Is accountability alien to our public sector?

PhilOssophy

Firstly, it is important to say that I do not mean this as an attack on the public sector, the majority of which do a fine job in in some cases very tough environments.

But hearing Simon Harris say today that the PWC report into the childrens hospital should find nobody personally accountable for the failures on the project to date.

This follows hot on the heels of a scandal which cost people their lives in the cervical cancer scandal - public servants knew that women were terminally ill and didn't compel doctors to tell these women. 1 person retired, and swanned off with a big pension.

This follows many previous scandals involving Gardai, Tusla, and many more state agencies who have been embroiled in various scandals over the years.

This all got me thinking, what does somebody in the public sector have to do to be held accountable for incompetence, mis-management, etc.

Are the lines of accountability simply too blurred for any 1 individual to be held accountable?
I have a friend who is a QS who said if they under-estimated something of the scale of the childrens hospital, they would be clearing their desk the minute the error was noticed. Why isn't this happening?

I appreciate mistakes happen. We all make them. But this isn't a simple error on a calculator. This is a reckless careless indifferent attitude to how tax payers money is spent. It is such a poor lack of oversight that surely at some point in this country somebody has to shout enough is enough.

If we are ever to stop messes like this happening over and over again, at some point, surely people need to start paying for their mistakes with their job.

If nobody is held accountable for these sort of mistakes, then surely all that is going to happen next time is another 450k (is the cost of that even certain) into the pockets of PWC and another report to just gather dust beside the other reports gathering dust?

Fann Linn

The day Ministers and politicians take responsibility is the day the PS can be held accountable.

Don't hold your breath.

Ash.J.Williams

that childrens hospital was a minor oversight




(Wonder did harris know)

mikeecho

Is accountability alien to our public sector?

Yes.

No need for a poll.






End

PhilOssophy

mikeecho wrote: »

Yes.

No need for a poll.






End

Where did I mention anything about a poll? It is a discussion.

mikeecho

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Where did I mention anything about a poll? It is a discussion.

You can't beat a good poll




End

conorhal

Uh, yeah. And always has been. I'd argue it's endemic to Irish culture, we like to pretend it comes from the top down, but really it's bottom up. You only have to peruse the court papers to see how our whole culture is utterly devoid of the concept of personal responsibility.

PMC999

There is no accountability in the public sector because they have jobs for life.
If you cannot suffer the ultimate sanction of being fired it is no surprise that there is no accountability.
Public sector unions are as guilty as our politicians for allowing this madness to continue.

PingTing comes for Fire

Is accountability public sector to aliens?

RobbingBandit

Health sector more like. Medical misadventure what a fun misnomer

uck51js9zml2yt

mikeecho wrote: »

You can't beat a good poll




End

Is that like a mass?

Poor Uncle Tom

Accountability isn't alien to the Public Sector but I do think it takes a back seat to greed.

Rubberchikken

of course there's no accountability.
whats the point in a discussion - its a known fact.

Edward M

mikeecho wrote: »

You can't beat a good poll




End

Of course you can. .
Accountability should eventually stop with the minister and Govt responsible.
All this has been signed off by them, all an enquiry will do is try to shift the blame further down the line, hence the wording that this shouldn't be about personal accountability.
Interesting listening to that twat Donnelly from FF on the six one too, he said if it wasn't for brexit there would be a totally different response from FF and they would be seeking accountability from the minister and Govt, virtually saying they would collapse the Govt over this but for brexit.
Gutless cowards in FF too to let this go without looking for heads now.

mad muffin

You don’t pay the garlic tax you get the hose…

Wheeliebin30

Edward M wrote: »

Of course you can. .
Accountability should eventually stop with the minister and Govt responsible.
All this has been signed off by them, all an enquiry will do is try to shift the blame further down the line, hence the wording that this shouldn't be about personal accountability.
Interesting listening to that twat Donnelly from FF on the six one too, he said if it wasn't for brexit there would be a totally different response from FF and they would be seeking accountability from the minister and Govt, virtually saying they would collapse the Govt over this but for brexit.
Gutless cowards in FF too to let this go without looking for heads now.

There some hypocrites considering the port tunnel was budgeted at 400 million but came in at 850 million under FF.

Ultimate hypocrisy.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Edward M wrote: »

Of course you can. .
Accountability should eventually stop with the minister and Govt responsible.
All this has been signed off by them, all an enquiry will do is try to shift the blame further down the line, hence the wording that this shouldn't be about personal accountability.
Interesting listening to that twat Donnelly from FF on the six one too, he said if it wasn't for brexit there would be a totally different response from FF and they would be seeking accountability from the minister and Govt, virtually saying they would collapse the Govt over this but for brexit.
Gutless cowards in FF too to let this go without looking for heads now.

That’s totally wrong. The politicians may be somewhat responsible but in general they don’t micro manage these services or the day to day administration

Silentcorner

We don't do standards in Irish society...Banking, Health, Media, Education, Judiciary, Political...you name, we will find a way to f##k it up...we lack self awareness as a people, which doesn't help either!

Your Face

'Discussion'

Silentcorner

Edward M wrote: »

Of course you can. .
Accountability should eventually stop with the minister and Govt responsible.
All this has been signed off by them, all an enquiry will do is try to shift the blame further down the line, hence the wording that this shouldn't be about personal accountability.
Interesting listening to that twat Donnelly from FF on the six one too, he said if it wasn't for brexit there would be a totally different response from FF and they would be seeking accountability from the minister and Govt, virtually saying they would collapse the Govt over this but for brexit.
Gutless cowards in FF too to let this go without looking for heads now.

FF don't have the money for an election, Brexit or no Brexit...that is why they didn't fight the presidential election, they have to fight the locals and european elections this year.

They are a cancer in Irish political life.

bleary

PhilOssophy wrote: »

This follows hot on the heels of a scandal which cost people their lives in the cervical cancer scandal - public servants knew that women were terminally ill and didn't compel doctors to tell these women. 1 person retired, and swanned off with a big pension. /quote]

Sorry that is not true, it is not the case that they weren't told they were terminally ill.
It is the case that when their files were rechecked after a cervical cancer diagnosis, some screens showed indications of cancer. This should have been communicated to patients but wasn't ,a disgrace but very different from your assertion.

Edward M

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s totally wrong. The politicians may be somewhat responsible but in general they don’t micro manage these services or the day to day administration

This children's hospital thing is FGs Bertie Bowl.
Of course they're responsible, how could you not see prices increasing so dramatically without doing detailed research in to it before now.
The brainwashed always accept excuses as it's not as bad as you think or some such.
This is bound to affect other services, and the already hard pressed health services.
And they're refusing to give anything to the nurses, they don't matter, just the big shiny FG children's hospital, a lasting monument that they can put on their posters for generations.

ankles

What there isn't in the public sector is the payoff. In the private sector, as in the public sector, ordinary staff do their thing, some good some not so good, but they can't do too much damage. As you move up the private sector and get near the top, the responsibility, and the pay, get a lot bigger. So what happens then if you f**k up. They do some version of fire you/suspend you and eventually pay you off somewhere near the steps of the court, or earlier if they are sensible and avoid the lawyers. In the public sector there is no stomach to pay off senior civil servants. Partly because there is a mutual reliance pact between civil servants and politicians, and partly because everyone would be hung out to dry for the publicly disclosed payoff of the idiot concerned, rather than the hushed up approach in the private sector. It's actually quite hard to fire people in the private sector as well. All this talk about firing civil servants is quite funny actually, as though it's par for the course in the private sector

dxhound2005

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Firstly, it is important to say that I do not mean this as an attack on the public sector,

Yes you do.

n97 mini

ankles wrote: »

It's actually quite hard to fire people in the private sector as well.

Relatively speaking it's not. Of all the people fired from their jobs in 2018 what was the ratio of public vs private, considering the public sector is around 18% of the workforce. From memory the high profile cases all retired first, which is the public sector equivalent of "the payoff" you mention.

RustyNut

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

There some hypocrites considering the port tunnel was budgeted at 400 million but came in at 850 million under FF.

Ultimate hypocrisy.

FG are outdoing them on every level. Incompitence, corruption, wasting tax payers money and now a report designed to protect their ministers and cronies.

New politics my asre.

ankles

n97 mini wrote: »

Relatively speaking it's not. Of all the people fired from their jobs in 2018 what was the ratio of public vs private, considering the public sector is around 18% of the workforce. From memory the high profile cases all retired first, which is the public sector equivalent of "the payoff" you mention.

What I'm saying is its hard to fire in general, but in the public sector they won't even pay people off to get rid of them. Add in the absence of redundancy and no one ever gets fired, in any shape or form, in the public sector. Apart from people caught thieving or fighting. Actually most fired civil servants are due to persistent non-attendance or lateness. The clock evidence is the employer's friend.

dxhound2005

ankles wrote: »

What I'm saying is its hard to fire in general, but in the public sector they won't even pay people off to get rid of them. Add in the absence of redundancy and no one ever gets fired, in any shape or form, in the public sector. Apart from people caught thieving or fighting. Actually most fired civil servants are due to persistent non-attendance or lateness. The clock evidence is the employer's friend.

You would make a good civil servant.

BBFAN

I think there are a lot of public sector workers on boards OP, so you're on a losing streak straight off but I agree with you completely.

I deal with public sector employees daily in my current position and they genuinely do not give 2 ****s about their job, it's all voicemails and emails. And btw their emails have no telephone number on them in case god forbid you might ring them.

I also have a friend who works in the public sector and insists that she has to take her sick leave days EVERY year.

It's turns my stomach.

mariaalice

The government HSE does not want to be sued if someone is going to be blamed thrown under the bus there has to be 100% proof that they and they alone were responsible.

Some of the people on the hospital procurement board will change and they will go to be directors of private sector companies, they came from private companies.

Snow Garden

I work in the public sector and accountability doesn't exist at any management level.
Performance reviews are a sham too. Everybody gets a good review or else you get the union chasing your manager around the place.

It can be demoralising at times but you get used to it.
And don't even attempt to suggest improvements or the union reps will be chasing you around the place because some career dosser feels threatened.

Giveaway

Need to just stop the project. Stop paying out to builders etc. Minisiter needs to state no new childrens' hospital and place the blame back on the ones riding the country for all its worth. And if they start playing the poor mouth be told publicly"tough, you killed the golden goose ". Then any future state tenders will not be subject to cost overruns

Edit-start firing the state emloyees who approved these costs, starting with Harris

Flyingsnowball

BBFAN wrote: »

I think there are a lot of public sector workers on boards OP, so you're on a losing streak straight off but I agree with you completely.

I deal with public sector employees daily in my current position and they genuinely do not give 2 ****s about their job, it's all voicemails and emails. And btw their emails have no telephone number on them in case god forbid you might ring them.

I also have a friend who works in the public sector and insists that she has to take her sick leave days EVERY year.

It's turns my stomach.

I know a few managers and entry level people in semi state companies very well and have done maintenance work for years in all sorts of public service offices it’s madness compared to what I know as normal.

If you look at pregnancies in some departments you will see that everyone goes sick a few months before then about half take a year or two off sick after the baby is born and then either quit or stroll back into the job. Hr actually recommends this to the staff, seriously.

Career breaks, I know a woman who was stealing from the shop in a hospital for 10 years every day a packet of biscuits.
She just arrived in to the shop and picked up a packet of biscuits and said “for the doctors” and walked out and nobody questioned it. After about ten years somebody asked why they gave a packet of biscuits for free to the doctors everyday and eventually it was figured out.

Nothing was done with this woman who spends her days picking fights with other women and has never been seen even turning her computer on.

I know a teachers boyfriend who told me they are planning a baby to be born to suit his wife’s entitlements to make sure she gets the most time off and doesn’t have to lose any holidays. Aparantly if you look at a teachers maternity leave statistics they all have babies at a certain time of year.

I’m not saying everybody is at it but something has to be done about it.

BBFAN

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I know a few managers and entry level people in semi state companies very well and have done maintenance work for years in all sorts of public service offices it’s madness compared to what I know as normal.

If you look at pregnancies in some departments you will see that everyone goes sick a few months before then about half take a year or two off sick after the baby is born and then either quit or stroll back into the job. Hr actually recommends this to the staff, seriously.

Career breaks, I know a woman who was stealing from the shop in a hospital for 10 years every day a packet of biscuits.
She just arrived in to the shop and picked up a packet of biscuits and said “for the doctors” and walked out and nobody questioned it. After about ten years somebody asked why they gave a packet of biscuits for free to the doctors everyday and eventually it was figured out.

Nothing was done with this woman who spends her days picking fights with other women and has never been seen even turning her computer on.

I know a teachers boyfriend who told me they are planning a baby to be born to suit his wife’s entitlements to make sure she gets the most time off and doesn’t have to lose any holidays. Aparantly if you look at a teachers maternity leave statistics they all have babies at a certain time of year.

I’m not saying everybody is at it but something has to be done about it.

Couldn't agree more, I know teachers who have at LEAST a year off when they have a child, if they arrange it well they can have two years.

fly_agaric

PhilOssophy wrote: »

But hearing Simon Harris say today that the PWC report into the childrens hospital should find nobody personally accountable for the failures on the project to date.

I think the general way things worked with the civil service was the minister(s) (i.e. the politicians at the top accountable to the people) were ultimately responsible for all the successes and failures in public + the administration stayed firmly in the background and said nothing whatsoever. It is hard to know how these things work when govt. increasingly creates various quangos / bodies like the HSE or boards or privatises things to deflect blame away - "that is a matter for the HSE" etc). Direct personal + public accountability for civil servants/public sector workers would be a big change.
I'm assuming from your post you want to have all the upper tier public sector people involved in this hauled over the coals in front of political system/general public to see exactly what they did wrong, and then sacked if found wanting.
I don't think you could expect civil servants/public sector "mandarins" to stay quiet in the background any more - they'd need to be free to comment in public and defend themselves while on the job.
That way of going about things would be a big change. I think it would be ultimately very toxic, with public witch-hunts, senior civil servants regularly leaking and briefing against politicians to get their retaliation in first when something is going wrong.
It would be highly entertaining and the media and the people who post on here would probably love to see them hung high, but it would be an absolute shítshow (and even worse than now IMO, if you can believe that) as regards trying to run the country.

edit: so while I'd agree about problems with a lack of accountability afterwards when things go badly wrong at the moment, how it would be changed needs thought.

PhilOssophy wrote: »

I have a friend who is a QS who said if they under-estimated something of the scale of the childrens hospital, they would be clearing their desk the minute the error was noticed. Why isn't this happening?

I appreciate mistakes happen. We all make them. But this isn't a simple error on a calculator. This is a reckless careless indifferent attitude to how tax payers money is spent. It is such a poor lack of oversight that surely at some point in this country somebody has to shout enough is enough.

I highly doubt there is expertise anywhere in the Irish public sector to independently cost the hospital. Therefore they depend on the tenders/whoever they have contracted to build it to cost the various aspects accurately.
I wonder should a bit of focus go on the contractors/builders and their estimates? They know this is an extremely high profile project.
They know it is decade late or something at this stage. They know just cancelling & not building it is not an option politically. It's a massive project requiring (I'm sure?) specialised expertise from a very busy construction sector. It's not like building a house where govt. can just get a new builder in easy if costs start to spiral out of control.
Being cynical now, there is sometimes an attitude in the private sector that bilking/hoodwinking the "eejits" and "dopes" in charge of the public sector for some project is being cute/clever at business. It's not real money anyway if the taxpayer pays for it all so why not "dig in" + feed at the trough.

Wheeliebin30

What was the idea of it been a job for life?

Seriously if you know you have a job for life unless you murder a coworker how can you be motivated going into work everyday???

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I know a few managers and entry level people in semi state companies very well and have done maintenance work for years in all sorts of public service offices it’s madness compared to what I know as normal.

If you look at pregnancies in some departments you will see that everyone goes sick a few months before then about half take a year or two off sick after the baby is born and then either quit or stroll back into the job. Hr actually recommends this to the staff, seriously.

Career breaks, I know a woman who was stealing from the shop in a hospital for 10 years every day a packet of biscuits.
She just arrived in to the shop and picked up a packet of biscuits and said “for the doctors” and walked out and nobody questioned it. After about ten years somebody asked why they gave a packet of biscuits for free to the doctors everyday and eventually it was figured out.

Nothing was done with this woman who spends her days picking fights with other women and has never been seen even turning her computer on.

I know a teachers boyfriend who told me they are planning a baby to be born to suit his wife’s entitlements to make sure she gets the most time off and doesn’t have to lose any holidays. Aparantly if you look at a teachers maternity leave statistics they all have babies at a certain time of year.

I’m not saying everybody is at it but something has to be done about it.

Very impressive knowledge about other peoples lives. You could have done something to stop the biscuit scandal instead of letting it go on for 10 years.

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Very impressive knowledge about other peoples lives. You could have done something to stop the biscuit scandal instead of letting it go on for 10 years.

I only heard about it when it was uncovered. She was eating them to herself.

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I only heard about it when it was uncovered. She was eating them to herself.

It sound like one of those urban legends to me.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pinched-cookies/

Ninthlife

Surely the private sector company who provided the costing should bear some responsibility.

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It sound like one of those urban legends to me.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/pinched-cookies/

? That has no similarities at all.

Pinch Flat

I think there’s a tradition of here of lack of accountability and taking responsibility in general life. The culture in the public service amplifies and accentuates this.

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

? That has no similarities at all.

Except that lots of people fall for tall stories, like the one you related.

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Except that lots of people fall for tall stories, like the one you related.

I’d love somebody from that hospital to know of this story and confirm it. Even the fact you are so staunch in denying it happened for no other reason than I said a public service employee did it is a bit mad.
If I said it was a private sector employee would you care?

dxhound2005

Flyingsnowball wrote: »

I’d love somebody from that hospital to know of this story and confirm it. Even the fact you are so staunch in denying it happened for no other reason than I said a public service employee did it is a bit mad.
If I said it was a private sector employee would you care?

You come across as a credulous sort who would believe any old nonsense.

BBFAN

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You come across as a credulous sort who would believe any old nonsense.

Are you a public servant by any chance?

Flyingsnowball

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You come across as a credulous sort who would believe any old nonsense.

Yeah man thanks for the feedback. You seem like you want to get into a cover up type fight or something. I’m going to watch split. Watched unbreakable last night. Seen them before but the wife never did so going to watch them before I get to see part 3.

blackcard

So a greedy immoral private sector company is screwing the taxpayer for hundreds of millions. They are going to be investigated by another greedy dodgy company who have done shocking work as auditors. You have loads of private sector consultants supposed to be managing this project. No one from these companies is going to be held accountable.

I know someone in the private sector who steals from his employer.
Am I doing this right?

Flyingsnowball

Who is the fella in charge of awarding contracts. Why does he pay twice the price for most things from nappies to buildings than a private company or shopper would pay?

Why can I head to tesco and get a packet of pampers for way less than the hospital goes and buys them in bulk.

That’s where the smoking gun has been waiting for years

Franz Von Peppercorn

Edward M wrote: »

This children's hospital thing is FGs Bertie Bowl.
Of course they're responsible, how could you not see prices increasing so dramatically without doing detailed research in to it before now.
The brainwashed always accept excuses as it's not as bad as you think or some such.
This is bound to affect other services, and the already hard pressed health services.
And they're refusing to give anything to the nurses, they don't matter, just the big shiny FG children's hospital, a lasting monument that they can put on their posters for generations.

Yeh, that’s just a political rant. You’d probably be defending other political parties were they in power. The problem there is the project managers in the public service.

Franz Von Peppercorn

blackcard wrote: »

So a greedy immoral private sector company is screwing the taxpayer for hundreds of millions. They are going to be investigated by another greedy dodgy company who have done shocking work as auditors. You have loads of private sector consultants supposed to be managing this project. No one from these companies is going to be held accountable.

They might be corrupt too but it’s taxpayer money the public sector is spending.

I know someone in the private sector who steals from his employer.
Am I doing this right?

Not unless you are paying him.