Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

20silkcut

downcow wrote: »

It is difficult to discuss brexit without NI being discussed. Believe me I wish, and have argued here, that gfa and NI are being overly used to force UK to stay

To me this is a massive misconception on the part of hard brexiteers.

From the very outset of Brexit the EU/Roi stated that their preferred option is an Irish Sea border. In terms of natural common sense most would agree. In terms of the general population of Uk mainland most would agree cause they couldn’t give a toss about NI deep down.
UK/DUP won’t agree to that and insist on the ridiculous unnatural, haphazard,meandering ,unwanted , hated land border with the customs union.

Canada style free trade with border down the Irish Sea it would be agreed in the morning but for one party.

liamtech

Berserker wrote: »

They won't. As for a vote, when did the EU ever respect the democratic wishes of the member states? The RoI had to vote again on two(??) referenda because the EU didn't like the first answer. No chance in hell they'd have a vote on it.



You are forgetting about the CTA. You'll have to proceed through an EU border before entering NI anyway.

Right but that is kinda my point - maybe im not being clear and im happy to be criticized but isnt that why an EU border is necessary? and how is an EU border compatible with the CTA?

Again this seems to be a grey area - yes i understand the idea of sharing customs data, but it does leave the UK wide open to the problem america faces (or at least that trump thinks they are facing) - Illegal workers and immigration - and it may be that you could do the same and just fly straight to Heathrow, but if your intention is as i have outlined here - it does make sense to land in dublin - say that you are here for 90 days and go straight to northern ireland - and then the UK via a ferry -

and i might add - even with a hard border this is gonna potentially be a problem - even if there are check points on a hard EU/UK border there is the problem of people just entering illegally

KindOfIrish

liamtech wrote: »

Its interesting. We are not part of schengen but we are part of the EU, and we will have people using ireland, to get into the UK via northern ireland? that does seem fairly inevitable does it not?

As far as know, and I know it for sure, fro the last 15-18 years the current of illegal immigrants has been going in the opposite direction, from UK to Ireland via NI. Why do you think that anyone will have desire to go to post brexit UK? It's very much possible that after Brexit we will experience flood of illegals and asylum seekers from UK.

liamtech

KindOfIrish wrote: »

As far as know, and I know it for sure, fro the last 15-18 years the current of illegal immigrants has been going in the opposite direction, from UK to Ireland via NI. Why do you think that anyone will have desire to go to post brexit UK? It's very much possible that after Brexit we will experience flood of illegals and asylum seekers from UK.

Excellent point yes - and again it begs the question how do you handle that without a very hard border? which violates the spirit of the GFA etc etc - back to square one

It again kinda demonstrates that this wasnt thought through properly from the very start

Berserker

downcow wrote: »

It is difficult to discuss brexit without NI being discussed. Believe me I wish, and have argued here, that gfa and NI are being overly used to force UK to stay

It's simply ridiculous the amount of time being sent on it. NI will be part of the UK when Brexit occurs. The money to keep NI running will be handed over, as usual. Neither Unionists or Nationalists have any interest in damaging the relationship that exists between NI and the RoI. All of the nonsense in coming from the EU and the RoI. Leo, Coveney & Co. deserve a good slap for being such smug pricks and they'll get it.

As for the border, the good republicans will continue to behave like thugs and scumbags. The physical border just gives them an extra problem. They were smuggling drugs, fuel, using safe houses on both sides of the border to managing the prostitution scams .... before the GFA. The GFA didn't stop them and Brexit won't either, as one lad from Tyrone told me.

liamtech wrote: »

Excellent point yes - and again it begs the question how do you handle that without a very hard border? which violates the spirit of the GFA etc etc - back to square one

The spirit of the GFA. Jesus wept.

Professor Moriarty

Berserker wrote: »

It's simply ridiculous the amount of time being sent on it. NI will be part of the UK when Brexit occurs. The money to keep NI running will be handed over, as usual. Neither Unionists or Nationalists have any interest in damaging the relationship that exists between NI and the RoI. All of the nonsense in coming from the EU and the RoI. Leo, Coveney & Co. deserve a good slap for being such smug pricks and they'll get it.

As for the border, the good republicans will continue to behave like thugs and scumbags. The physical border just gives them an extra problem. They were smuggling drugs, fuel, using safe houses on both sides of the border to managing the prostitution scams .... before the GFA. The GFA didn't stop them and Brexit won't either, as one lad from Tyrone told me.



The spirit of the GFA. Jesus wept.

Would you say there are any smug people in the British parliament? Are there any Loyalist "thugs and scumbags"?

liamtech

Berserker wrote: »

It's simply ridiculous the amount of time being sent on it. NI will be part of the UK when Brexit occurs. The money to keep NI running will be handed over, as usual. Neither Unionists or Nationalists have any interest in damaging the relationship that exists between NI and the RoI. All of the nonsense in coming from the EU and the RoI. Leo, Coveney & Co. deserve a good slap for being such smug pricks and they'll get it.

As for the border, the good republicans will continue to behave like thugs and scumbags. The physical border just gives them an extra problem. They were smuggling drugs, fuel, using safe houses on both sides of the border to managing the prostitution scams .... before the GFA. The GFA didn't stop them and Brexit won't either, as one lad from Tyrone told me.



The spirit of the GFA. Jesus wept.

Honestly there is no need for this attitude - and the reason the border isnt explicitely outlined in the GFA was that it wasnt an issue - we were all in the EU - that changes in a matter of weeks now - so it is a problem, and those that signed the agreement and negotiated it are clear on this

reslfj

liamtech wrote: »

Well simply, you would do so via Dublin if you wished to legally enter the Republic of Ireland, and illegally enter the UK via northern ireland

No I would be legally in all of the CTA - like i enter in London and take the train e.g to Scotland.

The continuation plus a bit of streamlining of the CTA is one of the points there is full agreement about - between the UK, The RoI and the EU.

liamtech wrote: »

You show your passport at Dublin airport - in you come -...

If you enter the UK directly, you will be noted as having 90 days

That 90 days registration is but a purely technical problem between the UK and Ireland.
I don't think this problem even exists.
I believe the Irish do record passport info at entry. There are surely no EU regulations that prevents such registration.

The problem is NOT at the border - even if many Brits think so - the problem is down to a lack of an ID and other registrations within the UK.

If I travel to the UK post Brexit, I can still stay and work - illegally - for 90 days, if the UK only relies on control at the border of my EU passport.

Lars

Junkyard Tom

Berserker wrote: »

NI is part of the UK and it is going to leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the UK.

It will not be diverging from from Ireland/EU norms and regulations without inflicting severe damage on Britain as a result.

Membership would be a given because the EU would be delighted to have UK as part of the EU

No it wouldn't.

CelticRambler

liamtech wrote: »

Again this seems to be a grey area - yes i understand the idea of sharing customs data, but it does leave the UK wide open to the problem america faces (or at least that trump thinks they are facing) - Illegal workers and immigration - and it may be that you could do the same and just fly straight to Heathrow, but if your intention is as i have outlined here - it does make sense to land in dublin - say that you are here for 90 days and go straight to northern ireland - and then the UK via a ferry

Well, you only have to look at the American version of this problem: people fly in legally, overstay their visa (or waiver) and become illegal immigrants by default. Tens of thousands of Irish have done it that way for decades. There's absolutely no advantage to anyone wanting to stay in the UK illegally travelling through Ireland. The 90 days counts for nothing if you're planning to stay for an unlimited period.

downcow

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Would you say there are any smug people in the British parliament? Are there any Loyalist "thugs and scumbags"?

So much whataboutery. Someone comes in with an interesting new or developed point and instead of it being answered we get the whataboutery.
I would guess the poster is very aware of loyalist thuggery and that there are a few smug people on all the benches of the hoc but that was not relevant to the point s/he was making.

Professor Moriarty

downcow wrote: »

So much whataboutery. Someone comes in with an interest new or developed point and instead of it being answered we get the whataboutery.
I would guess the poster is very aware of loyalist thuggery and that there are a few smug people on all the benches of the hoc but that was not relevant to the point s/he was making.

So what was their point? I found it difficult to find their point in the post.

liamtech

CelticRambler wrote: »

Well, you only have to look at the American version of this problem: people fly in legally, overstay their visa (or waiver) and become illegal immigrants by default. Tens of thousands of Irish have done it that way for decades. There's absolutely no advantage to anyone wanting to stay in the UK illegally travelling through Ireland. The 90 days counts for nothing if you're planning to stay for an unlimited period.

Well they may not know they are actually there? that could be the potential difference - we arent in schengen yes - so they need a passport - but we dont note it -

anyway its an aside point

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

So much whataboutery. Someone comes in with an interest new or developed point and instead of it being answered we get the whataboutery.

Nothing new at all - same old false and inaccurate Brexiteer propaganda that gets posted every few weeks.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So much whataboutery. Someone comes in with an interest new or developed point and instead of it being answered we get the whataboutery.
I would guess the poster is very aware of loyalist thuggery and that there are a few smug people on all the benches of the hoc but that was not relevant to the point s/he was making.

The UK is NOT, repeat NOT being forced to stay. The UK wants a deal on leaving, and they have gotten one.
That your PM is not able to get it ratified is HER problem, not Ireland's and NOT the EU's.

You can still leave, there is nothing stopping you doing that. If there is, please point to the obstacle.

Capt'n Midnight

liamtech wrote: »

Yes they would be in a different position to that which they are in now - the opt outs wouldnt be there and they would, from the POV of Brexiteers, have no emergency break, as negotiated by Cameron - and yes they might have to be in the Euro Zone

Oh yeah that too.

And the £5bn a year UK rebate from the EU.

“most of our people have never had it so good”
- Harold Macmillan

CelticRambler

liamtech wrote: »

Well they may not know they are actually there? that could be the potential difference - we arent in schengen yes - so they need a passport - but we dont note it -

anyway its an aside point

Not so much "aside" as all that, if you transfer the problem to ordinary Britons travelling to Europe. I don't recall having seen any specific details yet, but most visa-waivers come with time limits, and I know several British passport-holders who will be caught out by a 90-day limit, or the need to have three months remaining on their passport. These are people who effectively live full-time in two different countries (France and England) and travel at relatively short notice for indeterminate periods of time.

Most of them are very very aware of the implications of a hard border - much moreso than hard-core Brexiteers living in a remote corner of an island, almost as far away from the EU as its possible to get ... :rolleyes:

liamtech

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Oh yeah that too.

And the £5bn a year UK rebate from the EU.

“most of our people have never had it so good”
- Harold Macmillan

I am reading back through a lot of this thread - and in all honesty i cant find an argument in favor of No Deal Brexit, OR a Limited Back Stop Brexit, aside from - 'They Won the Referendum' - and yes it is a good reason, the UK and NI are a sovereign state - i am not a republican - but how is this of benefit to the UK as a whole including NI - and specifically to NI itself??

Kermit.de.frog

UK can leave in the morning if it wants.

It does not want that due to the damage to it's economy.

It is looking for a special deal that gives it the advantage of SM access without the responsibilities. The EU won't allow that.

The EU exists to support the member countries.

Hence the mess Britain finds itself in.

Strazdas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

UK can leave in the morning if it wants.

It does not want that due to the damage to it's economy.

It is looking for a special deal that gives it the advantage of SM access without the responsibilities. The EU won't allow that.

The EU exists to support the member countries.

Hence the mess Britain finds itself in.

100% : the UK can ring up Michel Barnier at 9am tomorrow morning and say "We're leaving the EU at midnight tonight" and his response will be "That's fine, thanks for telling us".

Nobody is stopping them leaving.

downcow

CelticRambler wrote: »

Back to today's unanswered question: what law(s) would you most want to see changed when you "take back control"?

I have avoided responding to your endless repeating of this question simply because I don’t want to start posting endless examples of Eu nonsense as it will annoy posters and will no doubt drag the discussion to endless off topic routes.
So here is a very recent one.
If you want more just tell me how many and I’ll put them all in one post for you and recommend others ignore it as most know the nonsense that goes on in Eu.
Here’s you recent one
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gizmodo.com/the-eu-just-finalized-copyright-legislation-that-rewrit-1832632877/amp

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

Good article,if NI citizens who wish to remain UK citizens are excluded from the EHIC scheme I wonder if the UK might reciprocate by saying the NHS would not longer be free for EU citizens as they have done with tariffs on EU produce coming into the UK-the UK would put itself at a disadvantage if everything was free and no tariffs whilst the EU plays hardball.

Some still struggling with the fact that once you leave a club you lose the benefits of that club, but instead naively think it's a game of hardball.

Hurrache

Eh, maybe you'd like to pont out this interesting and developed point?

downcow wrote: »

I have avoided responding to your endless repeating of this question simply because I don’t want to start posting endless examples of Eu nonsense as it will annoy posters and will no doubt drag the discussion to endless off topic routes.

LOL, there's the shambles word again, and you still can't give examples. Tell us why you insist you were a remainer if it was such a shambles? We know you won't answer this, because you never have, nor never will.

You may also want to compare the dates of the Brexit vote and the signing of the copyright directive.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I have avoided responding to your endless repeating of this question simply because I don’t want to start posting endless examples of Eu nonsense as it will annoy posters and will no doubt drag the discussion to endless off topic routes.
So here is a very recent one.
If you want more just tell me how many and I’ll put them all in one post for you and recommend others ignore it as most know the nonsense that goes on in Eu.
Here’s you recent one
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gizmodo.com/the-eu-just-finalized-copyright-legislation-that-rewrit-1832632877/amp

Did the UK object to/vote against that directive? Or is it just your own individual objection to it that has to be recognized?

ToBeFrank123

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

UK can leave in the morning if it wants.

It does not want that due to the damage to it's economy.

It is looking for a special deal that gives it the advantage of SM access without the responsibilities. The EU won't allow that.

The EU exists to support the member countries.

Hence the mess Britain finds itself in.

Some people act as if its only the UKs mess though and only they will be affected.
Think of them an unsociable neighbour, doesn't put the bins put, plays music at all hours, etc Who is affected?

joe40

During the referendum campaign voters were told by farage and co that leaving the EU would be no problem. Trade deals would be easily sorted, cta would take care of Irish border etc.
Now regardless of your opinion on this what is abundantly clear is leaving the EU is not simple.
How are they getting away with this. Votes dumb enough to believe that non sense are now dumb enough to believe it ia all the EU fault. They're also the type of people dumb enough to believe Farage and co when they say a "no deal" would be no problem.
How can a group of people that got it demonstrably so wrong during the campaign still have credibility with a section of the UK population.

Hurrache

joe40 wrote: »

During the referendum campaign voters were told by farage and co that leaving the EU would be no problem. Trade deals would be easily sorted, cta would take care of Irish border etc.
Now regardless of your opinion on this what is abundantly clear is leaving the EU is not simple.
How are they getting away with this. Votes dumb enough to believe that non sense are now dumb enough to believe it ia all the EU fault. They're also the type of people dumb enough to believe Farage and co when they say a "no deal" would be no problem.
How can a group of people that got it demonstrably so wrong during the campaign still have credibility with a section of the UK population.

They didn't get it wrong, they just straight up lied.

ancapailldorcha

UsedToWait wrote: »

I really think you're just here to wind up some taigs, for your own amusement.

Berserker wrote: »

As for the border, the good republicans will continue to behave like thugs and scumbags. .

Cut out the goading language please.

FrancieBrady

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Some people act as if its only the UKs mess though and only they will be affected.
Think of them an unsociable neighbour, doesn't put the bins put, plays music at all hours, etc Who is affected?

It is the UK's mess.

They agreed a deal and now can't ratify it, and May has even said at one stage she was against her own deal, now she is back trying to sell it in parliament again.

Do UKers think that activity in the UK is not able to be seen?

We are waiting for the UK to decide/sort out it's own mess.

Professor Moriarty

downcow wrote: »

I have avoided responding to your endless repeating of this question simply because I don’t want to start posting endless examples of Eu nonsense as it will annoy posters and will no doubt drag the discussion to endless off topic routes.
So here is a very recent one.
If you want more just tell me how many and I’ll put them all in one post for you and recommend others ignore it as most know the nonsense that goes on in Eu.
Here’s you recent one
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gizmodo.com/the-eu-just-finalized-copyright-legislation-that-rewrit-1832632877/amp

Could you answer this question please?