General home automation questions

ifaour

Hi, I would like to get into house automation for both the fun of it but more importantly efficiency. Here's my house layout:
1. 3 bedroom 2 story A-rated new house
2. 2 heating zones (upstairs, downstairs) and 1 hot water (combi boiler, Vokera - vision 20s)
3. we have master bedroom which we all use (me, wife and baby), guest bedroom we rarely use (radiator is off in it), small office room that I use a couple of times a week (radiator is on at 1/2 power)
4. thermostat upstairs is in the landing .. which is awkward since I actually care about master bedroom's temperature the most (unless when we have guests)

Automation ideas/questions
Lights
- I need to put a motion sensor operated lights in the landing, hallway and probably kitchen
- I would like to have a smart light in the master bedroom that can act as a night light (VERY dim) when I wave in a specific location (if the baby wakes up and we need to pick her up from the crib) so very specific motion zone detection

For the above, it seems that like the ikea TRÅDFRI stuff could work, but I wonder if a smartthings hub along with motion sensors and smart lights would be better for the future (e.g. if I needed smart plugs .. etc)?


Heating
As mentioned the house is A-rated, so no point (right?) in investing in one of the very expensive systems (Nest, Hive .. etc) especially since I have a 2 zone + 1 hot water. But what I need really:
- mobile app tracking (of temperature) and control
- tracking of heat consumption (if possible) to do some data analysis
- track room temp. (especially master bedroom where baby is asleep)

For the above, it seems I might need either temp sensors along with smart heating or smart radiator valves.

I'm fine with investing in one of the smart heating systems if it's proven they are economical long term (EVEN for a-rated houses) like drayton wiser or another system that support multi-zone without breaking the bank

Im exploring Sonoff a bit (still wrapping me head around it) and im not afraid going that route since I'm a software engineer and I can learn how this stuff work but I also want a sleek looking solution after all.


sorry for the long post, please quote and answer whatever you can, thanks!

ted1

What’s your heating , is it a heat pump ?

ifaour

ted1 wrote: »

What’s your heating , is it a heat pump ?

combi boiler, I updated the original post.

It's worth noting that I don't want to invest a huge amount of money on this unless it's required (e.g. probably not a smart heating system, but a hub like the smartthings and something like sonoff if they work together .. etc)

bk

ifaour wrote: »

Automation ideas/questions
Lights
- I need to put a motion sensor operated lights in the landing, hallway and probably kitchen
- I would like to have a smart light in the master bedroom that can act as a night light (VERY dim) when I wave in a specific location (if the baby wakes up and we need to pick her up from the crib) so very specific motion zone detection

For the above, it seems that like the ikea TRÅDFRI stuff could work, but I wonder if a smartthings hub along with motion sensors and smart lights would be better for the future (e.g. if I needed smart plugs .. etc)?

Rather then "very specific motion zone detection" I'd just use a wireless button on the bedside to turn on a smart light in a night light mode.

Motion sensors (PIR) of these type simply aren't specific at all and I don't think it would work well.

You could perhaps cobble together something with a cheap chinese IP cameras, Home assistant and a RaspberryPi with zone detection, but overkill when a simple wireless button would do the same at a fraction of the cost and probably more reliably.

Note you could get two wireless switches, one for your side of the bed and one for your missus, if that is a concern.

I've a preference for Philips Hue lighting system to do this. Very impressed by their software and ecosystem. Ikea would also likely do the job, but it is definitely a cheaper system. If this is your only use, then it would be fine, but if you expand to other rooms later I'd go with Hue.

SmartThings could do it too, but I find it less reliable. BTW SmartThings, Philips Hue and Ikea all use Zigbee, so they are all partly compatible with one another, sort of...

Ikea BTW has smart plugs too now. Though I wouldn't worry too much about that given how cheap and impressive wifi plugs have gotten.

ifaour wrote: »

Heating
As mentioned the house is A-rated, so no point (right?) in investing in one of the very expensive systems (Nest, Hive .. etc) especially since I have a 2 zone + 1 hot water. But what I need really:
- mobile app tracking (of temperature) and control
- tracking of heat consumption (if possible) to do some data analysis
- track room temp. (especially master bedroom where baby is asleep)

Given your requirements above, you are basically going to want one of the smart thermostats. They do all the above.

No, given your A rated house, you may not save a lot or money with them. Perhaps not even enough to pay for them! But I would look at them as more of an investment in convenience and comfort, rather then pure money saving.

bk

ifaour wrote: »

combi boiler, I updated the original post.

It's worth noting that I don't want to invest a huge amount of money on this unless it's required (e.g. probably not a smart heating system, but a hub like the smartthings and something like sonoff if they work together .. etc)

So when you say you have a hot water zone, it isn't really a controlled zone. You don't turn something on to heat the water, instead the hotwater simply flows from the taps when you turn it on?

If the above is the case, then it is the same as my setup and I'd recommend you look at Netatmo. Two Netatmo thermostats would cover your two heating zones and you could optionally add smart TVR's too if you want.

Netatmo is wireless so you could place the actual thermostat in the bedroom.

It also isn't very expensive, I just paid £99 for mine.

ifaour

bk wrote: »

Rather then "very specific motion zone detection" I'd just use a wireless button on the bedside to turn on a smart light in a night light mode.

Motion sensors (PIR) of these type simply aren't specific at all and I don't think it would work well.

You could perhaps cobble together something with a cheap chinese IP cameras, Home assistant and a RaspberryPi with zone detection, but overkill when a simple wireless button would do the same at a fraction of the cost and probably more reliably.

Note you could get two wireless switches, one for your side of the bed and one for your missus, if that is a concern.

I've a preference for Philips Hue lighting system to do this. Very impressed by their software and ecosystem. Ikea would also likely do the job, but it is definitely a cheaper system. If this is your only use, then it would be fine, but if you expand to other rooms later I'd go with Hue.

SmartThings could do it too, but I find it less reliable. BTW SmartThings, Philips Hue and Ikea all use Zigbee, so they are all partly compatible with one another, sort of...

Ikea BTW has smart plugs too now. Though I wouldn't worry too much about that given how cheap and impressive wifi plugs have gotten.

Thanks, if I go with Philips system I will need their bridge correct? (I will track this kit in case there's a big price drop or lighting deal)
And if so, does it work like the smartthing hub (for other purposes) or am I mixing things up?

bk wrote: »

Given your requirements above, you are basically going to want one of the smart thermostats. They do all the above.

No, given your A rated house, you may not save a lot or money with them. Perhaps not even enough to pay for them! But I would look at them as more of an investment in convenience and comfort, rather then pure money saving.

That's fair. The competition is fierce now so I'm hoping huge price cuts (similar to the echo dots..etc) or even new technology and players coming in later this year .. so will wait and see

I will wait for few more suggestions this ask for specific specs for the lighting system.

ifaour

bk wrote: »

So when you say you have a hot water zone, it isn't really a controlled zone. You don't turn something on to heat the water, instead the hotwater simply flows from the taps when you turn it on?

If the above is the case, then it is the same as my setup and I'd recommend you look at Netatmo. Two Netatmo thermostats would cover your two heating zones and you could optionally add smart TVR's too if you want.

Netatmo is wireless so you could place the actual thermostat in the bedroom.

It also isn't very expensive, I just paid £99 for mine.

Thanks, I attached a photo of my controller .. I think I can control hot water as well but I'm no expert and I'm doubting myself now.

bk

ifaour wrote: »

Thanks, if I go with Philips system I will need their bridge correct? (I will track this kit in case there's a big price drop or lighting deal)
And if so, does it work like the smartthing hub (for other purposes) or am I mixing things up?

Yep, you will need the Hue bridge.

The Hue Bridge only works with lighting (and the motion sensors and switches to control it), but their range of lighting devices is now in the hundreds!

It doesn't work with other non lighting devices (though you can connect Ikea bulbs and other Zigbee bulbs too it). You can also connect the Hue bridge to the smartthings hub, so that you can create merged routines their. But no, Hue doesn't directly control non lighting devices.

But at the cloud level, Hue works with pretty much everything. For instance I've a Smart alarm system. If someone breaks in, all my Hue lights will start flashing red throughout the house. I've also got Nest protect smoke alarms, if it detects smoke all the Hue lights will switch on to help escape, etc.

As a software engineer myself, Hue's API's and level of integration is fantastic, best in the smart home industry, I'm very impressed by their work.

That isn't to say that others can't work too or don't have their uses, etc. Just that Hue is pretty much the tip top IME.

ifaour wrote: »

That's fair. The competition is fierce now so I'm hoping huge price cuts (similar to the echo dots..etc) or even new technology and players coming in later this year .. so will wait and see

I will wait for few more suggestions this ask for specific specs for the lighting system.

Amazon Prime sales are always the best time to pick up these sort of devices. Though Brexit might muck things up this year!

bk

ifaour wrote: »

Thanks, I attached a photo of my controller .. I think I can control hot water as well but I'm no expert and I'm doubting myself now.

Hmm... I'm not sure so.

Do you ever actually use that hot water button? Or does hot water just flow when you use the taps/shower?

In particular in summer when the heating isn't on. Do you have to hit this button to get hot water?

ted1

bk wrote: »

Hmm... I'm not sure so.

Do you ever actually use that hot water button? Or does hot water just flow when you use the taps/shower?

In particular in summer when the heating isn't on. Do you have to hit this button to get hot water?

I’d assume an a rated house would have solar panels. Possible tubes.

OP have you solar hot water?

ifaour

bk wrote: »

Hmm... I'm not sure so.

Do you ever actually use that hot water button? Or does hot water just flow when you use the taps/shower?

In particular in summer when the heating isn't on. Do you have to hit this button to get hot water?

I don't touch that, but it's a scheduler and for instance when we were traveling and had the gas and most of the house shutdown - when we came back I turned everything back on but also clicked the "+HR" to turn on the hot water booster for an hour to heat the water. Hope this clarify things.

ifaour

ted1 wrote: »

I’d assume an a rated house would have solar panels. Possible tubes.

OP have you solar hot water?

I do have solar panels and I "hope" they are working (never touched them and barely went into the hot press room).

bk

ifaour wrote: »

I don't touch that, but it's a scheduler and for instance when we were traveling and had the gas and most of the house shutdown - when we came back I turned everything back on but also clicked the "+HR" to turn on the hot water booster for an hour to heat the water. Hope this clarify things.

Not sure. You'll have to do a bit more digging so.

The way a combi boiler usually works, the boiler is always on, but not necessarily heating the rads. All the hotwater taps/showers are connected directly to the boiler. When you turn on the hotwater tap, the boiler detects the flow of water through the pipes attached to it and starts heating the water as it flows by.

Thus their isn't really a separate hotwater zone as such and no pre-heating of the water. At least that is how it works with my Combi boiler.

So it is strange you have this button to heat water with a combi boiler.

Some combi boilers do have a tank in the boiler, which acts like a cache for water (:D) but you'd normally not control it as such. Perhaps that is what this button is for, maybe for preheating this "cache".

Or maybe the button isn't doing anything and it was just the electricians using what they already had and it isn't connected!

You may need to investigate your setup further, get the manual for your boiler or perhaps even get an RGI out to take a look and advise on what you can do.

As an aside, it is really stupid that a very modern, A rated, expensive homes don't come with connected smart thermostats and wireless thermostats.

L1011

bk wrote: »

Ikea BTW has smart plugs too now. Though I wouldn't worry too much about that given how cheap and impressive wifi plugs have gotten.

My preference would be for Zigbee smart plugs as it reduces your potential attack surface should they turn out to be as insecure as most cheap "IOT" devices. Generally if you have a matching Zigbee gateway and plug provider any firmware updates are managed from one place also.

That's the general (CTE or something) two zone + water controller nearly every installer in Ireland seems to fit, so its very plausible they were just using stock. Is it definitely a combi boiler, as described by bk above, or is it just a hot water zone from a normal condenser boiler?

ifaour

L1011 wrote: »

My preference would be for Zigbee smart plugs as it reduces your potential attack surface should they turn out to be as insecure as most cheap "IOT" devices. Generally if you have a matching Zigbee gateway and plug provider any firmware updates are managed from one place also.

That's the general (CTE or something) two zone + water controller nearly every installer in Ireland seems to fit, so its very plausible they were just using stock. Is it definitely a combi boiler, as described by bk above, or is it just a hot water zone from a normal condenser boiler?

This is the one I got:
https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/productinfo/vokera/vision-20s

I guess this is a condenser system after all? And if so what does that mean?
What’s with the extra hot water zone on my controller theb if it means nothing

L1011

Basically all boilers are condensors now - but that isn't a combi. Your hot water is going to be a zone controlled by a motorised valve just like the two heating zones; heating a tank of water via a heat exchanger. Basically the old fashioned method, but with the ability to do it without heating the radiators. This wouldn't be the most common setup in new houses but its incredibly common.

You will need a system that can control this - I don't know if Netatmo can purely because I don't have one. Nest is able to at least.

edit: triple check that you have the System Boiler version of it as they make a combi version of it.

ted1

ifaour wrote: »

This is the one I got:
https://www.boilerguide.co.uk/productinfo/vokera/vision-20s

I guess this is a condenser system after all? And if so what does that mean?
What’s with the extra hot water zone on my controller theb if it means nothing

You solar system should be providing enough water do you dint actual need to use the boiler

bk

L1011 wrote: »

You will need a system that can control this - I don't know if Netatmo can purely because I don't have one. Nest is able to at least.

Netatmo unfortunately doesn't support the traditional Irish hot water zones of a System boiler. OP will have to look at one of the others that do, Nest, Hive, Tado, etc.

ifaour

ted1 wrote: »

You solar system should be providing enough water do you dint actual need to use the boiler

I'm not so sure, during this weather? how is that possible? I tried to turn off the boiler hot water timer and was left with no hot water, the highest the panels went up to was 29 degrees today which wouldn't be enough to provide hot water, right?

L1011 wrote: »

Basically all boilers are condensors now - but that isn't a combi. Your hot water is going to be a zone controlled by a motorised valve just like the two heating zones; heating a tank of water via a heat exchanger. Basically the old fashioned method, but with the ability to do it without heating the radiators. This wouldn't be the most common setup in new houses but its incredibly common.

You will need a system that can control this - I don't know if Netatmo can purely because I don't have one. Nest is able to at least.

edit: triple check that you have the System Boiler version of it as they make a combi version of it.

Thanks, I believe it's the condenser one that I got.

I will pass on smart heating now and focus on smart lighting, checking HASS.IO (got an old rasp pi around) and few other options but might just go with Philips Hue Bridge after all if I don't find the time to hack something out.

Henrys Grimey Paws

I have the same controller & boiler as you OP. Similar setup, 3 zones, heating upstairs & downstairs and HW with solar panels on the roof to aid heating the water.

I went for the Nest Thermostat E for my heating, it's simple to install yourself. You replace your existing thermostats with the 'Heatlink E', the thermostat itself communicates with this wirelessly to switch on and off the heating and you can place it anywhere. You then set the heating to always on on your programmer so that the nest is controlling your heating.

You'll need a nest thermostat for each of your heating zones, the Thermostat E doesn't control hot water but I just have HW schedule setup on our programmer that meets our needs.

bk

Henrys Grimey Paws wrote: »

You'll need a nest thermostat for each of your heating zones, the Thermostat E doesn't control hot water but I just have HW schedule setup on our programmer that meets our needs.

I thought Nest supported hot water zones? You might ba able to get Nest to control your hot water too in this setup.

If the OP goes the same way (leaving the programmer continue to control hot water). Then Netatmo is also an option here, instead of Nest.

Both seem like great options.

EDIT: Ah I see you got the Nest Thermostat E, that doesn't support hotwater zones. The original Nest does support hot water zones. You may not need that, just FYI.

L1011

Only the third gen (and I'd assume future generations) of the original Nest supports it

digitaldr

L1011 wrote: »

Basically all boilers are condensors now - but that isn't a combi. Your hot water is going to be a zone controlled by a motorised valve just like the two heating zones; heating a tank of water via a heat exchanger. Basically the old fashioned method, but with the ability to do it without heating the radiators. This wouldn't be the most common setup in new houses but its incredibly common.

You will need a system that can control this - I don't know if Netatmo can purely because I don't have one. Nest is able to at least.

edit: triple check that you have the System Boiler version of it as they make a combi version of it.

If you have a large hot water tank eg in the hotpress then you have a system boiler. We looked into getting a combi boiler but decided against it because it probably wouldn't have coped with the amount of simultaneous power showers we wanted to run. They work best in countries where there is a guaranteed minimum mains pressure - ie not Ireland. Since it's against regulations to pump your mains it's often necessary to add an additional tank (break tank) and pump the water from that to the combi. This adds extra complexity to the system and there's always the risk of no heating and hot water if the break tank is incorrectly sized. One of the advantages of combis is that you don't have to accommadate a hot water tank - having to fit a break tank kind of negates this.

ifaour

digitaldr wrote: »

If you have a large hot water tank eg in the hotpress then you have a system boiler. We looked into getting a combi boiler but decided against it because it probably wouldn't have coped with the amount of simultaneous power showers we wanted to run. They work best in countries where there is a guaranteed minimum mains pressure - ie not Ireland. Since it's against regulations to pump your mains it's often necessary to add an additional tank (break tank) and pump the water from that to the combi. This adds extra complexity to the system and there's always the risk of no heating and hot water if the break tank is incorrectly sized. One of the advantages of combis is that you don't have to accommadate a hot water tank - having to fit a break tank kind of negates this.

Yes, I do have the water tank in the hot press.

Im really confused as my thermostat controller has a hot water control (scheduler) so I’m guessing what it does is, boiler heat the water (gas) and fill that water in the water tank in the hot press (?)

bk

digitaldr wrote: »

If you have a large hot water tank eg in the hotpress then you have a system boiler. We looked into getting a combi boiler but decided against it because it probably wouldn't have coped with the amount of simultaneous power showers we wanted to run. They work best in countries where there is a guaranteed minimum mains pressure - ie not Ireland. Since it's against regulations to pump your mains it's often necessary to add an additional tank (break tank) and pump the water from that to the combi. This adds extra complexity to the system and there's always the risk of no heating and hot water if the break tank is incorrectly sized. One of the advantages of combis is that you don't have to accommadate a hot water tank - having to fit a break tank kind of negates this.

Yes, that all makes sense and very interesting.

I've a combi boiler, but I live in an apartment. There is a massive water tank in the basement of the building (like about the size of a large truck container) and large pump which in turn feeds the combi boiler in each apartment. It is a very interesting setup, but not common for Ireland as you say.

bk

ifaour wrote: »

Yes, I do have the water tank in the hot press.

Im really confused as my thermostat controller has a hot water control (scheduler) so I’m guessing what it does is, boiler heat the water (gas) and fill that water in the water tank in the hot press (?)

I'm not a plumber, but my understanding is that normally with this sort of setup, their is a motorised valve between the boiler and the hotwater tank which controls the flow of hotwater to the tank.

So when you hit the hotwater advance button (or it turns on per schedule), the motorised valve is opened so hotwater can flow to the cylinder and the boiler is switched on to heat the water (if not already on).

Your setup would look something like the following, though you also have solar, so that would complicate it a bit too:

L1011

The solar should just be a second heat exchanger coil in the tank - when I got my tank replaced I got one with a secondary coil for a potential future solar install for that purpose. So it doesn't really confuse the drawing much.

Basically if the tank is hot from solar, the thermostat on the tank will close the motorised valve meaning it won't turn on the gas; even if timed to do so. If the tank isn't hot, it will heat from the gas.

Calibos

L1011 wrote: »

The solar should just be a second heat exchanger coil in the tank - when I got my tank replaced I got one with a secondary coil for a potential future solar install for that purpose. So it doesn't really confuse the drawing much.

Basically if the tank is hot from solar, the thermostat on the tank will close the motorised valve meaning it won't turn on the gas; even if timed to do so. If the tank isn't hot, it will heat from the gas.

Only learned recently that a heat exchange coil is how the boiler heats the hot water cylinder. (We have a leak in the flow pipe into the cylinder coil)

Given our gas bill is bi monthly €150 outside of central heating months and we cook with the gas too, just goes to show that solar water heating would take a long time to pay for itself seeing as it looks like it would only save us €50 a month or thereabouts. EG. Lets assume estimated bills confuse things and my average non CH bill is €200. Monthly = €100. Say 50% of that is gas cooking. So €50 a month is water heating. Lets assume Solar Water heating manages to heat all our water to 60º all the time and the boiler never needs to top up the heat in the Cylinder. The Solar water heater would save us €50 month. Given the bloody things cost from 3-5 grand it'd take 8 years just to pay for itself. However, they aren't 100% efficient 100% of the year (60% savings on average over the year according to the SEAI) so I'd likely save a lot less than €50 a month stretching out pay back much longer to about 15 years. The things need to be replaced after 20 years don't they?? To hell with that!! My carbon footprint is already much much lower than the rest of you feckers anyway because I have only flown to 3 places in Europe my entire life and hardly ever use my car. So I'm going to continue heating my water with gas!! LOL.

ie. It's not something I think I'll plan for should I need to replace my hot water cylinder for example.

L1011

My gas bill for water heating *and* the hob over the summer last year was €84 of which about €40 was standing charges etc, for 4 months! Very highly insulated water tank, two males in the house (women take longer showers normally) so below average water heating costs.

If you have cleaning devices (dishwasher, washing machine) that have hot inputs, your running costs of those can reduce but - they haven't made those in any great volume in years.

Have drifted rather severely off-topic now though.