6n 2019 Ireland v England Build Up Thread

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Can we not?

Yes.

We're not.

Move on.

Perifect

What a great welcome to the rugby forum!

troyzer

Perifect wrote: »

What a great welcome to the rugby forum!

Talk about rugby on the rugby forum.

To be fair though, you probably weren't to know how ball numbingly repetitive your post was.

Perifect

troyzer wrote: »

Talk about rugby on the rugby forum.

To be fair though, you probably weren't to know how ball numbingly repetitive your post was.

You seem like a nice, charming fella. I was talking about rugby. How was I to know there's a clique running this forum?

stephen_n

Clegg wrote: »

Adam Byrne has remained with the Ireland squad this week at Carton House. I'm delighted for him as earlier in the season it was hard to see him getting into the Leinster squad let alone the wider Irish one. Played mostly in the Celtic Cup for the A side before a few injuries moved him back to the senior team. Took his opportunity with both hands and hasn't looked back.

Although, he's only there due to Andrew Conway's injury. Looking into it a bit more I guess he's still not fully recovered.

Well Conway is back, so if he’s still there it’s not due to Conway’s absence any more.

Stheno

joseywhales wrote: »

Does that include children born in Ireland?

Lads ffs desist from quoting

awec

Perifect wrote: »

You seem like a nice, charming fella. I was talking about rugby. How was I to know there's a clique running this forum?

No clique, but you stumbled on a subject that has been done to the death and always ends up with pages of nonsense. Please read the charter, and don't question mod decisions on threads.


And welcome.

sydthebeat

So.....

Zebo for full back anyone???

bilston

Squidgy Black wrote: »

It'll never happen, but I'd love to see Ringrose play at 15. Great boot, really elusive and always finds a gap to make a line break. Superb defender as well.

They said that about BOD...and then he played there against Western Australia for the Lions (18 years ago f****g hell)...and he never played there again...

Dubinusa

Adam Byrne would be a surprise inclusion.
It's possible that we may see a little more of a spread this tourney?
Maybe 3 starting rotations every match?
I don't think it would harm us.

sydthebeat

Dubinusa wrote: »

Adam Byrne would be a surprise inclusion.
It's possible that we may see a little more of a spread this tourney?
Maybe 3 starting rotations every match?
I don't think it would harm us.

I think the closest we'll come to rotation is the 50/50 calls..... Aki or henshaw v England, and the recpricol v Scotland. Healy and Mcgrath might switch. Possibly even conan for cj in the France or Italy game. Addison may play a game or two at 15. Larmour will get game time on the wing I think.

Full strength though for Wales away.

The Lost Sheep

Dubinusa wrote: »

Adam Byrne would be a surprise inclusion.
It's possible that we may see a little more of a spread this tourney?
Maybe 3 starting rotations every match?
I don't think it would harm us.

We shouldnt rotate for the sake of rotation. There is nothing to be learnt from that
Not sure we necessarily will see more of a spread of players this year.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

We shouldnt rotate for the sake of rotation. There is nothing to be learnt from that
Not sure we necessarily will see more of a spread of players this year.

Apart from the Eng game, three rotations per the following four games would be about right. Which is rotation for the sake of proper game time for the backup squad, not for the sake of rotation.
Scannell, Beirne, Porter, SOB, Carbo, Farrell, Larmour, Conway, Jordi at 8, Addison everywhere, all have to get a full game or two. Add in the established Healy/McGrath, Best/Cronin, Hendie/Toner, VDF/SOB/Leavy, Aki/Henchie combos, and there is plenty of scope for meaningful developmental rotation, while retaining a useful interest in winning those games.
The scrumhalf situation is unfortunate. But there it is.

Podge_irl

Every single year people start muttering about more rotation and every single year it fails to materialise. Why does anyone think this will be different??

The Rape of Lucretia

Podge_irl wrote: »

Every single year people start muttering about more rotation and every single year it fails to materialise. Why does anyone think this will be different??

• Its a world cup year.
• 6N titles and Grand Slams have been ticked off at this stage. Not quite hum-dum, but another wont really change the history record of this team and Schmidts tenure.
• How they do in the world cup will crown it or leave an eternal black mark against it.
• Its Schmidts last year.
• Joe learns lesson. The last world cup quarter with a hobbled team was a lesson he learned. It has been a personal work-on for him since then to fix that.

Those are the reason it is different this time.

troyzer

Podge_irl wrote: »

Every single year people start muttering about more rotation and every single year it fails to materialise. Why does anyone think this will be different??

Because a long term injury can rule you out of the world cup unlike other years.

I don't expect much rotation outside horses for courses and the 50/50 calls. Carbery might get the start against France and Italy as well.

Clegg

I think people overestimate the importance of the World Cup to Ireland. Or rather, underestimate the Six Nations in a World Cup year. It's vital we do as well as we can every year. We're not going to rotate to build depth in such a tournament. We've already built the squad over the last three and a bit years.

joseywhales

An agressive aki tackle in the first 10 mins could do wonders against an England team set up to won collisions. He gives us gain line, we have plenty of footballers, including our tight head prop! I would have aki to start, itrespective of whether we can fit henshaw in or not.

baas baa

Non guaranteed first choicers I think could start at least one game are J.McGrath, Scannell, Porter, Beirne, Henderson, VDF, Leavy, Conan, Carbery, Aki, Larmour, Addison. Even at that I think it's pushing it.

The Rape of Lucretia

baas baa wrote: »

Non guaranteed first choicers I think could start at least one game are J.McGrath, Scannell, Porter, Beirne, Henderson, VDF, Leavy, Conan, Carbery, Aki, Larmour, Addison. Even at that I think it's pushing it.

Given the England game will be a first choice selection given that Eng are likely the strongest challenge, and that it comes first up, spreading that dozen among the 4 remaining games, thats three per game. About right. The details dont really matter. Its about giving experience in an almost first team, to a down or so key non first choicers where our coverage of experienced players is light.

CMcsporty

Not one to stick up on the old dressing room wall. More like mildly amusing.
John Mitchell
“Ireland are arguably the best in the world and, for me, are a side who – through their process being a well-coached side – are resilient and they will try to bore the s--- out of us basically,” Mitchell told BBC Sport.

“Ultimately, it will come down to a small piece of possession when you’re not focused that can hurt you, in a contest like this.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/01/28/englandassistant-coach-john-mitchell-stokes-six-nations-fire/

Burkie1203

CMcsporty wrote: »

Not one to stick up on the old dressing room wall. More like mildly amusing.
John Mitchell
“Ireland are arguably the best in the world and, for me, are a side who – through their process being a well-coached side – are resilient and they will try to bore the s--- out of us basically,” Mitchell told BBC Sport.

“Ultimately, it will come down to a small piece of possession when you’re not focused that can hurt you, in a contest like this.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/01/28/englandassistant-coach-john-mitchell-stokes-six-nations-fire/

Since Joe took over in 2013 Ireland have box kicked the ball more then anyone else

In the 6n teams, England were next.

Both have win the last 5 championships between them.

lbc2019

sydthebeat wrote: »

So.....

Zebo for full back anyone???

Sacre Bleu!

errlloyd

Ireland do more of virtually everything than every other team. We kick more, pass more, run more, maul more. We conceded way fewer penalties and turnovers that allows us to dominate any stat that can be a proxy for possession.

prawnsambo

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Since Joe took over in 2013 Ireland have box kicked the ball more then anyone else

Are you sure about that? Because the last time that was floated as a supposed statistic a couple of years ago, it was proven wrong. And iirc it was England that kicked the most. By a good margin.

The Rape of Lucretia

Its that old adage still valid since the dawn of rugby :

- box kicks win games, showy stuff by how much

lbc2019

Why are box kicks hated so much? They are very effective and worthwhile

accensi0n

errlloyd wrote: »

Ireland do more of virtually everything than every other team. We kick more, pass more, run more, maul more. We conceded way fewer penalties and turnovers that allows us to dominate any stat that can be a proxy for possession.

Win more.

Burkie1203

prawnsambo wrote: »

Are you sure about that? Because the last time that was floated as a supposed statistic a couple of years ago, it was proven wrong. And iirc it was England that kicked the most. By a good margin.

Box kicked stats. Article in paper over weekend. We also contested 20%-25% more then anyone else and it wasnt just 6n, it was all tests

Mr Tickle

baas baa wrote: »

Non guaranteed first choicers I think could start at least one game are J.McGrath, Scannell, Porter, Beirne, Henderson, VDF, Leavy, Conan, Carbery, Aki, Larmour, Addison. Even at that I think it's pushing it.

I agree, those guys will probably pick up a handful of starts between them. I just hope that it's not a case of firing them all in against Italy. We benefit a lot more from peppering them throughout the tournament.

I think we're down to only three positions where we are a little light on options (by which i mean guys who have played a few tier one games there and can be slotted in and out with minimal disruption).

10, 13 & 15 (and 9 if we're also missing Sexton)

I'd like to see Henshaw or Aki play some 13 just so we know how the options stack up there.

stephen_n

prawnsambo wrote: »

Are you sure about that? Because the last time that was floated as a supposed statistic a couple of years ago, it was proven wrong. And iirc it was England that kicked the most. By a good margin.

England kick more from hand overall but we Box kick more. Sexton has done very little kicking from hand over the last few seasons. When we kick, more often than not it’s Murray doing the kicking.

Perifect

Box kicking has worked really well for us. As has the garryowen. I just have a feeling we'll need something more come world cup time. It's happened before where we were caught off guard by something different.

vienne86

Perifect wrote: »

Box kicking has worked really well for us. As has the garryowen. I just have a feeling we'll need something more come world cup time. It's happened before where we were caught off guard by something different.

Box kicking has also worked well for us because Murray is brilliant at it.

Perifect

vienne86 wrote: »

Box kicking has also worked well for us because Murray is brilliant at it.

Yes, this is true. What if he has a bad day? Or gets injured at a bad time? Marmion did well against New Zealand but his kicking isn't in the same league as Murray's.

Jump_In_Jack

Mr Tickle wrote: »

I agree, those guys will probably pick up a handful of starts between them. I just hope that it's not a case of firing them all in against Italy. We benefit a lot more from peppering them throughout the tournament.

I think we're down to only three positions where we are a little light on options (by which i mean guys who have played a few tier one games there and can be slotted in and out with minimal disruption).

10, 13 & 15 (and 9 if we're also missing Sexton)

I'd like to see Henshaw or Aki play some 13 just so we know how the options stack up there.

Chris Farrell and Will Addison are the 13 backup for Ringrose.
I'd like to leave Henshaw and Aki at 12 from now to the World Cup.
Addison at 13 against Italy would be a good idea, along with only one or two other changes.
Farrell is good, but Addison is more similar to Ringrose than Farrell is, and that might suit the team better, less change to game plan if Addison slots in.

baas baa

If Addison starts I think it'll be at 15, Ringrose is miles ahead of the others at 13 and starts if fit, Kearney's age profile means alternatives need to be looked at and the juries out on Larmour after the Argentina game, Earls is also at the back end of his career so Larmour may very well end up 14.

Buer

vienne86 wrote: »

Box kicking has also worked well for us because Murray is brilliant at it.

He is but it's also an integral part of scrum half play in Ireland. I'd wager that the likes of Marmion and McGrath are better box kickers than the majority of starting test scrum halves. JGP couldn't box kick to save his life when he arrived in Ireland and now his kicking is pretty good. Any scrum half plying his trade here is obviously made work their arses off at their kicking game.

troyzer

Let's be realistic, Kearney is probably going to start on Saturday and be magnificent.

Former Former

vienne86 wrote: »

Box kicking has also worked well for us because Murray is brilliant at it.

There was a piece in the Sunday Times on, um, Sunday, about how Joe arrived into the Ireland job, decided that Murray's box kicking wasn't good enough and basically worked him and worked him until he got to where he is now.

Jump_In_Jack

baas baa wrote: »

If Addison starts I think it'll be at 15, Ringrose is miles ahead of the others at 13 and starts if fit, Kearney's age profile means alternatives need to be looked at and the juries out on Larmour after the Argentina game, Earls is also at the back end of his career so Larmour may very well end up 14.

The only reasons anyone other than Ringrose would be starting at 13 is if Ringrose were injured, or if it were to give someone a run there to prepare an alternative a bit in case Ringrose were to get injured during the World Cup.
Italy is the team for that experiment.
At 15 the players playing there regularly for club should be preferred, i.e. Larmour.
I'd have brought in Haley, as he has gotten very solid game time this season and has put in some good performances.
O'Halloran is the other option but Schmidt doesn't seem to have faith in him.

Mr Tickle

baas baa wrote: »

If Addison starts I think it'll be at 15, Ringrose is miles ahead of the others at 13 and starts if fit, Kearney's age profile means alternatives need to be looked at and the juries out on Larmour after the Argentina game, Earls is also at the back end of his career so Larmour may very well end up 14.

Oh i don't think anyone will overtake Ringrose. But we don't really know who's next in line. Farrell did well when he played but he's been injured a lot. We don''t have much of a sample size for him. Addison is good but when he played with Bundee it didn't really fire the way you'd like. Then again he was dropped in last minute so that's not the fairest test
Then you've got Tom Farrell though he's very much on the outskirts i imagine.

Ringrose has shown he gels well with Henshaw or Bundee (or Scannell and McCloskey).

For me I'd rather get our best two centres on the pitch and that's two of Henshaw, Bundee and Ringrose.

Henry Ford III

Is Kearney out?

If he is I'd favour Henshaw @15, with Aki and Ringrose in the centre.

We'd get a last line of defense who would show inclination to make a tackle, which would be a novelty.

I'd love to see Henshaw at 15 for a while to prove to everyone that getting beaten 1 on 1 at 15 is fairly common. Do people not remember him at 13 when he misread a few times and shot out giving australia an overlap.

joseywhales

I don't think it's physically possible for a human to gain "a stone of muscle" in three months. I mean mass is possible obviously but muscle?
Nevermind muscle that provides functional strength

Zzippy

Mr Tickle wrote: »

Oh i don't think anyone will overtake Ringrose. But we don't really know who's next in line. Farrell did well when he played but he's been injured a lot. We don''t have much of a sample size for him. Addison is good but when he played with Bundee it didn't really fire the way you'd like. Then again he was dropped in last minute so that's not the fairest test
Then you've got Tom Farrell though he's very much on the outskirts i imagine.

Ringrose has shown he gels well with Henshaw or Bundee (or Scannell and McCloskey).

For me I'd rather get our best two centres on the pitch and that's two of Henshaw, Bundee and Ringrose.

Chris Farrell is a 12 for me, doesn't have the footwork for 13. Tom Farrell has outplayed him both times they've come up against each other. He's got a better eye for a gap and makes line breaks look easy. I thought Addison did well for a guy who was dropped in at the last minute in November, hard to judge a partnership on that.

Depth chart for me would be:

12. Aki, Henshaw, Ringrose, C. Farrell, McCloskey
13. Ringrose, Henshaw, Addison, T. Farrell, C. Farrell

Henshaw covers both very well and some will argue he's no. 1 in the 12 depth chart, I'm happy with either. Ringrose only plays 12 if both Aki and Henshaw are out. If we're going to experiment for Italy I'd play Henshaw Addison or Farrell Ringrose. I wouldn't make wholesale changes.

troyzer

joseywhales wrote: »

I don't think it's physically possible for a human to gain "a stone of muscle" in three months. I mean mass is possible obviously but muscle?
Nevermind muscle that provides functional strength

No, it's not. Not when you're already an advanced lifter. He's talking absolute ****.

Squidgy Black

Zzippy wrote: »

Chris Farrell is a 12 for me, doesn't have the footwork for 13. Tom Farrell has outplayed him both times they've come up against each other. He's got a better eye for a gap and makes line breaks look easy. I thought Addison did well for a guy who was dropped in at the last minute in November, hard to judge a partnership on that.

Depth chart for me would be:

12. Aki, Henshaw, Ringrose, C. Farrell, McCloskey
13. Ringrose, Henshaw, Addison, T. Farrell, C. Farrell

Henshaw covers both very well and some will argue he's no. 1 in the 12 depth chart, I'm happy with either. Ringrose only plays 12 if both Aki and Henshaw are out. If we're going to experiment for Italy I'd play Henshaw Addison or Farrell Ringrose. I wouldn't make wholesale changes.

I'm amazed Chris Farrell hasn't been played as a 12 yet. He certainly has the build for it, and compared to our typical version of a 13 in Ireland (smaller player who's more of a playmaker than a hard carrier).

who_me

Perifect wrote: »

Box kicking has worked really well for us. As has the garryowen. I just have a feeling we'll need something more come world cup time. It's happened before where we were caught off guard by something different.

If your defence is solid (and ours - at provincial level as well as international - is up there with the best) then it's low risk. Kick the ball high enough, chase well, jump into the catcher so he doesn't get a clean catch, push up in a line so their only option is to kick their way out under pressure. Repeat until they make a mistake (then we have the ball... see you in 20 phases)

It is a bit one-dimensional and predictable. If a side has a solid back three and is prepared for it, we start to run out of options. Hopefully Schmidt has been 'stealing' more backline plays. (Every single time I watch Stander's try move vs England last year, I follow the wrong player. I know it's a trick play. I know who gets the ball. But every time I watch it I follow the wrong player. Every time.)

mangobob

who_me wrote: »

(Every single time I watch Stander's try move vs England last year, I follow the wrong player. I know it's a trick play. I know who gets the ball. But every time I watch it I follow the wrong player. Every time.)

Glad Im not the only one! Was watching it again yesterday for the umpteenth time and I still get bamboozled

The Parish King

Neither Shields or Te’o trained for England today, so it looks like Wilson and Slade will step in for Saturday (if they weren’t already expected to).

Wilson looked good during the Autumn, and I’ve never really been impressed by Shields.

Slade has the potential to be a good foil for Tuilagi (rather than the bash bash approach with Te’o beside him), however he’s never really stepped it up at Test level and I expect Ireland would be looking to target him.