Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Leroy42

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Meanwhile, the Malthouse Compromise is dead:

http://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1097879243948810241

I doubt very much that it wil be dead, that would amount to TM actually making a decision.

More likely they will come out with some guff about narrowing the options, clarifying the potential paths. TM will urge them to come together and come to a workable solution that she can bring to the EU.

I would be very surprised if TM actually told the ERG that Malthouse was a non runner. What other option has she to play for time?

Podge_irl

Folkstonian wrote: »

High end Irish produce is no better than high end British produce. I’ve lived in both countries, bought from high end supermarkets and independent businesses in both. There’s no substantial difference.

The relevance of this judgement on Irish v British agricultural products being what exactly? FTAs that allow us to export more agriproducts is a good thing. Not having competition from British products now is even better really.

murphaph

Folkstonian wrote: »

High end Irish produce is no better than high end British produce. I’ve lived in both countries, bought from high end supermarkets and independent businesses in both. There’s no substantial difference.

This is true, but Ireland's reputation for clean food is much better than the UK's and that reputation is worth protecting.

RobMc59

murphaph wrote: »

This is true, but Ireland's reputation for clean food is much better than the UK's and that reputation is worth protecting.

How do you work that out if they're both subject to the same quality control guidelines?

Folkstonian

Podge_irl wrote: »

The relevance of this judgement on Irish v British agricultural products being what exactly? FTAs that allow us to export more agriproducts is a good thing. Not having competition from British products now is even better really.

That’s definitely a good thing, markets like japan will prove valuable to the agricultural sector here as the British consumers turn away from more expensive Irish products in favour of options from further afield if Brexit does go ahead.

Hurrache

Leroy42 wrote: »

I doubt very much that it wil be dead, that would amount to TM actually making a decision.

Well there have been discussions with the EU, e.g. with the attorney general, and she has a meeting herself tomorrow. So maybe something has come out of those meetings and she's grown a pair?

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

How do you work that out if they're both subject to the same quality control guidelines?

We embrace them, the UK sees them as an inconvenience. I know this personally.

Blowfish

Folkstonian wrote: »

High end Irish produce is no better than high end British produce. I’ve lived in both countries, bought from high end supermarkets and independent businesses in both. There’s no substantial difference.

There is a difference in reach though, for example, Kerrygold has the second highest butter sales in the US.

volchitsa

RobMc59 wrote: »

How do you work that out if they're both subject to the same quality control guidelines?

Presumably high end produce is way above the minimum standards anyway, and that's why there can be a difference perceived at the top of the range for food produced in the two countries?

It may not even be quantifiable, but customer perceptions are all, at that level.

VinLieger

RobMc59 wrote: »

How do you work that out if they're both subject to the same quality control guidelines?

Because some Irish producers pride themselves on exceeding the guidelines instead of just aiming for the bare minimum.

lawred2

RobMc59 wrote: »

How do you work that out if they're both subject to the same quality control guidelines?

that may not be for long - taking back control right?

Franz Von Peppercorn

Folkstonian wrote: »

That’s definitely a good thing, markets like japan will prove valuable to the agricultural sector here as the British consumers turn away from more expensive Irish products in favour of options from further afield if Brexit does go ahead.

As a poor country you might have no option but cheap grub. Don’t lose the taste for offal.

kunst nugget

VinLieger wrote: »

Because some Irish producers pride themselves on exceeding the guidelines instead of just aiming for the bare minimum.

And some British producers would pride themselves on the same thing while some Irish producers will just aim for the bare minimum. It's hardly a black and white thing when it comes to food production between the two islands.

VinLieger

kunst nugget wrote: »

And some British producers would pride themselves on the same thing while some Irish producers will just aim for the bare minimum. It's hardly a black and white thing when it comes to food production between the two islands.

Indeed but it was a stupid answer to a stupid question

Leroy42

Hurrache wrote: »

Well there have been discussions with the EU, e.g. with the attorney general, and she has a meeting herself tomorrow. So maybe something has come out of those meetings and she's grown a pair?

Of course that could be true, but would be a total change in approach and I cannot see any advantage to TM doing that now.

Bit cynical

VinLieger wrote: »

Theres no details yet as they need to keep the pressure on the UK but id guess since its going to be an EU border we will get assistance with it

I would have thought that the way to maximise pressure on the UK is to be able to show them that we are fully prepared for no deal in all its aspects. For example, in the area of trade, the EU is keen to show that it has plans in place in the event of a no deal and that it is fully prepared.

The lack of details is more about putting pressure on the EU. Ireland is keen that a deal is made and this involves putting pressure on both sides.

An Ciarraioch

Interesting development re MEPs - the last elected in both Dublin and South wouldn't be allowed take their seats if UK hasn't left by July:

http://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1097901846440624128

Imreoir2

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Interesting development re MEPs - the last elected in both Dublin and South wouldn't be allowed take their seats if UK hasn't left by July:

http://twitter.com/oconnellhugh/status/1097901846440624128

That is interesting, does the law allow for that or will it have to be changed? I suppose the voting system does allow for there to be a least supported candidate who can lose their seat. Thank god we don't have FPTP single seat constituencies.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Here`s an example which I find hard to understand from such a global,light years ahead food producer.
Gallagher`s sliced loaf(made in Donegal)-1.50 euro in Letterkenny,the same loaf 89p in the UK.
Tayto 12 pack of crisps-4 euros+ in Ireland but £2 in Derry and £1.75 in Britain(when you can find them admittedly!) so how is that light years ahead?

RobMc59 wrote: »

And things produced in Ireland and indeed,even in the same County should`nt cost more than they do in the UK!

I'll see your 4-pack of Tayto and raise you a box of Weetabix! Why is made-in-England Weetabix cheaper in my local (French) supermarket than it is in any English supermarket?

It has more to do with VAT and local pricing rules (sugar tax, fat tax, middle-man tax, business rates, etc, etc, etc) than anything else. Last autumn, I spent a little over a month on a fact-finding (ish) trip to the US, and couldn't quite understand how Irish butter was (a) on sale in every supermarket that I visted; and (b) cheaper than all the brands of American butter on sale in the same fridge.

VinLieger

Bit cynical wrote: »

I would have thought that the way to maximise pressure on the UK is to be able to show them that we are fully prepared for no deal in all its aspects. For example, in the area of trade, the EU is keen to show that it has plans in place in the event of a no deal and that it is fully prepared.

The lack of details is more about putting pressure on the EU. Ireland is keen that a deal is made and this involves putting pressure on both sides.

The second info on no deal border prep becomes public the brexiteers will try to use it to say the EU and Ireland are pushing the UK into no deal and a hard border

Sam Russell

Folkstonian wrote: »

High end Irish produce is no better than high end British produce. I’ve lived in both countries, bought from high end supermarkets and independent businesses in both. There’s no substantial difference.

Well, differences depend on what your standards are. BSE was a British invention caused by feeding animal protein to herbivores. Foot and mouth was caused by feeding unpasteurised scrap food to farm animals. Both occurred because of British animal hygiene standards - but did not occur in Ireland due to our animal hygiene standards.

I'm sure the produce tasted the same when sampled by the customer- but not under laboratory test.

We are heading for fully traceable products, and salmonella free chicken.

First Up

Folkstonian wrote:

That’s definitely a good thing, markets like japan will prove valuable to the agricultural sector here as the British consumers turn away from more expensive Irish products in favour of options from further afield if Brexit does go ahead.

Will the options from further afield be cheaper because they are of inferior quality?

CelticRambler

lawred2 wrote: »

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/eu-japan-economic-partnership-agreement/eu-japan-in-your-town/

cool little facility that shows companies in the EU exporting to Japan.

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Funny how actual facts provide clarity but only to those prepared to accept them.

Indeed. From the link above, I see that Ireland has a trading surplus with Japan that's more than twice that of France; and Britain has a deficit. Earlier, I was looking at Ireland and the UK's trade with China. Again, Ireland has a surplus, Britain has a (huge) deficit.

Brexiteers tell us that Britain is a great trading nation, but is that another fond memory of the past? Yet again I'm left wondering what golden egg a post-Brexit Britain is going to offer the outside world, that can't be provided by some other country ...

kunst nugget

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, differences depend on what your standards are. BSE was a British invention caused by feeding animal protein to herbivores. Foot and mouth was caused by feeding unpasteurised scrap food to farm animals. Both occurred because of British animal hygiene standards - but did not occur in Ireland due to our animal hygiene standards.

I'm sure the produce tasted the same when sampled by the customer- but not under laboratory test.

We are heading for fully traceable products, and salmonella free chicken.

Not to be pedantic but we've had cases of BSE in this country and an outbreak of foot and mouth in 2001 so they did both occur here. We obviously were more stringent about how we dealt with these issues so had much more successful outcomes.

Bit cynical

VinLieger wrote: »

The second info on no deal border prep becomes public the brexiteers will try to use it to say the EU and Ireland are pushing the UK into no deal and a hard border

However in the event of no deal, a border of some sort is inevitable just like trade disruption is inevitable, both of which we are keen to avoid. Yet to put pressure on the UK, the normal approach would be to at least give the public impression that we are reasonably prepared for both these outcomes.

Giving the impression that we can't handle or are not prepared for a no deal scenario eases pressure on the UK. Those in the UK can say, "look at the EU they will not be able to handle a no deal as they have not been able to prepare for the trade or border implications. Therefore we should hold out for a deal more favourable to ourselves."

That is why I think our lack of published border plans is not part of a tactic of putting pressure on the UK.

prawnsambo

CelticRambler wrote: »

Indeed. From the link above, I see that Ireland has a trading surplus with Japan that's more than twice that of France; and Britain has a deficit. Earlier, I was looking at Ireland and the UK's trade with China. Again, Ireland has a surplus, Britain has a (huge) deficit.

Brexiteers tell us that Britain is a great trading nation, but is that another fond memory of the past? Yet again I'm left wondering what golden egg a post-Brexit Britain is going to offer the outside world, that can't be provided by some other country ...

It's something I became aware of at a young age. The myth that the British were a great trading nation (and that the Germans were efficient ). I lost count of the times I had to cajole and persuade British producers that it was actually easy to send stuff here. And even then, I had to baby-step them through the paperwork and arrange the shipping myself. And woe betide the day something went wrong. Because they went to ground faster than a fox with a hunt on its tail. And stayed there until they could reasonably expect the problem to have been sorted by me or the shipping company. There were of course others that weren't like that and had a more outward looking perspective, but they were in the minority. The best were the guys of Indian or Pakistani origin. Nothing was a problem and all done efficiently and properly.

Maybe it's the fact that they had a big market on their doorstep and didn't need to look outwards, but I often wonder was this part of the decline in British engineering, which just died a slow death as the EU opened up and they didn't take advantage of the opportunities it provided and weren't prepared to up their game to compete with the rest of Europe.

prawnsambo

kunst nugget wrote: »

Not to be pedantic but we've had cases of BSE in this country and an outbreak of foot and mouth in 2001 so they did both occur here. We obviously were more stringent about how we dealt with these issues so had much more successful outcomes.

Both of which iirc, came as a direct result of importing cattle from NI.

CelticRambler

Sam Russell wrote: »

BSE was a British invention caused by feeding animal protein to herbivores.

In the interests of accuracy: not quite! The Irish (and the French, Germans, Spaniards, Americans - especially th'Americans) were doing exactly the same. It just happened that the British changed to a "more efficient" rendering process in the 80s that allowed the BSE prion into the final meat-and-bonemeal product, possibly at just the wrong time when there was a rise in the incidence of the related disease, scrapie, in sheep.

Once the problem was recognised and the (likely) source identified, the British were very quick to impose controls - two years before the French and several years before the EU as a whole. Whatever other criticisms we might have of the UK, they have always been at the forefront of sensible animal welfare regulations.

kunst nugget

prawnsambo wrote: »

Both of which iirc, came as a direct result of importing cattle from NI.

I don't know if that could be said about the original BSE cases first discovered in 1989 or if it was down to contaminated bone meal. I would be interested to find out what was the cause.

CelticRambler

prawnsambo wrote: »

Maybe it's the fact that they had a big market on their doorstep and didn't need to look outwards, but I often wonder was this part of the decline in British engineering, which just died a slow death as the EU opened up and they didn't take advantage of the opportunities it provided and weren't prepared to up their game to compete with the rest of Europe.

I'd go along with that. Away from politics, I see a lot of similarities in the mentalities of the (southern) English and the French. The latter have a reputation for great cheese, great wine, great cuisine, great tourism, great fashion; in reality, the vast majority of all that is fake fur and shabby grey knickers, and for the same reason. Protectionism and a belief that they're the best in the world meant French businesses sold to themselves and settled for mediocrity. When the EU came along, instead of taking advantage of new opportunities, the French fell back on their tradition of protectionism.

I don't think the British are quite as handicapped as the French, though, when it comes to finding creative ways out of a bad predicament. The most common remark about Brexit that I hear in France is that it's a shame Britain is leaving - because now young French people will have go somewhere else to enjoy the professional freedom and innovation that's missing in France! :rolleyes: