Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

blackwhite

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think a lot of Irish people actually know/knew about the British input to the 2nd WW because they took part in it - both fighting in British uniforms and working in the munitions factories. Also, the Irish authorities were neutral on the side of the Allies, providing them with valuable intelligence - in particular the vital weather forecast before D-Day.

Many people in Ireland have relations in the UK and know a lot about the UK.

Most Irish people have grown up exposed to more UK television channels than Irish ones.

That's always going to have a slant on viewpoints as well TBH.

Harry Palmr

WW2 also secured the internal structure of the CCCP . Stalin was fighting more than one war at the time.

We may have drifted off topic here!

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Back on topic, please.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: Back on topic, please.

Off topic posts deleted.

Strazdas

That was a fantastic press conference by Soubry, Allen and Wollaston. They came out with all guns blazing......made the Labour rebels press conference look like a damp squib in comparison.

Nody

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That's like saying driving off the cliff is the most viable option because it is less effort than truning the wheel or hitting the brakes.


"Viable" literally means possible by extension from "able to live". Driving off a cliff is not viable just because it is easy - it is lethal.

Yes but we're talking about a parliament that's taken every opportunity to NOT take any responsibility or provide any guidance on Brexit. They don't like it but refuse to do anything about it and since anything but hard crash out requires them to actually make a decision with majority the most viable route is crash out based on their actions to date. Yes they will bitch and moan about it but when asked to actually step up and do something they shirk their responsibility and will drive off the cliff blaming anyone and everyone for it.

Call me Al

blackwhite wrote: »

Most Irish people have grown up exposed to more UK television channels than Irish ones.

That's always going to have a slant on viewpoints as well TBH.

We are extensively exposed to UK media, and yet we can see what their general populations are blind to.... that they've been lied to.
This indicates to me that that the media isn't solely to blame for the political dilemma they've found themselves in (And I appreciate you never said it was!).
Maybe the media is stoking the divisions but I think there are more intrinsic causes at play. Their electoral system, school systems as well as the elites they create, their colonial past and the selective editing in that regard, amongst others things.

BonnieSituation

Strazdas wrote: »

That was a fantastic press conference by Soubry, Allen and Wollaston. They came out with all guns blazing......made the Labour rebels press conference look like a damp squib in comparison.

I take back my crocodile tears comment from last week re Soubry.

The resignation letter hit the nail on the head.

I'm looking forward to hearing the presser.

VinLieger

Sturgeons comment absolutely nails them both


https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1098198173657583617

Quin_Dub

boggerman1 wrote: »

Was listening to pmq's today (I know how sad!) and it was the most downbeat one I've heard in a while.both the maybot and Jeremy the commi sounded like beaten dockets.same old same old stuff.rule out no deal,vote for the deal ,re open talks on the backstop etc.whatever about our country's history with the UK and while I may take a little bit of delight in their comeuppance this is sad to watch a country tearing itself to shreds over a perceived greatness and empire

##Mod Note##

Cut out the silly nicknames please.

BonnieSituation

VinLieger wrote: »

Sturgeons comment absolutely nails them both


https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1098198173657583617

She's just quality all the way through.

Strazdas

VinLieger wrote: »

Sturgeons comment absolutely nails them both


https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1098198173657583617

Yes, two quite terrible leaders, both committed to implementing Brexit.

LuckyLloyd

Strazdas wrote: »

That was a fantastic press conference by Soubry, Allen and Wollaston. They came out with all guns blazing......made the Labour rebels press conference look like a damp squib in comparison.

Much stronger, though shouldn't be surprising: they have clear genuine positions on Brexit and lament the loss of the Cameron / Osborne platform whereas the Labour rebels were trying to sell a fabricated non issue as their main reason for leaving.

BonnieSituation

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Much stronger, though shouldn't be surprising: they have clear genuine positions on Brexit and lament the loss of the Cameron / Osborne platform whereas the Labour rebels were trying to sell a fabricated non issue as their main reason for leaving.

What was the fabrication?

kunst nugget

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What was the fabrication?

Presumably they're taking about the claims of antisemitism that plague the Labour party.

Panrich

This is going to make the Brexit endgame fascinating viewing. There are none too subtle hints of more defections to follow and it's going to be interesting how this affects Mays next movements. Can she double down on ERG/DUP positions and risk these defections? If the stakes for this country were not so high, it would be popcorn time. In any event, there's finally a group that the majority of remainers can feel are representing their views.

Seth Brundle

Is this indicating a complete softening of the UK Gov position?

https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1098234368840159233

ancapailldorcha

Jeremy Hunt once compared the EU to the Soviet Union. That speech looks like a mountain of tired diplomatic cliches.

Akrasia

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Is this indicating a complete softening of the UK Gov position?

https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1098234368840159233

He didn't actually say anything about the EU though.

He said he likes Germany, but that doesn't mean he doesn't still hate the EU.

Water John

So he stuck to the script someone gave him and didn't insult anyone this time.

Hurrache

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Is this indicating a complete softening of the UK Gov position?

https://twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/1098234368840159233

Might get a laugh in Germany anyway
https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1098204224175984641

https://twitter.com/hhesterm/status/1098205946315186176

seamus

A lot of magnifying glasses pointed at Russia over election meddling for Brexit and the US. But interesting that Hunt's aggressive stance on arms deals to Saudi Arabia comes at the same time that the US administration has been caught planning on selling nukes to Saudi.

Rather interesting coincidence...

This is offtopic...again. Please don't respond

J Mysterio

seamus wrote: »

This is offtopic...again. Please don't respond

I'm not sure that's how it works...

Anyway, here is the Soubry/ Allen/ Wollaston press conference from today.

Imagine if all the politicians were in groupings in which they had common beliefs and values. Mad thought, I know.

RobertKK

seamus wrote: »

A lot of magnifying glasses pointed at Russia over election meddling for Brexit and the US. But interesting that Hunt's aggressive stance on arms deals to Saudi Arabia comes at the same time that the US administration has been caught planning on selling nukes to Saudi.

Rather interesting coincidence...

This is offtopic...again. Please don't respond

Conspiracy theory...Trump wants to help Saudi Arabia with nuclear power plants so Iran reacts, this would suit Trump who has Nethanyahu so close it is like an incestuous relationship, and the end game is to bring regime change in Iran, by making Iran react to Saudi Arabia possibly getting nukes - as Saudi wants to produce their own radioactive material for the reactors.
The problem here is Iran did the same and was accused of doing so because they wanted some of their own nuclear material for bombs.

Brexit will just make the UK easier to influence and not for good.
So you say off topic, but a country with a strong military but who is losing influence because of Brexit, is more open to trying to look strong when others know it is not the case, and thus Brexit makes the UK easier to be taken advantage of.
There was a report which said the UK has been avoiding the hard issues in the UN and on the security council that the Netherlands and Sweden have been tackling issues that might upset countries like China. China whom the UK say they want to do more trade with in a post Brexit era.
No doubt they want more business in Saudi Arabia too.
Brexit is just bad, it leaves the UK on it's own trying to influence other nations and everyone knows the UK is in a weak position.

briany

J Mysterio wrote: »

Imagine if all the politicians were in groupings in which they had common beliefs and values. Mad thought, I know.

The Independent Group appears to have a couple of things on which it agrees above all else - that their respective former parties have lost their way, and are opposed to Brexit. As they've said themselves, they are not a political party (at the moment, anyway) but a sort of movement. As Soubry says, she still holds the beliefs that led her to joining the Conservatives in the first place. Maybe that's true for all the MPs in this. If it is true, it would make you wonder what the long-term future of this group would be. Do they eventually form a true centrist party, perhaps unifying with the Lib Dems (whose brand has been tainted for the last few years), or would they be open to rejoining their old parties if those parties shifted back toward the centre?

J Mysterio

This heave is just symptomatic of the absolute clusterfock that is UK politics. A bunch of MPs from both sides of 'the political divide' coalescing together as both of their parties are so dysfunctional, led by useless leaders who refuse to make tough decisions and just hope it will all work out.

If May had faced down the idiots in her party long ago, we wouldnt be in this position. She gets a lot of credit for being stubborn and 'hanging in there' but my analysis is that she didnt have the guts to lead when she needed to. Now it's basically too late.

Both May and Corbyn talk out of both sides of their mouth and rarely - if ever - say what they mean and what they honestly believe. Neither are leaders, they are just there through circumstance. They are both useless and should shoulder a good portion of the blame for the sudden shocking downfall of the UK.

Even after these resignations, they are not altering their course or their discourse... it's steady on ahead! Same self righteous rubbish from Corbyn and same unbelievable fingers in the ears stuff from May. Shoddy, shoddy, shoddy.

There needs to be a massive shift for anything to change. As much as these 11 have good intentions, it will change nothing by itself. Its more symbolic and to ease their conscience.

Strazdas

J Mysterio wrote: »

This heave is just symptomatic of the absolute clusterfock that is UK politics. A bunch of MPs from both sides of 'the political divide' coalescing together as both of their parties are so dysfunctional, led by useless leaders who refuse to make tough decisions and just hope it will all work out.

If May had faced down the idiots in her party long ago, we wouldnt be in this position. She gets a lot of credit for being stubborn and 'hanging in there' but my analysis is that she didnt have the guts to lead when she needed to. Now it's basically too late.

Both May and Corbyn talk out of both sides of their mouth and rarely - if ever - say what they mean and what they honestly believe. Neither are leaders, they are just there through circumstance. They are both useless and should shoulder a good portion of the blame for the sudden shocking downfall of the UK.

Even after these resignations, they are not altering their course or their discourse... it's steady on ahead! Same self righteous rubbish from Corbyn and same unbelievable fingers in the ears stuff from May. Shoddy, shoddy, shoddy.

There needs to be a massive shift for anything to change. As much as these 11 have good intentions, it will change nothing by itself. Its more symbolic and to ease their conscience.

Real leadership would involve telling the British public that Brexit is a disaster and likely to seriously damage the UK. Instead May and Corbyn have gone for the coward's option of "respecting the referendum result" and "failing to do so would be a betrayal of democracy" - that is not leadership.

VinLieger

J Mysterio wrote: »

I'm not sure that's how it works...

Anyway, here is the Soubry/ Allen/ Wollaston press conference from today.

Imagine if all the politicians were in groupings in which they had common beliefs and values. Mad thought, I know.

Theres one point i found fascinating in all of that, the PM's office and the whips made no effort to reach out and stop any of them leaving.

It just shows May only cares about what the ERG and DUP think.

Imreoir2

VinLieger wrote: »

Theres one point i found fascinating in all of that, the PM's office and the whips made no effort to reach out and stop any of them leaving.

It just shows May only cares about what the ERG and DUP think.

I'm not sure about that. There was quite likely efforts made priviatly to convince them to stay. Once they have chosen to go and made that intention known publicly there is not much point begging them to stay, it just makes you look desperate.

Timberrrrrrrr

Strazdas wrote: »

Real leadership would involve telling the British public that Brexit is a disaster and likely to seriously damage the UK. Instead May and Corbyn have gone for the coward's option of "respecting the referendum result" and "failing to do so would be a betrayal of democracy" - that is not leadership.

Are you saying that the referendum result should be ignored? Do you not think that it would be a betrayal of democracy to do so?