Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Alun

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's dependant on residency, so if she has residency after a no-deal brexit, she should be ok. It's the winter sojourners that would mainly have a problem. Also, interestingly, Irish citizens resident in the UK will also not be eligible.

Yes, anybody who is permanently resident in an EU country can apply for an EHIC card from that country for use when travelling. They don't have to be a citizen of an EU country themselves. I'm a UK citizen, but can still avail of an EHIC card from Ireland, even after Brexit.

ThePanjandrum

Akrasia wrote: »

They could also withdraw article 50 and call the whole thing off

Yeah, we take inspiration from the way you voted against the Lisbon Treaty then crumbled when the EU applied a little pressure. It was a great example to us of standing up for what you believe.

4068ac1elhodqr

The UK have started rolling out full-page, full-colour, early-right press ads (not cheap).

The ads themselves offer zero information, but have a weblink (not QR coded), to a website that also offers very little information.
Well unless you like clickty click, on linkity links, and random pdf/report downloads.
https://www.gov.uk/euexit

listermint

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Yeah, we take inspiration from the way you voted against the Lisbon Treaty then crumbled when the EU applied a little pressure. It was a great example to us of standing up for what you believe.

Nice disingenuous post there


At least bother sticking to the facts. You might get some respect

ThePanjandrum

CelticRambler wrote: »

This, and the Fly-BMI situation (unable to sign contracts because their trading partners don't have confidence in the future arrangements for British-registered airlines), demonstrate the futility of the Brexiteers' insistence that the EU will continue negotiating up to, and cave at, the last minute. There is no more last minute; this is the new No-Deal Brexit reality.

They were owned by the same company as Loganair. Loganair makes a profit, FlyBMI makes a loss. FlyBMI goes into administration and Loganair takes over some of its routes to EU counties.

Obviously, this was caused by Brexit.

Water John

There seems to be two points where HOC may challenge TM. the first is the next round in about a week, groundhog day it seems with May again saying trust her. Parliament may feel they have given her enough and not let it drift further esp No Deal option.
The second is the 25/26th March. /that's where the Kyle/Wilson Option comes in. Seems McDonnell and Starmer will push for full Lb support at that point. Allied to them will be enough Tories incl some Ministers.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/16/huge-march-last-week-before-brexit

FrancieBrady

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Yeah, we take inspiration from the way you voted against the Lisbon Treaty then crumbled when the EU applied a little pressure. It was a great example to us of standing up for what you believe.

The sensible inspiration there would be of the second referendum variey.
It is quite clear that nobody knows what the consensus view is in the UK, if we did we might get some responsible and decisive leadership.

Imreoir2

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Yeah, we take inspiration from the way you voted against the Lisbon Treaty then crumbled when the EU applied a little pressure. It was a great example to us of standing up for what you believe.

We crumbled did we? I was not aware that we were under some obligation to hold out against the EU. What is it that we supposidly believed in at the time that we somehow failed to stand up for? Perhaps you could substantiate your claims, what pressure was applied by the EU?

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the Irish government was in favour of the Lisbon Treaty in the first place and when the first referendum was defeated, they compiled a set of concerns that were seen as having contributed to the defeat, issues such as neutrality, corporation tax and continuing to have a comissioner. Our government was of the opinion that should those specific concerns be addressed, then there was a good chance that the referendum could be carried a second time round. Those concerns where duely addressed by the EU and as it turns out the government was correct in their assessment.

Seemingly instead of having a specific set of concerns satisified, we crumbeled and failed to stand up for our beliefs, whatever they were supposed to be.

Water John

Imreoir the worries of the Irish people were quantified and presented, whilst also managing expectation. The Job of good Government.

BobbyBobberson

Can anyone recommend any decent pro Brexit commentators? I follow Roland Smith and Oliver Norgrave who seem pretty grounded. Any others?

ancapailldorcha

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Yeah, we take inspiration from the way you voted against the Lisbon Treaty then crumbled when the EU applied a little pressure. It was a great example to us of standing up for what you believe.

Banned for trolling. No more smart alec quips please.

Spanish Eyes

Alun wrote: »

Yes, anybody who is permanently resident in an EU country can apply for an EHIC card from that country for use when travelling. They don't have to be a citizen of an EU country themselves. I'm a UK citizen, but can still avail of an EHIC card from Ireland, even after Brexit.

That's good. EU helps again. But surely that is only for emergency assistance.

What do you think of a Hard Brexit, just wondered. Good to hear the views of those outside the UK who enjoy all the benefits of the EU anyway with residency. Thanks.

sKeith

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Yeah, we take inspiration from the way you voted against the Lisbon Treaty then crumbled when the EU applied a little pressure. It was a great example to us of standing up for what you believe.

In referenda, if you are unsure, alway vote the status quo, until you are convinced. The change can always be asked for again.


UK voters voted to change, not keep status quo in a dubiously run referendum, and the day after had a huge amount of google searches for 'what is the EU'


Thats hardly voting the status quo until you understand.


Thats why the illegality of the referendum is so important, but weird that the uk law makers are very lax on pressing charges, so far.



If Irish are not informed correctly before a referendum, they know the safe choice is no, and if its important, the goverment needs to up their game on explaining the reason why we should accept these changes and reassure our doubts, then whan they are more informed they may accept the changes again if its needed.


I don't know how many times we were asked about abortion, but it was many, and not until very recently were enough voters for it. Before it was accepted, voting no was keeping the status quo.

An Ciarraioch

Any time you're ready, Chuka:

http://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1097232859914555393

nc6000

Enzokk wrote:

I know this has been contradicted in the Guardian, but if this is the plan it is frightening. The only things I would find more concerning is if Gove became PM instead of Johnson. Gove has been on the record stating they should just accept the deal and break it at a later date.

Brexit is just never going to end, is it?

Irish Praetorian

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Any time you're ready, Chuka:

http://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1097232859914555393

Why is it young Brexiteers are always such pretty men?

BobbyBobberson

Well I hope he does walk as I am off work tomorrow and enjoy Twitter on a big political day. Having said that we have heard Chuka has being going to go for a long time.

SNIP.

fash

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Three of the major ones

1. It ends uncertainty

Only when there is a backstop.

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

[*]It enables the UK to look after its own external trade relations

According to US senators, only with a backstop.

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

*]It provides a basis on which the EU and UK can build an arm's length FTA

only when there is a backstop.

prawnsambo

nc6000 wrote: »

Brexit is just never going to end, is it?

It was only ever going to end if they withdrew their A50 notification. All other options leave it front and centre for at least a decade.

The whole 'agree now and back out later' schtick has been doing the rounds for a while. It's about as realistic as a unicorn farting rainbows. Such a demonstration of UK duplicity would have them whistling for a trade deal with anyone other than the truly desperate.

A Dub in Glasgo

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Yeah, we take inspiration from the way you voted against the Lisbon Treaty then crumbled when the EU applied a little pressure. It was a great example to us of standing up for what you believe.

It has been demonstrated that the Brexit referendum was full of lies and the winning side broke the law and had no plan for implementation whatsoever. Fancy resetting the clock in those circumstance eh?

RobMc59

Tony Blair pulled some pretty lowdown stunts but he's got it right here..
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1088552/brexit-news-tony-blair-second-referendum-munich-theresa-may-withdrawal-agreement

Water John

Sophie Ridge went to the country to see how manufacturing might fare after Brexit. Amazingly she ended up in JCB. Mustn't have been able to find another one in the UK in favour of Brexit.

LeinsterDub

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Any time you're ready, Chuka:

http://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1097232859914555393

This just stinks of the people's front of Judea or is it the Judean people's front. Rome is burning and these people have decided to pick up a fiddle.

VinLieger

LeinsterDub wrote: »

This just stinks of the people's front of Judea or is it the Judean people's front. Rome is burning and these people have decided to pick up a fiddle.

Its what both corbyn and may are deathly afraid of though, moreso than even a bed brexit. The primary concern of each has been plainly shown to be party unity to avoid a split and nothing more.

10000maniacs

Water John wrote: »

Sophie Ridge went to the country to see how manufacturing might fare after Brexit. Amazingly she ended up in JCB. Mustn't have been able to find another one in the UK in favour of Brexit.

Every few days Channel 4 have a Brexiteer company owner or farmer on the 7:00 news, usually over 60 and saying everything will fall into place with a few minor tweaks. Not many sheep farmers from Wales though.

54and56

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Yeah, we take inspiration from the way you voted against the Lisbon Treaty then crumbled when the EU applied a little pressure. It was a great example to us of standing up for what you believe.

What a load of revisionist tosh!! It suits your narrative to spew this sort of rubbish.

The facts (which don't seem to have any impact on your views) are that the Irish electorate rejected the Lisbon treaty due to concerns over military neutrality, sovereignty on tax and the ability to legislate on social issues including abortion.

Post the referendum defeat the EU agreed to provide Ireland with "necessary legal guarantees" addressing these concerns which if you break with tradition and spend some time [URL="file:///C:/Users/johnm/Downloads/IIEA-2009-Lisbon-The-Irish-Guarantees-Explained.pdf"]researching the facts[/URL] you will find addressed the concerns of the Irish electorate thus enabling them to ratify the treaty in a 2nd referendum.

TLDR:

• Ireland rejected the Lisbon treaty citing concerns over military neutrality, sovereignty on tax etc.
  
• The EU listened and agreed legal guarantees which addressed Ireland's concerns.
  
• Ireland subsequently approved the Lisbon treaty by a majority of 2:1.

This is how mature democracies work.

You should try it.

Peregrinus

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

. . . This is how mature democracies work.

You should try it.

You don't get it, Jean. Brexit Britain is a condom democracy - strictly single single use only. For Brexiters, the whole point of having a referendum is to put a question conclusively beyond democratic review or accountability.

ambro25

Peregrinus wrote: »

You don't get it, Jean. Brexit Britain is a condom democracy - strictly single single use only. For Brexiters, the whole point of having a referendum is to put a question conclusively beyond democratic review or accountability.

Brexit Britain is that rarest of democratic models: a representative parliamentary system which has reached, then exceeded, its sell-by-date.

Much, not to say all, of the Brexit fiasco is ultimately attributable to the FPTP electoral mechanism. Even the UK's bipartisanism of old. The party infighting that has been raging on both sides of the House, for which Brexit is a revealer doubling as an amplifier, is solely guided by survival of this model.

"Condom democracy". Liked that very much, genuine thank you for the chuckles.

Seth Brundle

"There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside" - David Davis...

https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1097418786079236096


Meanwhile, a Scottish based shellfish supplier is wondering if theyll be in business in six weeks...

https://twitter.com/jim45cotland/status/1097413697369198597

Enzokk

The DCMS Committee has released their report on "fake news", focusing on Facebook. The findings against Facebook is interesting but not Brexit related, however they also looked at some of the aspects regarding the referendum and what happened then. We knew some of the aspects already with their interim report where they asked the NCA to investigate Banks and Wigmore.

It makes for interesting reading, some of the interesting parts I found was that AIQ had a project called "Client-S8-Action” (Save the 8th). The EU referendum parts start on page 43 of the report.

Disinformation and 'fake news'

This is an interesting paragraph, page 52.

AIQ had the capability to use the data scraped by Dr. Kogan. We know that they did this during the US elections in 2014. Dr Kogan’s data also included UK citizens’ data and the question arises whether this was used during the EU referendum. We know from Facebook that data matching Dr Kogan’s was found in the data used by AIQ’s leave campaign audience files. Facebook believe that this is a coincidence, or, in the words of Mike Schroepfer, CTO of Facebook, an “effectively random chance”.203 It is not known whether the Kogan data was destroyed by AIQ.