Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

just enlighten me as i am struggling on this one

Another from your playbook, feigning that you don't know what you're at.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If the EU was the shambles that you refer to then surely every country within the EU would be as bad as Britain!
The EU may have issue but nothing when compared to the UK.
Your DUP unionist pride is clouding your judgement. Travel the world and see for yourself: Britain is a laughing stock due to its incompetence and its been like this for quite a while.

Well I like honesty, so i will accept 'shambles' may have been an exaggeration. I should have probably used words like dysfunctional, extravagant, undemocratic, etc. So i apologise for the word shambles as it was a bit harsh.

Now back to my question. You said the UK people want out of EU because on systemic problems in UK society - Are you suggesting it has zero to do with how the EU operates?

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

undemocratic, etc.

You might have heard, but there's a sense of urgency around extending article 50 because of these things called European elections. But again you know how the EU works in this regard as it's been explained to you previously.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You made a statement.
I asked you to back it up.
You asked me another question without answering mine.

So maybe now you will tell us how the EU is a shambles?

The clue is in the question mark ie it was a question. But i think this has gone in a downword direction long enough and other posters can make up their own minds which posters have been avoiding questions that are too difficult on the last couple of pages.

josip

downcow wrote: »

The clue is in the question mark ie it was a question. But i think this has gone in a downword direction long enough and other posters can make up their own minds which posters have been avoiding questions that are too difficult on the last couple of pages.

Why do you think the EU is a shambles downcow?

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Well I like honesty, so i will accept 'shambles' may have been an exaggeration. I should have probably used words like dysfunctional, extravagant, undemocratic, etc. So i apologise for the word shambles as it was a bit harsh.

Now back to my question. You said the UK people want out of EU because on systemic problems in UK society - Are you suggesting it has zero to do with how the EU operates?

But you're continuing to make unfounded statements.
In what way is it dysfunctional?
In what way is it extravagant?
In what way is it undemocratic?


As for the UK, the majority of issues within the UK are down to its own internal governance and it's press. British society has long been on a race to the bottom in so many areas.
The political system lets the electorate down.
The education system lets so many students down.
The media are an absolute disgrace
Where would you like me to stop?
There may be issues due to the EU, as in every member state. The majority of EU/UK related issues IMO are down to intransigence by the UK though.

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

You might have heard, but there's a sense of urgency around extending article 50 because of these things called European elections. But again you know how the EU works in this regard as it's been explained to you previously.

Well, as you do regularly, you have demonstrated one of the many possible answers to the question about shambles.
EU is offering an extension to A50 but many on here reckon that in itself will create havoc for upcoming elections and could make EU decisions illegal in certain circumstances - nobody knows if EU will be able to progress legally with elections during an extended A50
....just one of the many

ilovesmybrick

downcow wrote: »

We as you do regularly you have demonstrated one of the many possible answers to the question about shambles.
EU is offering an extension to A50 but many on here reckon that in itself will create havoc for upcoming elections and could make EU decisions illegal in certain circumstances - nobody knows if EU will be able to progress legally with elections during an extended A50
....just one of the many

Umm, that mess has been entirely caused by the paralysis and indecision in the UK parliament for the past three years and is an attempt to at least throw a lifeline to Britain so that alternatives can be worked out. Yes, it will cause havoc, but that's because the mess the UK has caused is potentially going to overlap with the EU's democratic elections and either lead to a situation where there aren't enough MEPs or there are MEPs that are representing a departed country.

You can hardly say that this, completely unforeseen issue caused by Brexit, led to Brexit.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

But you're continuing to make unfounded statements.
In what way is it dysfunctional?
In what way is it extravagant?
In what way is it undemocratic?


As for the UK, the majority of issues within the UK are down to its own internal governance and it's press. British society has long been on a race to the bottom in so many areas.
The political system lets the electorate down.
The education system lets so many students down.
The media are an absolute disgrace
Where would you like me to stop?
There may be issues due to the EU, as in every member state. The majority of EU/UK related issues IMO are down to intransigence by the UK though.

Well at least you are clear (in your mind) who is to blame for all the ills in the world.
If i react to your ridiculous and offensive statements I'll be getting another break for a few days so I am going to let them slide

Igotadose

downcow wrote: »

Well I like honesty, so i will accept 'shambles' may have been an exaggeration. I should have probably used words like dysfunctional, extravagant, undemocratic, etc. So i apologise for the word shambles as it was a bit harsh.

Seems though, that the EU still is getting work done. How is the UK doing? How's the government in Northern Ireland doing? I'd describe both of those as a shambles, and completely disfunctional.

As for extravagant, didn't the NI government collapse because of
1. A corruption scandal around recycling (i.e., theft of taxpayers money)
2. Debate over the potentially inflated cost of an Irish Language program (sounds like a debate over extravagance?)


EU programs continue along, and this undemocratic shambles is going to have elections soon. When't the next UK election?


Others have pointed out that it's not undemocratic - undemocratic is when millions of your citizens ask for a vote on the most consequential political decision in the last few generations and are told they can't have it because, well, they just can't.

So, no, you've made zero case to back up your points.

Now back to my question. You said the UK people want out of EU because on systemic problems in UK society - Are you suggesting it has zero to do with how the EU operates?

I suggest that the UK people, like all people, have limited time to absorb information, and there's been a decades-long operation by the UK media, at the behest of their corporate lords and masters, to undermine the EU in the eyes of the UK voter. The UK political system stands idly by, because it's easier for the politicians to blame someone else rather than do the work for which they're elected. And UK business really doesn't like those pesky regulations and standards (that the UK participates in, via EU membership.)

As for extravagant, wake up here. talk about extravagant! How many MP's do you need?! And two houses, one of which is largely symbolic? Let alone a monarchy that's really just their for entertainment purposes? The monarchy is profitable (though hard to get this data) but it's tourism money, which is fickle. And when the UK exits, interest in the monarchy might drop off.

prawnsambo

Peregrinus wrote: »

We'd have to increase them by an awful lot; 50% of Irish beef exports go to the UK. To make up for the loss of this, the rest of the EU would have to more than double the amount of Irish beef they currently take and, while it would be nice if they did, is their any reason why we should expect them to? They're not going to suddenly start eating more beef; why would they?

I don't think it's that much. In 2017, it was about one third.

Pa8301

downcow wrote: »

The clue is in the question mark ie it was a question. But i think this has gone in a downword direction long enough and other posters can make up their own minds which posters have been avoiding questions that are too difficult on the last couple of pages.

No, you described the EU as a shambles. When asked to back up your statement you studiously avoided doing so. Which is a common trait with your posting here.

For someone to answer your question, they would need to accept that the EU is a shambles. You tried to hide your bald faced assertion in the form of a question and then cry hypocrisy when people rightfully take you to task for it.

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

Now that Anna Soubry has lost all integrity by wanting a second vote on the one she lost (EU remain) but running scared from a second vote on the one she won (election to HoC), I am curious about how far this inconsistency would stretch.

if there was a second referendum and result was flipped i.e. an equally close vote to remain, do you think we should check again to be sure?
...and if NI vote to leave and the others vote to stay, how should that affect the way ahead?

Isn't that simply the flip side of your lot refusing to hold a second in/out referendum?

You haven't a clue what democracy is.

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

Well, as you do regularly, you have demonstrated one of the many possible answers to the question about shambles.
EU is offering an extension to A50 but many on here reckon that in itself will create havoc for upcoming elections and could make EU decisions illegal in certain circumstances - nobody knows if EU will be able to progress legally with elections during an extended A50
....just one of the many

Oh look, immediate deflection when you're pulled up on your claims about it being undemocratic. And amazingly you try claim your deflection is an actual genuine point to back up your initial claim.

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

Well I like honesty, so i will accept 'shambles' may have been an exaggeration. I should have probably used words like dysfunctional, extravagant, undemocratic, etc. So i apologise for the word shambles as it was a bit harsh.

Now back to my question. You said the UK people want out of EU because on systemic problems in UK society - Are you suggesting it has zero to do with how the EU operates?

examples please?

ArmaniJeanss

Anna Soubry must 100% face an election for her seat by at the latest June 2022 (or resign her seat) so the analogy doesn't really work.

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

Well at least you are clear (in your mind) who is to blame for all the ills in the world.
If i react to your ridiculous and offensive statements I'll be getting another break for a few days so I am going to let them slide

Not the first time you've hid behind your fear of getting a 'break' in refusing to answer a question. The truth, obvious to all, is that you've nothing to say to factually contradict the points put to you.

These should all be easy points for you to dispute if you believe them to be incorrect. i.e.

The political system lets the electorate down.
The education system lets so many students down.
The media are an absolute disgrace

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

downcow wrote: »

Well, as you do regularly, you have demonstrated one of the many possible answers to the question about shambles.
EU is offering an extension to A50 but many on here reckon that in itself will create havoc for upcoming elections and could make EU decisions illegal in certain circumstances - nobody knows if EU will be able to progress legally with elections during an extended A50
....just one of the many

Are they?

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Well at least you are clear (in your mind) who is to blame for all the ills in the world.

You got that from my post?
I'm not sure how. I criticised the UK and gave reasons why. Didn't think I criticised the entire world. :rolleyes:

downcow wrote: »

If i react to your ridiculous and offensive statements I'll be getting another break for a few days so I am going to let them slide

I don't see how as long as you post within the rules, like most people here.

The core difference between your posts and mine is that when I made a statement, I backed it up. I have also answered your questions.
You on the other hand continue to throw a grenade in with your statements and when challenged you tend to deflect or go on the defensive and complain how you're treated unfairly.

Now, I asked you a few more questions in response to one of your last grenades, maybe you will answer honestly and maturely?

Seth Brundle wrote: »

But you're continuing to make unfounded statements.
In what way is it dysfunctional?
In what way is it extravagant?
In what way is it undemocratic?

Professor Moriarty

I wish Anna Soubry would move to Ireland. I'd vote for her in a heartbeat. Smart, principled and brave. An example of which is that she is the only Tory to apologise to Ireland for the impact Brexit will have on our country.

VinLieger

downcow wrote: »

Well at least you are clear (in your mind) who is to blame for all the ills in the world.
If i react to your ridiculous and offensive statements I'll be getting another break for a few days so I am going to let them slide

LOL what exactly in that post was offensive?



Stop hiding behind the mods to avoid having to admit your position to be the hypocritical, blinkered, illogical mess that it is.

VinLieger

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I wish Anna Soubry moved to Ireland. I'd vote for her in a heartbeat. Smart, principled and brave. An example of which is that she is the only Tory to apologise to Ireland for the impact Brexit will have on our country.

Indeed was very impressed with her natural ability at the podium yesterday, comes across as very well spoken, intelligent and most importantly principled

Hurrache

A continuation of the theme of the UK gov talking out of both sides of their mouth from yesterday after the speech saying we need EU help on Brexit because we're all friends, but there'll be consequences if you don't let us trade with Saudi Arabia
https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1098490103129874434

lawred2

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I wish Anna Soubry would move to Ireland. I'd vote for her in a heartbeat. Smart, principled and brave. An example of which is that she is the only Tory to apologise to Ireland for the impact Brexit will have on our country.

Should have heard a BBC vox pop from her constituency... depressing. Talk about not knowing what you've got. The majority were plain nasty and vindictive in tone.

Obviously it's just a vox pop and a small sample set so not necessarily representative but those 'contributors' will fully deserve whatever is coming their way.

Even after two years - the hate is still strong in them.

Seth Brundle

Another prediction of doom and gloom for grocery shoppers...

A no-deal Brexit could lead to tariffs of 40% or more being imposed on food such as beef and cheddar cheese, driving up prices in shops and squeezing household budgets across the UK and Ireland, retail organisations from both countries have warned.

With mounting fears that the UK could leave the European Union without an agreement in 36 days’ time, the British Retail Consortium (BRC), Northern Ireland Retail Consortium (NIRC) and Retail Ireland, issued a joint warning that this outcome could lead to delays at borders and shortages of fresh meat, fish, fruit and vegetables.
<snip>
This would mean a 42% tariff on imported cheddar, 46% on mozzarella, 40% on beef, 21% on tomatoes and 15.5% on apples, the BRC said.

Ornua, the Irish dairy company behind the Kerrygold brand, started stockpiling cheddar in the UK last autumn as a safeguard against a big price hike in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

Last year one of the UK’s largest dairy producers, based in Northern Ireland, warned that leaving the customs union under a hard Brexit could lead to the price of meat doubling in the UK and the price of dairy, half of which is imported, rising by up to 50%.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/21/uk-and-ireland-retailers-warn-of-40-tariffs-on-food-in-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

seamus

Hurrache wrote: »

A continuation of the theme of the UK gov talking out of both sides of their mouth from yesterday after the speech saying we need EU help on Brexit because we're all friend, but there'll be consequences if you don't let us trade with Saudi Arabia

Yeah, this thing of bare-faced lying to other countries has been constant throughout May's tenure. "We cherish the same freedoms and values". Except those freedoms and values that relate to despotic regimes murdering journalists who speak openly.

May usually does it though by saying one thing at home and another in Europe. Odd that Hunt would go all out and say two conflicting things to the Germans on the same day.

VinLieger

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, this thing of bare-faced lying to other countries has been constant throughout May's tenure. "We cherish the same freedoms and values". Except those freedoms and values that relate to despotic regimes murdering journalists who speak openly.

May usually does it though by saying one thing at home and another in Europe. Odd that Hunt would go all out and say two conflicting things to the Germans on the same day.

Her Husband works for the largest shareholder in BAE systems, May is woefully compromised when it comes to selling arms

Leroy42

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Another prediction of doom and gloom for grocery shoppers...



https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/21/uk-and-ireland-retailers-warn-of-40-tariffs-on-food-in-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

But the likes of JRm already have a solution to this. They are going to grant tariff free entry for Brazilian beef, US chicken etc. So the grocers are talking as if nothing will change, when the plan is that everything will.

The UK will drop the current standards to allow those products previously controlled to be allowed come in and take over from the likes of EU products. Thus it will 'appear' that the consumer suffered no costs.

Of course it takes no account of the effect on the UK industry or the product standards that that is not something that the local man on the street is gong to be either concerned or knowledgeable about.

RobMc59

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Another prediction of doom and gloom for grocery shoppers...



https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/feb/21/uk-and-ireland-retailers-warn-of-40-tariffs-on-food-in-no-deal-brexit?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Indeed,it looks like beef will be dearer in the UK until they can increase supply and cheaper in Ireland due to a glut!
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/brexit-tariffs-could-force-irish-beef-farmers-out-of-the-british-market/

VinLieger

Prawnsambo pointed out in the MP leaving thread that Anna Soubry is hosting for James O Brien today, organised apparently prior to him going on holiday. Should be a very interesting listen.