6n 2019 Ireland v England Build Up Thread

reg114

Wegians89 wrote: »

Henshaw has the natural ability to thrive at 15, he’s brilliant under a high ball. If he can re adjust to the positioning aspect, I think he’ll be a huge asset going into the World Cup. He is a better tackler, stronger runner with ball in hand and possibly has more flair than Kearney. He’s the solid dependable player who joe has all the faith in the world in just like Kearney has/had. Get him in at 15 for the whole 6 nations if it works brilliant another dimension to Ireland’s attack for the World Cup.
While it was a few years ago he has played 15 in some big games for Connacht included beating Toulouse away, the first win in thomond park, and a home win against Munster

Have to agree with this. Kearney's strength has been best in the world under the high ball and generally very dependable over the long term without being dazzling. Indeed he's a very one dimensional player but because he's so dependable people overlook his lack of flair. He has been prone to lapses in defence and going forward he provides very little as an attacking force because he invariably runs directly into contact every single time. I believe Henshaws better footballing brain might add something extra in attack, if called upon.

reg114

ClanofLams wrote: »

Larmour is still young and learning his trade, struggled against Argentina in November.

Addison playing 13 most of the season, still relatively new to set up.

.

Agree with this. Larmour reminds me a bit of Zebo, lots of style and x factor but needs to strengthen his basics in defence.

Skidrow

Can anyone get access to the Captain's Run?
Is it always in the Aviva and the day before the match?

Buer

The one word of warning I'd suggest in relation to people getting very excited about Henshaw at 15 is that he is almost certainly going to be a Schmidt full back. I see very little in terms of flair being brought to the table.

If people are hoping he's going to be the guy who ran lines from deep, stepping defenders on bursts when he last played 15, I think they're going to be disappointed. He's a very different player at this stage and I can see him becoming a very, very similar full back to Kearney if he winds up there at this point. There's already a significant number of parallels in how they adjusted their games between their emergence in the professional game and their play when they became important players in the Irish team.

But if Henshaw gets to be anywhere near as important and good as RK has been in green, it will be a brilliant move for him and Ireland.

aloooof

Thinking out loud here, but could it be in anyway with a view towards possibility of facing SA in the RWC QF's? Having someone of Henshaw's size on the field then at FB could be beneficial (albeit in a position where it's less necessary).

sydthebeat

i see no circumstances that Henshaw starts at 15, other than Joe completely disregarding the 6N and looking to the world cup?

i cant even see a situation where henshaw would be in the 23 shirt, and joe was looking at cover for 15.
unless both Jordan and Will are carrying and injury and we dont know about it (where either woudl be better suited to 23).. but even saying that conway is a better option.

i pray to god its silly buggers

thomond2006

It's rare that a team selection that is widely reported ends up wrong.

Larbre34

Im delighted with this possibility. Its our one questionable area of depth, a big gulf between Kearney and his heir apparent, and while I feel we should have been seeing a lot more of Conway at fullback, Henshaw is by now a seasoned and confident performer and reader of the game, not to mention an absolute unit.

He has the potential to be an anchor in the role, fielding and distributing assuredly and bamboozling defences with cameo plays.

For my money, he shouldn't be deputising for Kearney come the RWC, it should be the other way round, if Kearney even travels at all.

That said, Kearney has been one of the great world players of the professional era, and justifiably the most decorated in Ireland. He will understand, perhaps more than anyone, that there is no room for sentiment in a cut-throat competitive world cup squad.

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's rare that a team selection that is widely reported ends up wrong.

It’s only 2 journos so far? One of whom I wouldn’t trust with directions to the toilet.

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

i see no circumstances that Henshaw starts at 15, other than Joe completely disregarding the 6N and looking to the world cup?

i cant even see a situation where henshaw would be in the 23 shirt, and joe was looking at cover for 15.
unless both Jordan and Will are carrying and injury and we dont know about it (where either woudl be better suited to 23).. but even saying that conway is a better option.

i pray to god its silly buggers

About a quarter of Henshaws career starts have come at 15, he's a lot more experienced there that on he was at 12 when Schmidt put him in there, having previously only played 15 and 13. He has also been training in the position the last couple of weeks under Schmidt.

For all the criticism Kearney has taken, in fairness to him his positioning is world class and it's a huge challenge for opposition 10s to find any space in the back field. I don't know if anyone could replace Kearney and be as effective in that regard but wouldn't have concerns about Henshaw generally, he will be fine.

Zzippy

sydthebeat wrote: »

i see no circumstances that Henshaw starts at 15, other than Joe completely disregarding the 6N and looking to the world cup?

i cant even see a situation where henshaw would be in the 23 shirt, and joe was looking at cover for 15.
unless both Jordan and Will are carrying and injury and we dont know about it (where either woudl be better suited to 23).. but even saying that conway is a better option.

i pray to god its silly buggers

I know it's been a while since he played 15, but he was twice the full back then that Conway has ever been, and he was just out of school. Larmour struggled against Argentina in November when given the chance, Addison has played very little at 15. I'm not one bit worried about Robbie there, he's a brilliant natural footballer and have always thought 15 was his best position.

Zzippy

stephen_n wrote: »

It’s only 2 journos so far? One of whom I wouldn’t trust with directions to the toilet.

Ah here! I'm sure he's well aquainted with the jacks given the amount of sh1t he puts out...

errlloyd

Also remember all that talk this time last year about Robbie losing weight. I think he has been slighting up for this for a while.

I'm extremely sceptical about this.

I also wont be second guessing Joe however.

sydthebeat

ClanofLams wrote: »

About a quarter of Henshaws career starts have come at 15, he's a lot more experienced there that on he was at 12 when Schmidt put him in there, having previously only played 15 and 13. He has also been training in the position the last couple of weeks under Schmidt.

For all the criticism Kearney has taken, in fairness to him his positioning is world class and it's a huge challenge for opposition 10s to find any space in the back field. I don't know if anyone could replace Kearney and be as effective in that regard but wouldn't have concerns about Henshaw generally, he will be fine.

career starts is one thing...

but he hasnt started a pro 14 level game in that position in over 3 years
he has never played in that position at test level
joe has deliberately played full backs on the wing before they learned the test level ropes
irelands defensive system is based on the foundation of the full back being positionally adept...... and Robbie has never been tested at this level yet.


it will make for exciting watching, if it happens, but it would be the most off the wall curveball "conservative joe" has ever thrown

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

career starts is one thing...

but he hasnt started a pro 14 level game in that position in over 3 years
he has never played in that position at test level
joe has deliberately played full backs on the wing before they learned the test level ropes
irelands defensive system is based on the foundation of the full back being positionally adept...... and Robbie has never been tested at this level yet.


it will make for exciting watching, if it happens, but it would be the most off the wall curveball "conservative joe" has ever thrown

If "Conservative Joe" is willing to go with it, don't think there's much reason for the rest of us to be worried.

Now that I think about it - I reckon Henshaw could be in the 23 jersey.

It would explain why he's probably been seen training at 15.

sydthebeat

ClanofLams wrote: »

If "Conservative Joe" is willing to go with it, don't think there's much reason for the rest of us to be worried.

absolutely....

what im questioning is the likelihood of it happening, and the advantage that i see from it.....

and as i said the only advantage i can see is a longer term view to the RWC, and / or theres a shed load of injuries / niggles we dont know about.

what i suspect has happened is joe was just hedging his bets and is so ultra detailed it would be remiss of him NOT to look at Robbie as possibly playing some time at 15 in a game... seeing as jordan at 23 might not be the strongest center replacement

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

Now that I think about it - I reckon Henshaw could be in the 23 jersey.

It would explain why he's probably been seen training at 15.

possibly.... but why wouldnt you have addison on the bench to cover 13 - 15?

look at the possible bench cover for center .... assuming earls and stockers starts

larmour (wing, full back and posssibly 13)
addison (possibly 11 -15)
carbery (can play 15... or sexton moves to 12, or vice versa)

is robbie to the bench covering 12, 13, and 15 a better option than any of those ??.... remembering that we'd then have no wing cover (kierans injured, John cooney is in)

I cant see it

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

absolutely....

what im questioning is the likelihood of it happening, and the advantage that i see from it.....

and as i said the only advantage i can see is a longer term view to the RWC, and / or theres a shed load of injuries / niggles we dont know about.

what i suspect has happened is joe was just hedging his bets and is so ultra detailed it would be remiss of him NOT to look at Robbie as possibly playing some time at 15 in a game... seeing as jordan at 23 might not be the strongest center replacement

Larmour can't start at 15 in light of the Argentina game. Addison plays 15 very rarely and hasn't been that long involved. Conway isn't a specialist full back either. Ther isn't really that much depth at 15. The advantage is that you get your best players on the pitch with the slight concern over Henshaws positioning.

Mr Tickle

Deleted User wrote: »

Now that I think about it - I reckon Henshaw could be in the 23 jersey.

It would explain why he's probably been seen training at 15.

I'm thinking along the same lines. Or Aki will be and Henshaw will move to accommodate him.

I think if we're looking for a score later in a game they could really add to our attacking threat.

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

is robbie to the bench covering 12, 13, and 15 a better option than any of those ??.... remembering that we'd then have no wing cover (kierans injured, John cooney is in)

POM, be grand.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

POM, be grand.

he wont get MOTM from there though

AdamD

errlloyd wrote: »

Also remember all that talk this time last year about Robbie losing weight. I think he has been slighting up for this for a while.

Have said this at the RDS a couple of times this season. Looks lighter on his feet.

vetinari

It'd be bizarre if Henshaw starts at 15.
As others have mentioned, that presumably would not be a long term position for him?
Or would it make him now the backup at full back to Kearney instead of Larmour, Addison or Conway?

Buer

Murray Kinsella possible team:

15. Robbie Henshaw
14. Keith Earls
13. Garry Ringrose
12. Bundee Aki
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best (captain)
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Devin Toner
5. James Ryan
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Josh van der Flier
8. CJ Stander

aloooof

It's an interesting one tho. If you take our starting backline from the AI's, most of those only play in their dedicated positions almost exclusively.

Murray - SH
Sexton - FH
Bundee, Ringrose - Centre
Earls, Stockdale - Wing
Kearney - FB

You'd have to add "at a push" to any of those playing a different position.

Given that we don't have someone as versatile as, say, Ben Smith starting, that means the more versatility you have on the bench, the better. That's why I was fully expecting Addison to get the 23 jersey tbh. If Henshaw starts at FB, I think it's probably more likely to be Conway or Larmour?

Have to admit, it does look nice with Robbie at 15, even if it doesn't make sense

sydthebeat

Cant wait for press questions after the announcement

Perifect

Winning the championship or grand slam again would be great but let's get real, the world cup is the big one this year. It's about building up for that and making sure we're ready. Kearney is nearly 33. He had an awful game at the weekend, one game alone can't end his career but he mightn't be up to it anymore. It's a possibility so we have to look for alternatives. Henshaw could be the best we have available. There's no doubt that he had some great games at 15 in his earlier days. Larmour could be great but he has a lot to learn. Can that be done before the world cup? He should start a game or two in this 6 nations.
There are other positions we need to look at. Obviously, hooker is the big one but we also need to test the back up partnerships. Marmion and Carberry should start one or two games together. Depending on the Henshaw situation, the back up centre partnership needs a run also. I think props, locks and backrows and wingers are fairly sorted.

Zzippy

aloooof wrote: »

It's an interesting one tho. If you take our starting backline from the AI's, most of those only play in their dedicated positions almost exclusively.

Murray - SH
Sexton - FH
Bundee, Ringrose - Centre
Earls, Stockdale - Wing
Kearney - FB

You'd have to add "at a push" to any of those playing a different position.

Given that we don't have someone as versatile as, say, Ben Smith starting, that means the more versatility you have on the bench, the better. That's why I was fully expecting Addison to get the 23 jersey tbh. If Henshaw starts at FB, I think it's probably more likely to be Conway or Larmour?

Marmion was the starting SH in the AIs. Covers wing too...

ClanofLams

aloooof wrote: »

It's an interesting one tho. If you take our starting backline from the AI's, most of those only play in their dedicated positions almost exclusively.

Murray - SH
Sexton - FH
Bundee, Ringrose - Centre
Earls, Stockdale - Wing
Kearney - FB

You'd have to add "at a push" to any of those playing a different position.

Given that we don't have someone as versatile as, say, Ben Smith starting, that means the more versatility you have on the bench, the better. That's why I was fully expecting Addison to get the 23 jersey tbh. If Henshaw starts at FB, I think it's probably more likely to be Conway or Larmour?

It'll be Larmour I think, done well off the bench previously, even at 13 in twickenham, most potential, most capable of coming on and making game changing play.

Former Former

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's rare that a team selection that is widely reported ends up wrong.

You could point out that it was reported by Cummiskey, and only then reported by the Indo. It's not in the print version. You could draw some conclusions from that...

aloooof

Zzippy wrote: »

Marmion was the starting SH in the AIs. Covers wing too...

My bad. Ya get away with nathin' round here.

aloooof

Perifect wrote: »

Marmion and Carberry should start one or two games together.

Can't see this happening. And imo, it'd be more beneficial to have Marmion and Sexton starting one game and/or Murray and Carbery another than Marmion and Carbery both starting together (outside of Italy).

Mr Tickle

ClanofLams wrote: »

It'll be Larmour I think, done well off the bench previously, even at 13 in twickenham, most potential, most capable of coming on and making game changing play.

Larmour's a good impact guy alright. Though if Henshaw is up to the job at 15. then you have more choice about who you bring off for him.

I really hope this isn't joe deciding to play games like Jones. I liked how we didn't do that.

Clegg

Most Irish outlets are saying Henshaw will start at 15. It's an odd move and completely goes against everything we know about Schmidt from the last 8 years in Ireland.

He's thrown the odd curve ball like bringing Payne and Henderson in from the cold to start against England. But they were slotting onto positions thry regularly played in. Henshaw hasn't bene a fullback in years. It's a big risk. And if he takes it we'll then have to reassess our thoughts on the Six Nations as a whole. We may see far more experimentation.

Burkie1203

Clegg wrote: »

Most Irish outlets are saying Henshaw will start at 15. It's an odd move and completely goes against everything we know about Schmidt from the last 8 years in Ireland.

He's thrown the odd curve ball like bringing Payne and Henderson in from the cold to start against England. But they were slotting onto positions thry regularly played in. Henshaw hasn't bene a fullback in years. It's a big risk. And if he takes it we'll then have to reassess our thoughts on the Six Nations as a whole. We may see far more experimentation.

This could be RWC squad prep. Players playing in more then 1 position add value.

Perifect

I basically called this already lads. Scannell will start ahead of Best and Cronin in one of the games also. Each game will have various tryouts.

ClanofLams

It’s one change. According to Murray Kinsella Henshaw has been doing some training with Ireland in full back position for the last couple of years.

Schmidt himself said he wanted to test him there in the 2017 Autumn internationals and I read earlier that Henshaw would have been tried in the position in 2018 autumn internationals but for injury.

It’s far far more likely that Schmidt thinks this is the right choice for the team than it is that this one change represents Schmidt suddenly willing to disregard the 6N and experimentation is gonna follow.

The leaps of logic on here recently over some decisions (Carty ahead of Byrne) or possible decisions in this case are bizarre.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

You could point out that it was reported by Cummiskey, and only then reported by the Indo. It's not in the print version. You could draw some conclusions from that...

It’s impossible to know. The senior rugby writer at the times is the guy who gets the team pre-embargo off the press office and is responsible for distributing it throughout the rest of the rugby writers (and “new media”). But it’s a day early for that.

It’s such a curve ball that id equally believe this is just the writers jumping the gun, worst thing that happens by getting this wrong is your article gets read more.

aloooof

Perifect wrote: »

I basically called this already lads.

Did you? I thought Zebo was the form FB, not Henshaw...

Perifect

aloooof wrote: »

Did you? I thought Zebo was the form FB, not Henshaw...

Yes, he clearly is but he won't be selected. Stated that numerous times.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I've heard Henshaw has been training at 15

Oh rly

Back of the line

Perifect

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh rly

Back of the line

Clegg wrote: »

Henshaw hasn't had a run of games at fullback in years. I think he got maybe 20 minutes there for Leisnter after an injury caused a backline reshuffle midgame. He looked decent, but that's not enough to throw him straight in for Ireland. It's not going to happen any time soon. He's a brilliant inside centre. That's his position now.

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Was that just for when Eddie Jones had his drone flying overhead

lbc2019 wrote: »

Will it likely be anyone except RK15 tho lads?

Podge_irl wrote: »

Every single year people start muttering about more rotation and every single year it fails to materialise. Why does anyone think this will be different??

vapor trails

I'm such an Ageist and I'll admit that straight away. That said Best is starting to throw in a few 5/10 performances recently. His throwing has become a bit more miss than hit. With Cronin dodgy in this facet of the game as well, It's a part of our game that could easily fall apart. If we had a better thrower I think it would open up our 2nd-row options a bit more in terms of selection. If Tadgh Beirne was fit for this game his performances for Munster should probably merit a start now in an Irish top.

Perifect

vapor trails wrote: »

I'm such an Ageist and I'll admit that straight away. That said Best is starting to throw in a few 5/10 performances recently. His throwing has become a bit more miss than hit. With Cronin dodgy in this facet of the game as well, It's a part of our game that could easily fall apart. If we had a better thrower I think it would open up our 2nd-row options a bit more in terms of selection. If Tadgh Beirne was fit for this game his performances for Munster should probably merit a start now in an Irish top.

You're not the only one seeing that. I highly doubt Best will travel to the world cup, nevermind start!

aloooof

Perifect wrote: »

You're not the only one seeing that. I highly doubt Best will travel to the world cup, nevermind start!

You'd be highly wrong.

(But really, I think the jig is up).

Dwarf.Shortage

vapor trails wrote: »

I'm such an Ageist and I'll admit that straight away. That said Best is starting to throw in a few 5/10 performances recently. His throwing has become a bit more miss than hit. With Cronin dodgy in this facet of the game as well, It's a part of our game that could easily fall apart. If we had a better thrower I think it would open up our 2nd-row options a bit more in terms of selection. If Tadgh Beirne was fit for this game his performances for Munster should probably merit a start now in an Irish top.

Reality is James Ryan is an autopick, then Toner, Henderson and Beirne only have one slot. No matter who wears the 2 jersey we've got a colossal good problem in the second row. I imagine Joe will just prioritise what he needs most in a given game be it a strong line out (bean pole), another ball carrier (man child) or another poacher (Octopus Beirne) and goes with that.

Cronin is playing the rugby of his life but you can't start him for Ireland with the intention of bringing Best on and it's a big risk to assume a front row will get 80. I think if Best is gonna lose his slot he has to fall behind both Cronin and Scannail, his inability to come on combined with the fact you generally go through 2 hookers in a game creates a unique dynamic where if Best is second in the pecking order he still starts.

That he is captain only compounds this.

Perifect

aloooof wrote: »

You'd be highly wrong.

(But really, I think the jig is up).

How do you know?