Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

gooch2k9

joe40 wrote: »

During the referendum campaign voters were told by farage and co that leaving the EU would be no problem. Trade deals would be easily sorted, cta would take care of Irish border etc.
Now regardless of your opinion on this what is abundantly clear is leaving the EU is not simple.
How are they getting away with this. Votes dumb enough to believe that non sense are now dumb enough to believe it ia all the EU fault. They're also the type of people dumb enough to believe Farage and co when they say a "no deal" would be no problem.
How can a group of people that got it demonstrably so wrong during the campaign still have credibility with a section of the UK population.

They've been conditioned to see the EU as a them and us situation for many years. The UK media has an awful lot to answer for.

joe40

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

UK can leave in the morning if it wants.

It does not want that due to the damage to it's economy.

It is looking for a special deal that gives it the advantage of SM access without the responsibilities. The EU won't allow that.

The EU exists to support the member countries.

Hence the mess Britain finds itself in.

Some people act as if its only the UKs mess though and only they will be affected.
Think of them an unsociable neighbour, doesn't put the bins put, plays music at all hours, etc Who is affected?

No one, absolutely no one is saying that. Brexit is a negative for everyone, but it was the uk decision.

Professor Moriarty

joe40 wrote: »

During the referendum campaign voters were told by farage and co that leaving the EU would be no problem. Trade deals would be easily sorted, cta would take care of Irish border etc.
Now regardless of your opinion on this what is abundantly clear is leaving the EU is not simple.
How are they getting away with this. Votes dumb enough to believe that non sense are now dumb enough to believe it ia all the EU fault. They're also the type of people dumb enough to believe Farage and co when they say a "no deal" would be no problem.
How can a group of people that got it demonstrably so wrong during the campaign still have credibility with a section of the UK population.

The Daily Mail, The Express, The Telegraph and The Sun.

Capt'n Midnight

liamtech wrote: »

I am reading back through a lot of this thread - and in all honesty i cant find an argument in favor of No Deal Brexit, OR a Limited Back Stop Brexit, aside from - 'They Won the Referendum' - and yes it is a good reason, the UK and NI are a sovereign state - i am not a republican - but how is this of benefit to the UK as a whole including NI - and specifically to NI itself??

"its the will of the people"

vs.

Conservative voters dying out at rate of 2% per year, Lord Heseltine warns


If nothing else changed Remain would likely win just because the blue rinse brigade with their triple lock pensions are dying out.



Part of the problem is Bored of Brexit, people just want them to get on with it.

But March 29 isn't the end , it's only the beginning. If the WA passes, there's two years more of uncertainty. And then it's back to Deal / No Deal / Extension / Please let us back.

A during all that time they'll be negotiating the actual deal with the EU while negotiating new deals with the rest of the world and negotiating within Westminster and within the parties.

And oddly enough the EU is probably the only one that won't be trying to exploit the situation as they value peace and stability in the neighbourhood.


And that's the best case scenario. Anyone who is Bored of Brexit is in for a monumental bore-fest over the next few years.

CelticRambler

downcow wrote: »

So here is a very recent one.
If you want more just tell me how many and I’ll put them all in one post for you and recommend others ignore it as most know the nonsense that goes on in Eu.
Here’s you recent one
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/gizmodo.com/the-eu-just-finalized-copyright-legislation-that-rewrit-1832632877/amp

Interesting. The Directive on Copyright in the Digital Single Market for those who don't want to follow the link. You want to take control of a directive (i.e. a recommendation, not a law, so not binding on any member state) that hasn't yet entered into force, and was supported by ... drum-roll please: the Conservative Party of the United Kingdom and, second drum-roll please: the Labour Party of the United Kingdom.

Explain to me, then - seeing as you picked this as your preferred example - how Britain leaving the EU will allow you in NI to "take back control" of your laws when you don't have a functioning government in Stormont, so you're entirely beholden to the two parties in Westminster, both of which support the directive that you don't want.

Take plenty of time to compose your answer - I'm heading off out for a few hours.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Did the UK object to/vote against that directive? Or is it just your own individual objection to it that has to be recognized?

Folks this is where I knew examples we would take us.
Dammed if I do. Dammed if I don’t.

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

Folks this is where I knew examples we would take us.
Dammed if I do. Dammed if I don’t.

With respect, and i am being respectful - i would love to know why that particular law needs to be 'taken control' of

An Claidheamh

Berserker wrote: »

Neither Unionists or Nationalists have any interest in damaging the relationship that exists between NI and the RoI. All of the nonsense in coming from the EU and the RoI. Leo, Coveney & Co. deserve a good slap for being such smug pricks and they'll get it.

Unionists are getting their comeuppance after decades of damaging their relationship with Ireland.

Also, Beserker, when are Leo and Coveney getting this slap? Approximately?

Better to be smug pr1cks not stupid and ignorant pr1cks.

In my lifetime, I've never seen British nationalism and unionism in a bigger hole.
No trade deals, no proper government, no plan, no power, no hope.

You reek of nervousness and desperation and you know it.

Bring on Brexit day!

downcow

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Could you answer this question please?

I understood the question was. Give me examples of how the Eu is a shambles (even through I withdrew the use of that word as unhelpful of me)
You have kept saying. Answer the question. So if you want to tell me clearly what the question is then I will answer it honestly and directly.
....and you watch how I do it and I’d like you then to do the same with one of my questions.

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

Folks this is where I knew examples we would take us.
Dammed if I do. Dammed if I don’t.

Just because you provide an "example" of some sort doesn't mean it automatically backs up your claims, certainly not in the case of your claiming the EU is a shambles. The copyright directive literally just happened, it has no bearing on what you've been posting until now.

I'll throw you an easy one, give is an example that changed you from being a remainer to a fanatical Brexiteer?

Popeleo

[quote:="liamtech"]Well simply, you would do so via Dublin if you wished to legally enter the Republic of Ireland, and illegally enter the UK via northern ireland[/quote]

reslfj wrote: »

No I would be legally in all of the CTA - like i enter in London and take the train e.g to Scotland.

The continuation plus a bit of streamlining of the CTA is one of the points there is full agreement about - between the UK, The RoI and the EU.

What streamlining are you referring to? As far as I am aware, the CTA at present is unlike either case described above. The CTA exists only for Irish and UK passport holders and, for the past while, our EU member citizens.

Eg. At present, if a non-EU passport holder lives legally in the Rep. of Ireland, they still need a UK visa to visit anywhere in the UK, including NI, and would be crossing illegally without one. Hard to implement at the invisible present Irish border, but easier to police those using planes and ferries to Britain.

I gave a colleague a lift up to the UK visa processing centre in Santry in Dublin recently. It was extremely busy - people queueing up the stairs. And as I Iearned from my colleague, an expensive and very time-consuming process for a weekend in London.

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

(even through I withdrew the use of that word as unhelpful of me)

Jesus, you used it just a few minutes ago, not for the first time.

Professor Moriarty

downcow wrote: »

I understood the question was. Give me examples of how the Eu is a shambles (even through I withdrew the use of that word as unhelpful of me)
You have kept saying. Answer the question. So if you want to tell me clearly what the question is then I will answer it honestly and directly.
....and you watch how I do it and I’d like you then to do the same with one of my questions.

Sorry if I confused you. You said you knew what point was being made in this post and I asked you to tell me what the point was because I couldn't see the point:

It's simply ridiculous the amount of time being sent on it. NI will be part of the UK when Brexit occurs. The money to keep NI running will be handed over, as usual. Neither Unionists or Nationalists have any interest in damaging the relationship that exists between NI and the RoI. All of the nonsense in coming from the EU and the RoI. Leo, Coveney & Co. deserve a good slap for being such smug pricks and they'll get it.

As for the border, the good republicans will continue to behave like thugs and scumbags. The physical border just gives them an extra problem. They were smuggling drugs, fuel, using safe houses on both sides of the border to managing the prostitution scams .... before the GFA. The GFA didn't stop them and Brexit won't either, as one lad from Tyrone told me.

Would be great if you could tell me the point being made.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Folks this is where I knew examples we would take us.
Dammed if I do. Dammed if I don’t.

You spectacularly demolished your own argument by presenting a directive that your two main parties were instrumental in creating and it is somebody else's fault for asking a question??? :D

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

I understood the question was. Give me examples of how the Eu is a shambles (even through I withdrew the use of that word as unhelpful of me)
You have kept saying. Answer the question. So if you want to tell me clearly what the question is then I will answer it honestly and directly.
....and you watch how I do it and I’d like you then to do the same with one of my questions.

Also if you could explain the reasons why that copyright directive needs to be 'taken control of' by the UK? thanks, and i mean that respectfully

Calina

downcow wrote: »

Folks this is where I knew examples we would take us.
Dammed if I do. Dammed if I don’t.

Worse still, I would like you to outline coherently your personal objections to that particular directive and how the UK - which supported it - would legislate differently. I suspect you probably don't know a whole pile about copyright, the issue with infringement online, and the issues around creative work.

Also, damned rather than dammed. I am still waiting to know how many languages you speak besides English such that you can claim the UK is more diverse than a group of 27 nations which between them have 25 official languages plus regional minority languages.

Folkstonian

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not willy nilly.

New EU entrants need to sign up to
https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis_en

So Schengen and the Euro. And signing up to ERM and Charter of Fundamental Rights and Area of freedom, security and justice. Things the UK have opt-outs for now.

Any one of those is a major RED LINE. So humble pie would have to be eaten if Brexit goes pear shaped and the EU goes "what did you think would happen ?"


Also potentially citizens barred from working in some EU countries for up to seven years like the A8 Countries if Brexit is worse than predicted.

Britain will never join Schengen, Britain will never join the euro. We’ve seen the absolute mess that both have caused for security and prosperity in the European mainland since implementation.

That’s why brexit is so monumentally huge now. That’s it for many, many generations. There’s no turning back. People won’t ever want to be consumed by the supranational juggernaut that shenghen, the Euro, and political commitment to ever closer union guarantee.

Your last line made me laugh, you know as well as I that whatever happens to Brexit, Britain is not being relegated to some sort of pre-industrial Eastern European economy like Romania or Bulgaria. Still, your digs are always more subtle than most others here, which I appreciate.

First Up

Folkstonian wrote:

That’s why brexit is so monumentally huge now. That’s it for many, many generations. There’s no turning back. People won’t ever want to be consumed by the supranational juggernaut that shenghen, the Euro, and political commitment to ever closer union guarantee.

Yes they would probably prefer another world war than have to put up with that

Hurrache

Folkstonian wrote: »

People won’t ever want to be consumed by the supranational juggernaut that shenghen, the Euro

You do know the UK have exemptions from the juggernaut that is the EU from both of these don't you? How awful of them.

The reliable immigration excuse being falled back to too I see.

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

Just because you provide an "example" of some sort doesn't mean it automatically backs up your claims, certainly not in the case of your claiming the EU is a shambles. The copyright directive literally just happened, it has no bearing on what you've been posting until now.

I'll throw you an easy one, give is an example that changed you from being a remainer to a fanatical Brexiteer?

Well now that’s an entirely different question. And your new question is formed in a fairly provocative manner. But I’ll assume your question means. What changed you from being a neutral with the very slightest leaning to remain to some who feels leaving is the best option for the UK.
Quite simply watching the behaviour of the Eu/roi over the past year and I have to admit becoming involved in this thread has also pushed me to leave even with no deal.
The words I would use is arrogance, intransigence, and displaying complete lack of ability to cooperate with a neighbour because their noses are out of joint because the neighbour does not want to share their bedroom anymore.

listermint

Folkstonian wrote: »

Britain will never join Schengen, Britain will never join the euro. We’ve seen the absolute mess that both have caused for security and prosperity in the European mainland since implementation.

That’s why brexit is so monumentally huge now. That’s it for many, many generations. There’s no turning back. People won’t ever want to be consumed by the supranational juggernaut that shenghen, the Euro, and political commitment to ever closer union guarantee.

Your last line made me laugh, you know as well as I that whatever happens to Brexit, Britain is not being relegated to some sort of pre-industrial Eastern European economy like Romania or Bulgaria. Still, your digs are always more subtle than most others here, which I appreciate.

Still claiming to be a remainer I see.

And with each post getting more giddy for April it appears.

As I said in 2017 just get them out.

Let them go, gone.

That will put the cat amongst the pigeons. And I still stand by my assertion that none of this impacts your life which is why you are so Blaise about it.

Privileged

Professor Moriarty

Folkstonian wrote: »

Britain will never join Schengen, Britain will never join the euro. We’ve seen the absolute mess that both have caused for security and prosperity in the European mainland since implementation.

That’s why brexit is so monumentally huge now. That’s it for many, many generations. There’s no turning back. People won’t ever want to be consumed by the supranational juggernaut that shenghen, the Euro, and political commitment to ever closer union guarantee.

Your last line made me laugh, you know as well as I that whatever happens to Brexit, Britain is not being relegated to some sort of pre-industrial Eastern European economy like Romania or Bulgaria. Still, your digs are always more subtle than most others here, which I appreciate.

Which makes it very clear that Britain will never rejoin the EU. It's possible that the EU will collapse in the future- which would suit nobody bar Russia and the US. Assuming it doesn't collapse, further integration is probable. So Britain, for good or for ill, will be out on its own after Brexit.

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

Jesus, you used it just a few minutes ago, not for the first time.

I don’t think I did but if you can demonstrate that I did you will get a wholehearted apology and a pat on the back for spotting it.

Strazdas

joe40 wrote: »

During the referendum campaign voters were told by farage and co that leaving the EU would be no problem. Trade deals would be easily sorted, cta would take care of Irish border etc.
Now regardless of your opinion on this what is abundantly clear is leaving the EU is not simple.
How are they getting away with this. Votes dumb enough to believe that non sense are now dumb enough to believe it ia all the EU fault. They're also the type of people dumb enough to believe Farage and co when they say a "no deal" would be no problem.
How can a group of people that got it demonstrably so wrong during the campaign still have credibility with a section of the UK population.

It's a very good question.

We now have loons like Brendan O'Neill telling the British public they in fact voted for No Deal ie. a catastrophic crashing out of the union with nothing in place - despite the fact this was never mentioned once during the referendum campaign.

Calina

Folkstonian wrote: »

Britain will never join Schengen, Britain will never join the euro. We’ve seen the absolute mess that both have caused for security and prosperity in the European mainland since implementation.

That’s why brexit is so monumentally huge now. That’s it for many, many generations. There’s no turning back. People won’t ever want to be consumed by the supranational juggernaut that shenghen, the Euro, and political commitment to ever closer union guarantee.

Your last line made me laugh, you know as well as I that whatever happens to Brexit, Britain is not being relegated to some sort of pre-industrial Eastern European economy like Romania or Bulgaria. Still, your digs are always more subtle than most others here, which I appreciate.

Britain said that before. Britain stayed on the outside before.

Britain changed its mind before.

Just for the record, I like the euro. I especially like Schengen. Both of these have made my life immeasurably easier.

UK Border Control in both Heathrow and Stansted is a singularly awful experience. So is Dublin for that matter. Feel free to sell your obstinacy as a feature not a bug but the world changes, ebbs and flows. If you want to stay on the outside looking in, well there is already evidence that your insularity costs you. You gave the world a language that keeps the world open to you. And you are turning your back.

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

Well now that’s an entirely different question.

Simple question really, what EU shambles made you go from a remainer to a fanatical leaver?

I really thought it would be easier to answer for you yet you still haven't done so.

jochenstacker

downcow wrote: »

Folks this is where I knew examples we would take us.
Dammed if I do. Dammed if I don’t.

liamtech wrote: »

With respect, and i am being respectful - i would love to know why that particular law needs to be 'taken control' of

Something, something bananas, something, something prawn flavoured crisps.
That's usually the best they can come up with.
Hence the wishy-washy answer.
If downcow lists an actual example, I will eat my car.

Popeleo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Is it possible the EU does not want a deal and would rather make an example? UK hurt far more with no deal.

I think they want a deal. However, I don't think they want to change a single word of the current deal, as giving into the ERG tactics will not only define the future relationship between the EU and the UK, but also weaken the EU's negotiating position in any future trade talks with foreign governments.

It would only back up all the "The EU always give in at the 11th hour" -type guff from the brexiteers. The current deal is the compromise. Giving more after all the shenanigans from the UK side will make the EU look weak.

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think I did but if you can demonstrate that I did you will get a wholehearted apology and a pat on the back for spotting it.

You did, and you know you did, I don't have the memory of a goldfish.

You're fond of the condescension when it suits you. But when you're unable to answer a question you like to hide behind the fear of a banning don't you? Odd that.

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

Simple question really, what EU shambles made you go from a remainer to a fanatical leaver?

I really thought it would be easier to answer for you yet you still haven't done so.

I don’t know why you are finding my last answer so difficult to understand.
I was prepared to put up with the extravagance etc of the Eu. Hence mildly remain. But the disgusting behaviour of them over the last year has been the straw that broke the camels back and I now want out.
So I am tempted to put it in capitals for you if that helps. The shambles didn’t drive me out it was the arrogance, intransigence etc during the past year.
Does that help you?
If you would be economically better off out of the Eu, would you vote out?