Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Hurrache

Havockk wrote: »

Yes, Thatcher promised them access to the EU.

I see you're cross posting after just blaming the mess the UK is in on Thatcher in the other thread. Bizarre that you're not even being humorous.

murphaph

I assume May also lied to them much more recently.

Havockk

lawred2 wrote: »

ah jaysus those weren't lies at the time now to be fair...

I thought there were specific promises made by the UK during the EU/JPN free trade negotiations..

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not sure how you can call that a lie. Thatcher is dead and EU membership was alive and kicking on the day she died. Far be it for me to interpret another poster's words, but I suspect that the lie they're referreing to is a lot more recent than Maggie Thatcher's peremiership.

That's just semantics to be fair. The upshot is that EU access looks to be stopping. The Japanese take that kind of thing seriously.

embraer170

So the Honda developments apparently have absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Hard to know what to say when you get to this level of dishonesty. I can buy the story that this is mainly driven by wider changes in the car industry, but when you have a company spokesperson saying Brexit has nothing to do with it... hmmm.

lawred2

embraer170 wrote: »

So the Honda developments apparently have absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Hard to know what to say when you get to this level of dishonesty. I can buy the story that this is mainly driven by wider changes in the car industry, but when you have a company spokesperson saying Brexit has nothing to do with it... hmmm.

A Honda company spokesperson?

Hurrache

So protectionism kicking in, although the main result of this seems to be just increasing the price of foodstuffs for people in the UK, unless they somehow manage to produce everything they need in the UK already.
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1097819350759817216

prawnsambo

Havockk wrote: »

That's just semantics to be fair. The upshot is that EU access looks to be stopping. The Japanese take that kind of thing seriously.

Semantics? You're somehow blaming Thatcher for brexit and accusing others of semantics? There is no way that the Japanese would be quoting Thatcher as evidence of lies. In relation to a trade negotiation that didn't start until the year she died and twenty-three years after she left office as PM. It would be bizarre if they did. As you say, they take things seriously, and that premise is laughable.

Havockk

prawnsambo wrote: »

Semantics? You're somehow blaming Thatcher for brexit and accusing others of semantics? There is no way that the Japanese would be quoting Thatcher as evidence of lies. In relation to a trade negotiation that didn't start until the year she died and twenty-three years after she left office as PM. It would be bizarre if they did. As you say, they take things seriously, and that premise is laughable.

No I'm saying I recognise that Thatchers promise was not a personal one. She was saying that the UK is a safe place to do business and a safe route to the EU market.

Rory28

Havockk wrote: »

No I'm saying I recognise that Thatchers promise was not a personal one. She was saying that the UK is a safe place to do business and a safe route to the EU market.

It was in her day. The lie must be something more recent.

lawred2

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

I was referring to reassurances and promises made to automakers after Brexit vote vote that they wont lose access to single market and that there will be state aid for them

https://www.ft.com/content/fe6e3660-0a68-11e7-ac5a-903b21361b43
and
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/04/government-letter-to-nissan-reveals-brexit-promise-to-carmarkers

Japan were stringing trade negotiations with EU for years, and then overnight boom there is an agreement and auto tariffs are no longer an issue for them. At some stage it must have dawned on Japanese what Brexit means for their investments and they acted swiftly.

That's what I would have expected. HMG being duplicitous. That's new.

road_high

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Japanese culture is very polite, also these plants are not closing overnight but being run down over next 2-3 years, they still need people to work there and do their jobs.

What is said in public and what is said in private to May and co would be quite different. At the end of the day they were lied to and dishonoured, and honour is something important to their culture
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/18/japan-almost-cancelled-brexit-talks-high-handed-letter-liam-fox-jeremy-hunt

Nothing to be gained for Honda by directily blaming Brexit. Bottom line for them is they’ve cut their losses and are out of there

Havockk

Rory28 wrote: »

It was in her day. The lie must be something more recent.

Either way, it looks like the UK is breaking their part of the bargain. Just so I'm clear here... we are all on the same page that this is the fault of brexit right?

seamus

embraer170 wrote: »

So the Honda developments apparently have absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Hard to know what to say when you get to this level of dishonesty. I can buy the story that this is mainly driven by wider changes in the car industry, but when you have a company spokesperson saying Brexit has nothing to do with it... hmmm.

lawred2 wrote: »

A Honda company spokesperson?

Yeah;

"This is not a Brexit-related issue for us. This decision has been made on the basis of global changes," Honda's senior vice president for Europe Ian Howells told BBC Radio.

I guess from Honda's point of view there is nothing to be gained for them in taking a political stance on this.

They are not a British company. They have no need for, or sense of, patriotism in their affairs. There is no general obligation for honesty in their business decisions.

From their point of view, they still have a consumer market in the UK to protect. And while there may be some civic value in blaming Brexit, there is no monetary value in it. All it would do is potentially alienating some consumers.

I found a rather prescient article about this, which belies Honda's claim that it's not about Brexit:
https://www.ft.com/content/8f46b0d4-77b6-11e8-8e67-1e1a0846c475

A no-deal scenario will create an estimated 60,000 pieces of paperwork per year for Honda's Swindon plant.
They've clearly brought this right down to the wire and decided that one way or another this disruption to their manufacturing can't be tolerated.

Call me Al

Hurrache wrote: »

So protectionism kicking in, although the main result of this seems to be just increasing the price of foodstuffs for people in the UK, unless they somehow manage to produce everything they need in the UK already.
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1097819350759817216

How on earth does he propose to monitor all foodstuffs at the NI border.
Or does that border not matter..

RobMc59

Hurrache wrote: »

So protectionism kicking in, although the main result of this seems to be just increasing the price of foodstuffs for people in the UK, unless they somehow manage to produce everything they need in the UK already.
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1097819350759817216

As previously mentioned,taking milk as an example-people were laughing at the UK for saying they wouldn't apply tariffs on imported milk but would have to pay an import tariff-so there's nothing wrong with making it "a level playing field".

Hurrache

Call me Al wrote: »

How on earth does he propose to monitor all foodstuffs at the NI border.
Or does that border not matter..

Sensors and Wifi, or something.

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

As previously mentioned,taking milk as an example-people were laughing at the UK for saying they wouldn't apply tariffs on imported milk but would have to pay an import tariff-so there's nothing wrong with making it "a level playing field".

It would be a level playing field if the UK produced all it's food requirements, but it doesn't, and therefore it's UK citizens that will be paying, not the producers exporting into the UK.

Based on the farm-gate value of unprocessed food in 2017, the UK supplied just under half (50%) of the food consumed in the UK. The leading foreign supplier of food consumed in the UK were countries from the EU (30%). Africa, Asia, North and South America esch provided a 4% share of the food consumed in the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/food-statistics-pocketbook-2017/food-statistics-in-your-pocket-2017-global-and-uk-supply

embraer170

road_high wrote: »

Nothing to be gained for Honda by directily blaming Brexit. Bottom line for them is they’ve cut their losses and are out of there

Absolutely true, but the end result if you have a country aiming straight into a brick wall with most of the population in total denial.

prawnsambo

Havockk wrote: »

No I'm saying I recognise that Thatchers promise was not a personal one. She was saying that the UK is a safe place to do business and a safe route to the EU market.

And no sane person would hark back 40 years to promises made by a dead prime minister as proof of anything. The first rule of British (or any) parliamentary democracy is that no government can bind a future government. It's bizarre to suggest that the Japanese would in any way be quoting Thatcher in this case.

EKRIUQ

I find this amazing, 3,500 people lose their jobs and it barely makes the front pages of the daily news papers in the UK

Mentioned on some but the large papers don't have it on the front.

https://imgur.com/a/DpanbKe#s56NATn

10000maniacs

This is quite typical of some of the interviews in Swindon yesterday.
"We all knew someone who worked at Honda. Getting in there was like winning the pools for non-academic lads in the 90s."
What way did you vote in the referendum? No Comment.

Havockk

prawnsambo wrote: »

And no sane person would hark back 40 years to promises made by a dead prime minister as proof of anything. The first rule of British (or any) parliamentary democracy is that no government can bind a future government. It's bizarre to suggest that the Japanese would in any way be quoting Thatcher in this case.

Well I wasn't the poster who made that assessment. What I am stating, is the fact, that Thatcher made that commitment to Japan on behalf of the UK.

And I absolutely agree that brexit is now the reason that Honda is closing. Is this what you are objecting to?

road_high

embraer170 wrote: »

Absolutely true, but the end result if you have a country aiming straight into a brick wall with most of the population in total denial.

Yep. Thousands more (very good) jobs gone and so many of the comments on social media are its nothing to do with Brexit, no one buys Hondas etc
Outside of Europe Honda being one of the pre eminent car manufacturers- so much for "Global" Britain :rolleyes:

prawnsambo

RobMc59 wrote: »

As previously mentioned,taking milk as an example-people were laughing at the UK for saying they wouldn't apply tariffs on imported milk but would have to pay an import tariff-so there's nothing wrong with making it "a level playing field".

I think you're saying the same thing twice here.

Tariffs are always applied by the importing country. Their purpose is to protect indigenous industry from cheap imports. So the only people you're hurting by not applying them are your own.

gmisk

I watched the John Oliver programme on brexit.
Even the Americans seem bemused with the absolute disaster coming over the hill.
But hey blitz spirit stiff upper lip and all that guff!

RobMc59

Hurrache wrote: »

It would be a level playing field if the UK produced all it's food requirements, but it doesn't, and therefore it's UK citizens that will be paying, not the producers exporting into the UK.



https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/food-statistics-pocketbook-2017/food-statistics-in-your-pocket-2017-global-and-uk-supply

I imagine as with Irish producers,the British farmers will increase production as required-if Britain has to become more self sufficient it will,just as Ireland will as we are constantly being told on this forum.

54and56

Hurrache wrote: »

So protectionism kicking in, although the main result of this seems to be just increasing the price of foodstuffs for people in the UK, unless they somehow manage to produce everything they need in the UK already.
https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/1097819350759817216

I'm personally glad to see Gove finally accept that the idea of no tariffs on imports would be a disaster for the UK long term.

Brexiteers who say they won't place any tariffs on inbound goods as a means for ensuring costs don't increase post Brexit and thereby justifying a ND/WTO Brexit are a perfect example of how such idealism doesn't stand up to reality and reality is approaching very fast.

If the UK imposes zero tariffs on inbound goods why would any country waste their time negotiating a FTA with the UK as they'd already have tariff free access to the UK market?

With supply chain disruption, increased cost of living, recession and significant job losses looming will the pragmatists in both govt and opposition in the HoC actually come together to stop the madness or will pride, ego and party loyalty result in lemming like behaviour with everyone jumping off the cliff?

Given those MP's who would be brave enough to actually save their country would actually be labelled as traitors for the rest of their lives by those MP's hell bent on securing Brexit regardless of the impact on (generally less well off) peoples lives I don't hold out too much hope.

Imreoir2

Havockk wrote: »

Yes, Thatcher promised them access to the EU.

I'm fairly sure May herself made promisses to Nissan regarding access and state support to compensate for any dificulties.

Hurrache

This UNESCO report makes for grim reading, but hopefully should halt those rushing for a border poll.

There will be a return to violence in Northern Ireland if there is any infrastructure installed on the border, an in-depth report on youth and peace in the region has concluded.

“The only issue is the scale of the violence,” says the research conducted by two Unesco chairmen.

The 377-page report notes that youth in Northern Ireland have not had to endure the violence of previous generations but they still live in a “post-conflict environment with residual issues such as levels of deprivation, covert ongoing paramilitary activity, and sporadic violence”.

“In as little as six weeks it is possible that a hard border could materialise due to a no-deal Brexit, triggering a return to violence in Northern Ireland.

“All indications are that without direct efforts to engage youth and citizens of all backgrounds, there will also be a return to violence in the event of rushed border poll on the island of Ireland,” says the report

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/feb/18/hard-border-in-ireland-would-trigger-return-to-violence-says-report

Imreoir2

Hurrache wrote: »

Sensors and Wifi, or something.

No no no, its moblie phones and GPS, obviously.