Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

lawred2

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I said all sides are to blame including the UK.

We're done here!

Nope. All sides are not to blame here.

Only the UK invoked A50. And the EU presented the framework for agreement of WA back in 2017 and have stuck steadfastly to the tenets of that framework ever since.

Compare that to the UK megaphone loudmouth diplomacy approach.. unworkable red lines followed by unworkable blood red lines.. a quick chat in Berlin back home with a deal by tea time? Well because reasons.... and cars

Time for Ireland to remember its place?

Anyone for another famine?

Sorry pal, but your lame duck attempts at apportioning blame all round are pathetic.

Silent Running

I have to say I'm a bit tired of hearing this is the EU's fault and that is the Irish government's fault. This whole mess lies squarely at the feet of the UK, no-one else!

Also the rubbish that it's impossible to leave the EU. There is a process: trigger Article 50 and leave within 2 years. All it takes is a letter. No-one is stopping the UK from just exiting at any time. But they want to take the silverware with them and not REALLY leave anyway.

Personally, I've had enough of all the posturing and blaming. I wish they's just go. We'll have a European border to deal with on our island, but that's not a mess of our making. We need to accept this position and mitigate the damage as much as possible, then see what the future brings.

First Up

Some people seem obsessed with attributing "blame".

Energy would be more usefully expended on addressing the threats and opportunities arising.

Folkstonian

lawred2 wrote: »

This is quite 'frankly' a stupid line of thinking and reasoning.

It is not the job of the EU to do anything but negotiate with those that HMG selects to be their negotiators.

It is up to HMG to 'know what the commons wants'.. not the EU.

This is the lamest of lame attempts to level blame at the EU.

Not doubt you believe your own claptrap. But just because you believe it yourself doesn't render it anything other than worthless

There aren’t many disagreeing voices left posting here any more - and with posts like this those last remaining one or two will presumably pack it in too. I don’t think it’s fair that you should take such an offensive tone because somebody posts something you don’t like. That is unless you want this thread to be nothing more than an echo chamber, in which case congratulations and keep it up because you’re almost there.

For what it’s worth, I’m not sure there’s any ‘blame’ to be apportioned to either side. But, i find it hard to see how a negotiation can ever be considered successful unless the entity you are dealing with are willing to accept the final state.

lawred2

Folkstonian wrote: »

There aren’t many disagreeing voices left posting here any more - and with posts like this those last remaining one or two will presumably pack it in too. I don’t think it’s fair that you should take such an offensive tone because somebody posts something you don’t like. That is unless you want this thread to be nothing more than an echo chamber, in which case congratulations and keep it up because you’re almost there.

For what it’s worth, I’m not sure there’s any ‘blame’ to be apportioned to either side. But, i find it hard to see how a negotiation can ever be considered successful unless the entity you are dealing with are willing to accept the final state.

I'm sorry you seem put out. Can't help you with that.

Folkstonian

Silent Running wrote: »

I have to say I'm a bit tired of hearing this is the EU's fault and that is the Irish government's fault. This whole mess lies squarely at the feet of the UK, no-one else!

Also the rubbish that it's impossible to leave the EU. There is a process: trigger Article 50 and leave within 2 years. All it takes is a letter. No-one is stopping the UK from just exiting at any time. But they want to take the silverware with them and not REALLY leave anyway.

Personally, I've had enough of all the posturing and blaming. I wish they's just go. We'll have a European border to deal with on our island, but that's not a mess of our making. We need to accept this position and mitigate the damage as much as possible, then see what the future brings.

I don’t agree with the assertion that blame needs to be divided up at all. To apportion blame suggests that somebody is at fault. Britain hasn’t actually done anything other than decide to leave the EU - a right that is available, and will remain so, for any and all member states.

It’s not gone off reservation, it hasn’t ripped up the rule book, it’s put into effect a process that every single EU country agreed was open to it when they signed the Lisbon treaty.

VinLieger

Folkstonian wrote: »

For what it’s worth, I’m not sure there’s any ‘blame’ to be apportioned to either side. But, i find it hard to see how a negotiation can ever be considered successful unless the entity you are dealing with are willing to accept the final state.

I find it hard to see how a negotiation can be considered successful when one side hasnt decided or clearly laid out what is or isnt acceptable, then sends their chief negotiator off to do their work without said details and then tries to blame everyone else when they come back with something that isn't acceptable....... and then all they continue to say is "we want something else"

A Dub in Glasgo

Enzokk wrote: »

I could have it wrong but didn't they take the talks of independence more slowly since the 2017 GE? They did lose 21 seats and it seems to me that much of that could be as a result of their insistence on another independence referendum when not much has changed.

The Scottish Government stated after the GE that they would wait until the terms of Brexit are known. I think they misjudged the farcical nature of the Tories when they thought this lot could negotiate for something that would be known in the Autumn last year

I think the reason they lost the seats were twofold

1. They won 95% of seats the previous election and there was no chance of them repeating that - some very marginal ones as well
2. Tactical voting from Labour / Lib Dems / Tories to keep out the SNP candidate. The SNP still got almost 60% of the seats. Some of the ones they kept were marginal and some of the ones they lost were marginal

Folkstonian

lawred2 wrote: »

I'm sorry you seem put out. Can't help you with that.

You absolutely could. You could try changing your aggressive and insulting tone.

I find it strange that you would routinely post on a discussion board in such a fashion that will drive away other contributors. Don’t you want to even read other opinions? Nobody is forcing you to agree with them

mrbrianj

Folkstonian wrote: »

There aren’t many disagreeing voices left posting here any more - and with posts like this those last remaining one or two will presumably pack it in too. I don’t think it’s fair that you should take such an offensive tone because somebody posts something you don’t like. That is unless you want this thread to be nothing more than an echo chamber, in which case congratulations and keep it up because you’re almost there.

For what it’s worth, I’m not sure there’s any ‘blame’ to be apportioned to either side. But, i find it hard to see how a negotiation can ever be considered successful unless the entity you are dealing with are willing to accept the final state.

Likewise, if you don't get everything you demanded at the start of the process.

Laois_Man

Folkstonian wrote: »

I don’t agree with the assertion that blame needs to be divided up at all. To apportion blame suggests that somebody is at fault. Britain hasn’t actually done anything other than decide to leave the EU - a right that is available, and will remain so, for any and all member states.

It’s not gone off reservation, it hasn’t ripped up the rule book, it’s put into effect a process that every single EU country agreed was open to it when they signed the Lisbon treaty.

Yeah....Its the stupid Lisbon Treaty's fault for not spelling out in plain language...."if thou invoke article 50 without first having a friggin clue what your negotiating position is, thou art an idiot"!

20silkcut

Folkstonian wrote: »

I don’t agree with the assertion that blame needs to be divided up at all. To apportion blame suggests that somebody is at fault. Britain hasn’t actually done anything other than decide to leave the EU - a right that is available, and will remain so, for any and all member states.

It’s not gone off reservation, it hasn’t ripped up the rule book, it’s put into effect a process that every single EU country agreed was open to it when they signed the Lisbon treaty.

Would have all been fine if the border was in the Irish Sea.
And if such an option was available I’m sure everyone would jump on it right now.

mcbert

Folkstonian wrote: »

You absolutely could. You could try changing your aggressive and insulting tone.

Huh? Because he use the word 'claptrap' ? You and me have a different understanding of the words 'aggressive and insulting'...

lawred2

Folkstonian wrote: »

I don’t agree with the assertion that blame needs to be divided up at all. To apportion blame suggests that somebody is at fault. Britain hasn’t actually done anything other than decide to leave the EU - a right that is available, and will remain so, for any and all member states.

It’s not gone off reservation, it hasn’t ripped up the rule book, it’s put into effect a process that every single EU country agreed was open to it when they signed the Lisbon treaty.

Yes they decided to leave the EU. Which is their sovereign right.

Pity they can't figure out how to follow through on that decision.

That's everyone else's fault though.

Seth Brundle

I admit that I hadn't have perceived it this way...

https://twitter.com/BBCNolan/status/1098899936081571840

Leroy42

There is nothing stopping the UK from leaving. They could, theoritically left 2 years ago if they wished. They could definitely leave without anybody stopping them on 29th March.

However, leaving and having no consequences are not the same. Just like you can walk out of your marriage tomorrow wouldn't mean you suddenly have no liability for the t mortgage or the kids. And, following the same, if you want to be able to stay friends with your OH, you need to consider what is workable.

So, at least the ERG are agreeing that nothing is stopping the UK form leaving, in fact it appears they are happy to do so.

But the problem is that that would leave the UK in a terrible state. Only yesterday, Liam Fox admitted that the majority of non EU trade deals with 2rd countries will not be rolled over. So no deal with Japan for example. This is despite Fox telling us repeatedly that they would all be rolled over a 1 minute after Brexit.

Folkstonian

lawred2 wrote: »

Yes they decided to leave the EU. Which is their sovereign right.

Pity they can't figure out how to follow through on that decision.

That's everyone else's fault though.

The EU isn’t at fault just because it’s terms aren’t agreeable to Britain.

Britain has no divine right to have its ambitions for the future relationship agreed upon by Europe. And Europe isn’t doing anything wrong by standing by terms that are unacceptable to the British Parliament.

The reverse is true of Britain.

So why the talk of fault and blame at all? That’s simply what I don’t understand.

Leroy42

The blame doesn't come from the negotiations, each party is of course right and proper to try to maximise what they get.

The blame towards the UK comes from the approach they have taken. Not having any plan prior to triggering A50. Davis not preparing for or taking part in the negotiations. Painting red lines that didn't even coincide with each other.

Selling out to the DUP in order to maintain a government. Making a deal in December 2017 before cancelling it and then when a new deal was reached letting that be talked down almost immediately.

Not involving the HoC at any stage. Refusing to listen to the people. Refusing to listen to experts. I could go on.

A Dub in Glasgo

Folkstonian wrote: »

So why the talk of fault and blame at all? That’s simply what I don’t understand.

The whole stance from those who want Brexit is that it is the fault of the EU and in particular Ireland for the forthcoming hard border. When people get wrongly blamed, they tend to respond accordingly... it is quite understandable

Akrasia

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The EU don't trust May to deliver as she has reneged on a deal already. Also, they don't trust a parliament and parties that are fragmenting before their eyes. Nor do they trust a Tory party that is the glove puppet of the ERG. Very simply, Britain is not trusted anymore.

And justifiably so. The reason there needs to be a backstop at all is because the UK have assured the EU that they can implement a frictionless border in NI using their magic beans and the EU have said 'ok, we'll let you try that, but just in case, we need a backstop'

It's so obvious that May's technological solution to the border is a lie that the likes of the ERG know that the backstop will be required and may need to remain active indefinitely until a real solution to the border is agreed.

briany

The likes of Jim Allister and Sammy Wilson are playing a very obvious game. The know things like Allister's comment above are mad, but they're said precisely to stoke tensions and division. They want to reinforce a hard border by invoking feelings of hostility from those south of it, and plenty will bite on the bait that Allister's dangling. Don't rise to it.

Infini

Sadly no matter what is said its down to 3 choices for the UK:

Swallow their pride and accept the WA, thats the deal take it or leave it thats all they'll get. This is only the first part of the withdrawal though yet they keep arguing...

Abandon this farce of an excersise and own the problems they created. The EU isnt responsible for their incompetence get their damn house in order and sort their problems instead of blaming others.

Do nothing or squabble to themselves till they crash out and wreck their own country in an unneeded excercise of idiotic and ignorant stupidity.

ToBeFrank123

lawred2 wrote: »

This is quite 'frankly' a stupid line of thinking and reasoning.

It is not the job of the EU to do anything but negotiate with those that HMG selects to be their negotiators.

It is up to HMG to 'know what the commons wants'.. not the EU.

This is the lamest of lame attempts to level blame at the EU.

Not doubt you believe your own claptrap. But just because you believe it yourself doesn't render it anything other than worthless

Bullsh*t. And you know it.

We all know how the EU operates. They hammer out deals at 2am in the morning between leaders and expect everyone to fall into line.

Unfortunately they forgot that their deal had to get through the House of Commons.

Therefore the ignorance of EU, Irish and indeed UK negotiators was staggering as is the ignorance of those who thought because it was rubber stamped in the middle of the night in Europe, that the House of Commons would simply roll over.

I'd ask you to familiarize yourself with Parliamentary democracy first before posting more nonsense.

We have experience in Ireland of the EU trying to shove stuff down our throat. Well done to the HOC for standing up the dictators in Europe.

As I keep repeating, what was agreed by EU leaders was worhless. This is not my opinion for the one millionth time, its been borne out by facts, particularly the fact that the HOC rejected it.

If you keep ignoring key facts, this discussion is going nowhere fast.

ToBeFrank123

I've tried to focus on facts, the number one fact being if you don't get a deal through the HOC, its Hard Border all day long. I wish people would focus on this fact too.

Blaming UK parliamentary democracy is laughable. The very same people would be outraged if the UK tried to go to war without running it by parliament first. Theresa May could agree with Donald Trump for example that she will go to war, but if she can't get it past the HOC it aint happening.

I don't think I can explain this in simpler terms.

Inquitus

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Bullsh*t. And you know it.

We all know how the EU operates. This hammer out deals at 2am in the morning between leaders and expect everyone to fall into line.

Unfortunately they forgot that their deal had to get through the House of Commons.

Therefore the ignorance of EU, Irish and indeed UK negotiators was staggering as is the ignorance of those who thought because it was rubber stamped in the middle of the night in Europe, that the House of Commons would simply roll over.

I'd ask you to familiarize yourself with Parliamentary democracy first before posting more nonsense.

We have experience in Ireland of the EU trying to shove stuff down our throat. Well done to the HOC for standing up the dictators in Europe.

As I keep repeating, what was agreed by EU leaders was worhless. This is not my opinion for the one millionth time, its been borne out by facts, particularly the fact that the HOC rejected it.

If you keep ignoring key facts, this discussion is going nowhere fast.

That's nonsense, it's incumbent upon the PM when doing negotiations to ensure she has her Government aligned behind her, at least in sufficient numbers to approve of what she is negotiating.

Professor Moriarty

Folkstonian wrote: »

The EU isn’t at fault just because it’s terms aren’t agreeable to Britain.

Britain has no divine right to have its ambitions for the future relationship agreed upon by Europe. And Europe isn’t doing anything wrong by standing by terms that are unacceptable to the British Parliament.

The reverse is true of Britain.

So why the talk of fault and blame at all? That’s simply what I don’t understand.

Well, it's turning out to be a disaster. Blame is important because you then know how made what mistakes. You can then learn from that knowledge. For instance, the EU won't trust May or the Tories to deliver on any deal again.

Inquitus

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

I've tried to focus on facts, the number one fact being if you don't get a deal through the HOC, its Hard Border all day long. I wish people would focus on this fact too.

The backstop is the only thing that prevents a hard border. Why would we compromise on it to avoid a hard border, when that just kicks the can down the road, and allows for a hard border at any time of the UK's choosing?

Leroy42

You blame the EU when really it is TM fault. She totally underestimated the feelings of the HoC.

Imagine if the EU started telling TM that she could not do this or that because of how they felt the HoC would vote.

Taking back control by blaming everyone else.

The key difference that the EU sent in its negotiating team with clear guidelines and instructions and TM went in without even discussing her plan with her own party. Remember that she had agreed the backstop in December 2017 before the DUP got wind of it and called her to cancel it. So far from having support from the HoC, she didn't even talk to her own partners in government.

So, if I'm buying a car and pick it in Orange, is it the car dealers fault when I go to collect it with the OH and they hate it? Should the dealer take it back and simply offer me another car that they have to order?

The HoC is a sovereign UK institution. TM has treated it like an irrelevance and that is part of the problem.

seamus

I see the mask has slipped.

An EU negotiating team, and a UK negotiating team sat down and worked out a deal that satisfied all of the requirements that those teams had been sent there to fulfill.

The EU negotiating team brought their deal back to 27 separate parliaments who all approved it.

The UK negotiating team brought their deal back to 1 parliament, who rejected it outright.

The UK parliament then sent a new negotiating team back to renegotiate the deal, but without providing any information about what was wrong with it.


And somehow, this is the EU's fault.

ToBeFrank123

Leroy42 wrote: »

The blame doesn't come from the negotiations, each party is of course right and proper to try to maximise what they get.

The blame towards the UK comes from the approach they have taken. Not having any plan prior to triggering A50. Davis not preparing for or taking part in the negotiations. Painting red lines that didn't even coincide with each other.

Selling out to the DUP in order to maintain a government. Making a deal in December 2017 before cancelling it and then when a new deal was reached letting that be talked down almost immediately.

Not involving the HoC at any stage. Refusing to listen to the people. Refusing to listen to experts. I could go on.

I agree with some of your points.

But allowing a Hard Border go ahead to spite the Brits is a clear case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Most of the UK leaders don't care about a Hard Border on the island of Ireland. Some like Mogg welcome it.