Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I look forward to a post-Brexit HoC where English MPs are scrambling for scarce money to bail out their constituencies and the subject of NI's 10 billion budget comes up.

I'd say the foreign aid budget will go first. It was UKIP's only non-Brexit policy.

downcow

Wrong. I have my special status courtesy of the gfa not Ireland. So at least be honest.
If it was courtesy of Ireland then you could remove it from us. But unfortunately for you that gfa you have such love for won’t let you take those rights of us. Ironic isn’t it

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This is an incredibly snide comment actually. It's mocking a peace agreement and that is pretty damn despicable.

That’s very strong language in response to a fairly benign statement above.
Both you and me know your reason for saying that and we’ll see in due corse if your tactic works.

This is about viewpoints. I have felt it has been ‘damn despicable’ of the roi, Eu and many on here to have used the gfa for their on devices over months. I refrained from describing their behaviour, until now, in terms as you just did.
So I suppose I have came to a position of thinking I may as well use the gfa for my uses eg travel around Europe.
Does that make sense to you?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It is the standard DUP position and contradiction though...we oppose the GFA but we will take advantage of it if it suits us and operate the bits we like.

We are learning from the masters of this technique in Eu and roi

lawred2

CelticRambler wrote: »

Here we go again: The UK is great because difference and diversity is good, and the EU would be better if there was more difference and diversity. But we have to leave the EU because we don't want to have to live with people who are different or diverse.

Cake. Eating it. :rolleyes:

Imagine thinking the EU wasn't diverse..

Somehow I think downcow's European travels don't go beyond seeking out ye olde pubbe for bitter and steak and ale pies..

Professor Moriarty

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'd say the foreign aid budget will go first. It was UKIP's only non-Brexit policy.

Which would be a shame. It's something of which the UK can be rightly proud.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Wrong. I have my special status courtesy of the gfa not Ireland. So at least be honest.
If it was courtesy of Ireland then you could remove it from us. But unfortunately for you that gfa you have such love for won’t let you take those rights of us. Ironic isn’t it



That’s very strong language in response to a fairly benign statement above.
Both you and me know your reason for saying that and we’ll see in due corse if your tactic works.

This is about viewpoints. I have felt it has been ‘damn despicable’ of the roi, Eu and many on here to have used the gfa for their on devices over months. I refrained from describing their behaviour, until now, in terms as you just did.
So I suppose I have came to a position of thinking I may as well use the gfa for my uses eg travel around Europe.
Does that make sense to you?

Yes, it makes sense. You see nothing of value in the GFA except for things that personally benefit you.. The ability to live in Spain whilst waving your miniature English flag.

It was a despicable thing to say, downcow. Mocking the GFA is not A-OK just because in your imagination, the EU and Ireland have been using it for their own devices.

briany

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I look forward to a post-Brexit HoC where English MPs are scrambling for scarce money to bail out their constituencies and the subject of NI's 10 billion budget comes up.

There are bound to be increased political and social tensions in a hard border NI. I don't think the prospect of increasing economic deprivation thrown in on top of that is something to be looked forward to.

downcow

RobMc59 wrote: »

I admit I'm sketchy about the GFA but if it says there can only be changes within NI with a majority consent would that mean a backstop breaks those terms unless the people of NI agree with it?

Yeah. I gave up pointing this on out. I believe you are completely accurate. Incidentally one of the main authors who won the Nobel peace prize for creating the gfa feels exactly the same as you on this.
But don’t expect to many on here to give that perspective even a seconds consideration

Professor Moriarty

briany wrote: »

There are bound to be increased political and social tensions in a hard border NI. I don't think the prospect of increasing economic deprivation thrown in on top of that is something to be looked forward to.

My point was in the context of a Brexit, not necessarily a hard Brexit.

downcow

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, it makes sense. You see nothing of value in the GFA except for things that personally benefit you.. The ability to live in Spain whilst waving your miniature English flag.

It was a despicable thing to say, downcow. Mocking the GFA is not A-OK just because in your imagination, the EU and Ireland have been using it for their own devices.

Just how exactly did a mock it?

Calina

downcow wrote: »

Wrong. I have my special status courtesy of the gfa not Ireland. So at least be honest.
If it was courtesy of Ireland then you could remove it from us. But unfortunately for you that gfa you have such love for won’t let you take those rights of us. Ironic isn’t it



So I suppose I have came to a position of thinking I may as well use the gfa for my uses eg travel around Europe.
Does that make sense to you?

Dude, there is no GFA without Ireland. No Ireland signing it, no dual citizenship.

Anyway, that other question I asked. What languages do you speak other than English?

Capt'n Midnight

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

See my post with links to articles on impact to Ireland. Not my opinion, the opinion of prominent experts such as IMF and World Bank. A summary of the articles, Ireland has more to lose than the UK.

All European countries including Germany will suffer. There are no winners.

Which basically means the main negotiating blocs including the EU and UK are idiots. They should be doing everything to get an agreement over the line, instead they have dug themslves deeper into their foxholes and are unwilling to concede. They need to just do a bloody deal for everyones sakes.

You are forgetting that the EU is originally a peace project.

As Yugoslavia and Ukraine and the Iron Curtain show there's a lot more at stake than a few % of GDP.


BTW If you compare the potential economic hit of Brexit to growth rates the UK will take more years catch up on lost GDP.

We lose a years growth. The UK as a whole loses 3-5 years. For Northern Ireland and some other regions it's a lost decade.

Calina

downcow wrote: »

Yeah. I gave up pointing this on out. I believe you are completely accurate. Incidentally one of the main authors who won the Nobel peace prize for creating the gfa feels exactly the same as you on this.
But don’t expect to many on here to give that perspective even a seconds consideration

The back stop doesnt per se create changes in NI. It more...prevents changes happening.

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

Yeah. I gave up pointing this on out. I believe you are completely accurate. Incidentally one of the main authors who won the Nobel peace prize for creating the gfa feels exactly the same as you on this.
But don’t expect to many on here to give that perspective even a seconds consideration

Its an interesting point, but it seems to be an infinite regress.

Consider: Yes the people of Northern Ireland would have the final say on any change to the status of the border, or on whether to have the back stop or not. But then that potentially treats northern ireland different to the rest of the UK, which is something that would not be supported by the DUP. But then if the negotiations dont come to anything, and a no deal brexit leads to a hard border, that is a change that was not in keeping with the exact same terms of the GFA. Because it changes the status of northern ireland, and its frontier without consultation with the people of Northern Ireland..

And of course, it is also unhelpful that the devolved parliament is still non-functional atm.

Its both interesting and frightening tbh

20silkcut

downcow wrote: »

Wrong. I have my special status courtesy of the gfa not Ireland. So at least be honest.
If it was courtesy of Ireland then you could remove it from us. But unfortunately for you that gfa you have such love for won’t let you take those rights of us. Ironic isn’t it



That’s very strong language in response to a fairly benign statement above.
Both you and me know your reason for saying that and we’ll see in due corse if your tactic works.

This is about viewpoints. I have felt it has been ‘damn despicable’ of the roi, Eu and many on here to have used the gfa for their on devices over months. I refrained from describing their behaviour, until now, in terms as you just did.
So I suppose I have came to a position of thinking I may as well use the gfa for my uses eg travel around Europe.
Does that make sense to you?

They used the GFA to prevent the emergence of a meandering ridiculous border through the heart of the Irish countryside that makes no sense and nobody wants??

Eu/Roi are some scoundrels.

First Up

downcow wrote:

Wrong. I have my special status courtesy of the gfa not Ireland.

Oh really? Maybe you should do a bit of homework before posting.

downcow

Calina wrote: »

Dude, there is no GFA without Ireland. No Ireland signing it, no dual citizenship

My point was that a poster was wanting me to be very grateful because I was getting freedom to travel courtesy of Ireland.
I’m just pointing out I have it courtesy of gfa. Ireland have zero power to remove it.
Gfa was a compromise. We all took lots of pain in voting for it so I’m happy to take any benifits that go with it.

Maybe you feel ire can remove this freedom from me??

ancapailldorcha

First Up wrote: »

Oh really? Maybe you should do a bit of homework before posting.

Be civil please.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Just how exactly did a mock it?

Hardly surprising that you can't see that But unfortunately for you that gfa you have such love for is mockery.

The fact you'd even think that a core part of the GFA is unfortunate, just because people like yourself benefit from it, is a tad farcical. And saying "that you have such love for" entirely belittles someone's feelings towards something. It's like what a mother would say about a teenager and his Playstation.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The UK attorney general has ruled that the Backstop does not infringe the constitutional position of NI.

No break in the terms of the GFA there.

Does he have the authority to say that-it seems to contravene the agreement?

downcow

20silkcut wrote: »

They used the GFA to prevent the emergence of a meandering ridiculous border through the heart of the Irish countryside that makes no sense and nobody wants??

Eu/Roi are some scoundrels.

Ok so let’s be honest with each other and answer questions in an adult manner.
If the gfa allowed a hard border, would you/roi say ok let’s have a hard border to facilitate a smooth brexit?
...and if you wouldn’t agree to hard border in those circumstances then you are simply useing the gfa to suit your agenda

ilovesmybrick

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/23/uk-food-imports-from-eu-face-9bn-tariff-bill-under-no-deal-brexit

So, a potential cheddar shortage, with costs increasing by 56%, a tariff bill of potentially 9 billion, and retailers unsure of where they will be in 5 weeks due to the uncertainty.

While I've become increasingly sick to my back teeth and jaded by the entire Brexit process, and hope that this phase of nonsense is over with by the end of March so we can move onto the next, far more difficult, stage, who in their right mind in Westminster would oppose an extension so that they can at least create some certainty in terms of supply lines, even if the ultimate intention is a hard Brexit.

Honestly, if it was just the brexiteers I would be happy to leave them float away in the mess they created, but this stupid, stupid process is having damaging effects on friends and family that live and work in the UK. An uncle who has operated a successful business in London for thirty years is f**ked because most of his material comes from Italy-though he actually voted for this and is now shocked that it may collapse his business. I have a cousin who, while born in Ireland, has lived in the UK since a toddler and is now worried that he doesn't have a UK passport and what will happen with that. A mate of mine has lost a fortune on his savings since he kept money he earned in the UK in an UK savings account when he moved back to the continent, so the value of that got screwed and the property he owned has taken a dip in value.

These are all Irish citizens with a privileged position in the UK due to our own arrangements. I know of a large contingent of continental citizens who worked with Google in London have relocated back to the continent because of the massive uncertainty regarding how they could stay in the UK after Brexit. All of these people were a net benefit to the UK economy, and because of Theresa Mays nonsensical views on EU migration they view the UK as an unattractive alternative. While the majority would have preferred to continue living in the UK they felt that it was better to move away. This may be just the circles I move in, but I know that myself and my fiance had discussed moving to the UK in the coming years since as a biomedical researcher scientist it would have been both a useful move for her and it would mean we were closer to home. With the collapse in sterling and the general situation in UK politics we are instead looking at Germany.

This obsession in the UK with the free movement of people seems to be working, but it's working to make the UK a less attractive place for well educated, young migrants. People that are a net benefit to the UK economy to keep things like the NHS and parts of the education system operational.

Calina

downcow wrote: »

My point was that a poster was wanting me to be very grateful because I was getting freedom to travel courtesy of Ireland.
I’m just pointing out I have it courtesy of gfa. Ireland have zero power to remove it.
Gfa was a compromise. We all took lots of pain in voting for it so I’m happy to take any benifits that go with it.

Maybe you feel ire can remove this freedom from me??

The GFA is the vehicle by which Ireland granted it. That Ireland takes its obligations linked with the GFA seriously is laudable.

The UK is not.

What languages do you speak in addition to English?

Calina

downcow wrote: »

Ok so let’s be honest with each other and answer questions in an adult manner.
If the gfa allowed a hard border, would you/roi say ok let’s have a hard border to facilitate a smooth brexit?
...and if you wouldn’t agree to hard border in those circumstances then you are simply useing the gfa to suit your agenda

The GFA does not allow a hard border. This is a nonsense question.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

Ok so let’s be honest with each other and answer questions in an adult manner.
If the gfa allowed a hard border, would you/roi say ok let’s have a hard border to facilitate a smooth brexit?
...and if you wouldn’t agree to hard border in those circumstances then you are simply useing the gfa to suit your agenda

This is a stupid hypothetical and a complete failure of logic, because it rests on the premise that the only reason Ireland doesn't want a hard border is because of the GFA.

Ireland could just as easily argue that there shouldn't be a border since the majority of Northern Irish people didn't vote for Brexit.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Does he have the authority to say that-it seems to contravene the agreement?

Yes he does, he is the AG. The UK Supreme Court has also ruled that the 'consent principle' only applies to whether or not NI remains in the UK.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

Wrong. I have my special status courtesy of the gfa not Ireland.

downcow wrote: »

Gfa was a compromise. We all took lots of pain in voting for it so I’m happy to take any benifits that go with it.

OK, if you took "lots of pain" from the GFA, would it be reasonable to say that you still see it as something negative; and if so, would you support a move to remove your special status as a NI-resident, so that you can be more like the British in Britain?

And while you're here - what about those laws that you want to take control of, that you've been asked to give an example of? Maybe the domestic abuse one, that Anna Soubry pointed at as yet another example of NI exceptionalism? Seemingly the Tories think it's OK for DUP-voters to beat their wives, as long as they do it in the privacy of their own province. Probably helps feed the stereotype of the muck-savage Paddies.

liamtech

Calina wrote: »

The GFA does not allow a hard border. This is a nonsense question.

How does ireland protect the integrity of the common market without a hard border? A no deal with no backstop, requires a hard border. the HOC wont support a Brexit Deal that has a back stop - thats why i think its an infinite regress


https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-must-face-a-border-on-island-or-a-border-between-ireland-and-eu-in-no-deal-brexit-37816814.html

Enzokk

downcow wrote: »

Yeah. I gave up pointing this on out. I believe you are completely accurate. Incidentally one of the main authors who won the Nobel peace prize for creating the gfa feels exactly the same as you on this.
But don’t expect to many on here to give that perspective even a seconds consideration

If only there was a party from NI that had some power in the House of Commons right now and has the ear of the PM, they could then ask her to authorize a referendum for the people of NI on whether they want the backstop to be inserted or not.

I have bad news for you though, your side will not win that argument.

Calina wrote: »

The back stop doesnt per se create changes in NI. It more...prevents changes happening.

I guess the argument is that the HoC doesn't have to ask the people of NI whether they want to Brexit so the backstop would be in the same argument. If you don't have to ask the people of NI about whether they want to be taken out of the EU against their will you don't have to ask them about the backstop.

Calina

liamtech wrote: »

How does ireland protect the integrity of the common market without a hard border? A no deal with no backstop, requires a hard border. the HOC wont support a Brexit Deal that has a back stop - thats why i think its an infinite regress


https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/ireland-must-face-a-border-on-island-or-a-border-between-ireland-and-eu-in-no-deal-brexit-37816814.html

UK is then in contravention.

add: the backstop is not the problem. HOC won't support a deal without Labour offsetting ERG. ERG does not want the deal.