Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

An Claidheamh

Berserker wrote: »

NI is part of the UK and it is going to leave the EU on the same terms as the rest of the UK. Suggesting anything else is pointless.



The RoI is going to get crucified post Brexit. Savy business people have been saying this since day one


The days of buying overpriced goods from the RoI in the UK are coming to an end.

The NI backstop the UK agreed to would suggest otherwise. Unless they want the whole UK to stay in the EU ie no Brexit.


"savy business people"....... What "savy" business people would they be Beserker?
The business confederation of NI or UK, Bank of England
Your friend from Tyrone? The treasurer from the local orange Hall? Fertiliser sellers?

Overpriced goods from Ireland in the UK?????

The cost of actual food is going to rise in Britain if they leave without a deal you clown.
Irish farmers will make a killing and good luck to them.
Britain can't even feed themselves!
Did you really not know this?

The North will have to beg Ireland if it wants electricity and running water ffs.

Crucified? Well there won't be a no deal brexit due to the above.

You're deluded if you think the Irish government, the UK and the EU are going to consider the feelings of silly Irish unionists over everything else.

Hard luck a chara

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

I don’t know why you are finding my last answer so difficult to understand.
I was prepared to put up with the extravagance etc of the Eu. Hence mildly remain. But the disgusting behaviour of them over the last year has been the straw that broke the camels back and I now want out.
So I am tempted to put it in capitals for you if that helps. The shambles didn’t drive me out it was the arrogance, intransigence etc during the past year.
Does that help you?
If you would be economically better off out of the Eu, would you vote out?

You still can't answer a very simple question can you? You throw up a wall of text, you dont answer questions.

Your last line though, hilarious.

An Ciarraioch

Interestingly, in France, the Gilets Jaunes bubble has rather deflated, and Le Pen's RN are on 19%, which would actually be worse for her than in 2014:

http://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1099265694250778624

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think I did but if you can demonstrate that I did you will get a wholehearted apology and a pat on the back for spotting it.

HI Downcow

I am genuinely not being disrespectful. i am also genuinely not a republican. and i am not being personal

But i also genuinely have two Questions:

Firstly, 'Berserker' posted a point, which i found distasteful and which i also felt wasnt actually a point at all. You claimed he had made a point - please explain this

Secondly, What is it about the 'Copyright Directive' (which was supported by both largest political parties in the UK), that you are keen to take control of?

I am being honest, genuine, and literal, in asking these questions - thanks

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

You did, and you know you did, I don't have the memory of a goldfish.

You're fond of the condescension when it suits you. But when you're unable to answer a question you like to hide behind the fear of a banning don't you? Odd that.

Now I have been very careful not to raise that issue. And yet several posters today have tried to goad me with it. I am working very hard to be civil and obey forum rules, my friend

lawred2

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Some people act as if its only the UKs mess though and only they will be affected.
Think of them an unsociable neighbour, doesn't put the bins put, plays music at all hours, etc Who is affected?

Another argument based on a false premise

No one is doing that

No one

jochenstacker

downcow wrote: »

I don’t know why you are finding my last answer so difficult to understand.
I was prepared to put up with the extravagance etc of the Eu. Hence mildly remain. But the disgusting behaviour of them over the last year has been the straw that broke the camels back and I now want out.
So I am tempted to put it in capitals for you if that helps. The shambles didn’t drive me out it was the arrogance, intransigence etc during the past year.
Does that help you?
If you would be economically better off out of the Eu, would you vote out?

It doesn't help.
You've listed no examples and just sulk when asked, whilst giving wishy-washy answers.
What disgusting behaviour?
Answers and links please, otherwise you're just badmouthing without any basis in fact.

RobMc59

Hurrache wrote: »

Some still struggling with the fact that once you leave a club you lose the benefits of that club, but instead naively think it's a game of hardball.

I don't want to leave the club but if it happens the UK will have to look after its own interests.

Calina

downcow wrote: »

I don’t know why you are finding my last answer so difficult to understand.
I was prepared to put up with the extravagance etc of the Eu. Hence mildly remain. But the disgusting behaviour of them over the last year has been the straw that broke the camels back and I now want out.
So I am tempted to put it in capitals for you if that helps. The shambles didn’t drive me out it was the arrogance, intransigence etc during the past year.
Does that help you?
If you would be economically better off out of the Eu, would you vote out?

Seriously, the most intransigence I see is from the Democratic Unionist Party.

I am fascinated by your desperate need to counterfactualise things. If the GFA had a hard border. If Ireland woild be better off out of the EU.

Can you not deal with reality and things as they are at all?

Folkstonian

Calina wrote: »

Britain said that before. Britain stayed on the outside before.

Britain changed its mind before.

Just for the record, I like the euro. I especially like Schengen. Both of these have made my life immeasurably easier.

UK Border Control in both Heathrow and Stansted is a singularly awful experience. So is Dublin for that matter. Feel free to sell your obstinacy as a feature not a bug but the world changes, ebbs and flows. If you want to stay on the outside looking in, well there is already evidence that your insularity costs you. You gave the world a language that keeps the world open to you. And you are turning your back.

You will need a more compelling argument than doing away with queues at Heathrow to bring me on board with the concept of the Schengen Zone.

The free flow of drugs, weapons, fugitives and terror suspects is a greater concern for me, even as someone who flies in and out of Dublin and London frequently.

It would also require huge social changes overnight in Britain and Ireland as well. If all checks are being abolished, police officers would have to be routinely armed - in line with every other police force in the entire continent, and ID cards for all residents being made mandatory too. Those are two things just off the top of my head I see going down like a tonne of bricks with joe public

Strazdas

lawred2 wrote: »

Another argument based on a false premise

No one is doing that

No one

Well the hard Brexiteers / right wing press are admitting that Brexit will seriously impact on their neighbours, but are doing so from a position of glee and even using it as something to threaten their neighbours with (their hatred of the EU knows no bounds).

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

Folks this is where I knew examples we would take us.
Dammed if I do. Dammed if I don’t.

Well don't present examples that don't help your case or betray your deep lack of understanding as to how the EU functions.

But then Brexit is predicated on that widespread deep lack of understanding so I suppose it shouldn't come as a surprise that you did that.

jochenstacker

downcow wrote: »

Now I have been very careful not to raise that issue. And yet several posters today have tried to goad me with it. I am working very hard to be civil and obey forum rules, my friend

You're being very obtuse and nebulous in your points.
You obviously have some kind of issue, buy you're not willing to clearly spell it out and back it up with examples.

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

You still can't answer a very simple question can you? You throw up a wall of text, you dont answer questions.

Your last line though, hilarious.

I have answered you question from every conceivable angle. I think it is the answer that you don’t like.

Now having scolded me for pages for not answering questions, you answer my question by saying you don’t like the question. You couldn’t make it up.
Is there anybody on here could answer it for hurrache
I your community would be economically better off outside the Eu would you vote out, given the chance?

Professor Moriarty

downcow wrote: »

I have answered you question from every conceivable angle. I think it is the answer that you don’t like.

Now having scolded me for pages for not answering questions, you answer my question by saying you don’t like the question. You couldn’t make it up.
Is there anybody on here could answer it for hurrache
I your community would be economically better off outside the Eu would you vote out, given the chance?

Could you answer this question please?

You said you knew what point was being made in this post and I asked you to tell me what the point was because I couldn't see the point:

It's simply ridiculous the amount of time being sent on it. NI will be part of the UK when Brexit occurs. The money to keep NI running will be handed over, as usual. Neither Unionists or Nationalists have any interest in damaging the relationship that exists between NI and the RoI. All of the nonsense in coming from the EU and the RoI. Leo, Coveney & Co. deserve a good slap for being such smug pricks and they'll get it.

As for the border, the good republicans will continue to behave like thugs and scumbags. The physical border just gives them an extra problem. They were smuggling drugs, fuel, using safe houses on both sides of the border to managing the prostitution scams .... before the GFA. The GFA didn't stop them and Brexit won't either, as one lad from Tyrone told me.

Would be great if you could tell me the point being made?

Enzokk

downcow wrote: »

Yeah exactly same spirit that says unionists should not have additional checks before entering the rest of the UK.
I know it’s a very difficult circle to square but we have no hope until we recognise eaches sensitivities

Enzokk wrote: »

What checks do you mean, between NI and the UK?

You may have missed this, what did you mean by additional checks?

lawred2

Folkstonian wrote: »

Britain will never join Schengen, Britain will never join the euro. We’ve seen the absolute mess that both have caused for security and prosperity in the European mainland since implementation.

That’s why brexit is so monumentally huge now. That’s it for many, many generations. There’s no turning back. People won’t ever want to be consumed by the supranational juggernaut that shenghen, the Euro, and political commitment to ever closer union guarantee.

Your last line made me laugh, you know as well as I that whatever happens to Brexit, Britain is not being relegated to some sort of pre-industrial Eastern European economy like Romania or Bulgaria. Still, your digs are always more subtle than most others here, which I appreciate.

It's almost as if your account has been taken over by a Brexit cliche generating bot..

Calina

Folkstonian wrote: »

You will need a more compelling argument than doing away with queues at Heathrow to bring me on board with the concept of the Schengen Zone.

The free flow of drugs, weapons, fugitives and terror suspects is a greater concern for me, even as someone who flies in and out of Dublin and London frequently.

It would also require huge social changes overnight as well in Britain and Ireland as well. If all checks are being abolished, police officers would have to be routinely armed - in line with every other police force in the entire continent, and ID cards for all residents being made mandatory too. Those are two things just off the top of my head I see going down like a tonne of bricks with joe public

I don't think you are right actually but grand. I carry id around with me every day for the practical reason of it being possible to identify me if necessary. I did this all the time I lived in Dublin. I suspect the arming of police is pure scaremongering on your part because Schengen or no Schengen people from the EU have the right to come and go. Most terrorism in the UK is generally home grown.

And tbf, Schengen does not limit the availability of drugs in Ireland. Oh and btw, use of illicit drugs in Luxembourg has dropped by a third since 2000 and it is in Schengen with borders to three countries and a huge amount of transiting trucks.

On weaponry front, this not an issue for Schengen either but basic airport security. Which, strangely still exists in the Schengen zone.

In other words, things are not quite as simplistic as you would present them.

downcow

liamtech wrote: »

HI Downcow

I am genuinely not being disrespectful. i am also genuinely not a republican. and i am not being personal

But i also genuinely have two Questions:

Firstly, 'Berserker' posted a point, which i found distasteful and which i also felt wasnt actually a point at all. You claimed he had made a point - please explain this

Secondly, What is it about the 'Copyright Directive' (which was supported by both largest political parties in the UK), that you are keen to take control of?

I am being honest, genuine, and literal, in asking these questions - thanks

Thanks for your respect Liamtech
Second question first. I think I was asked to evidence some Eu laws that UK had to abide by that were a nonsense I just googled the most recent one I could find, speed read it and posted it. Partly as my head was done in with the continual unreasonable demands for evidence on here from leavers but many remainers skirt over ridiculous statements.
So it probably wasn’t the best example and was given in haste.
Now you first question. I will need to go back and read it but I will respond today

Calina

downcow wrote: »

Thanks for your respect Liamtech
Second question first. I think I was asked to evidence some Eu laws that UK had to abide by that were a nonsense I just googled the most recent one I could find, speed read it and posted it. Partly as my head was done in with the continual unreasonable demands for evidence on here from leavers but many remainers skirt over ridiculous statements.
So it probably wasn’t the best example and was given in haste.
Now you first question. I will need to go back and read it but I will respond today

So, you had to search one because nothing sprang to mind? Despite it being a problem for you?

Also: remain used to be status quo so the onus is on those promoting change to provide evidence of the benefits of that change and the need for that change. Hence the requests for supporting evidence or rationale.

Kermit.de.frog

Former UK amb to EU on Irish position and other member countries.

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1098898057423409152

First Up

downcow wrote:

Now having scolded me for pages for not answering questions, you answer my question by saying you don’t like the question. You couldn’t make it up. Is there anybody on here could answer it for hurrache I your community would be economically better off outside the Eu would you vote out, given the chance?

downcow wrote:

Thanks for your respect Liamtech Second question first. I think I was asked to evidence some Eu laws that UK had to abide by that were a nonsense I just googled the most recent one I could find, speed read it and posted it. Partly as my head was done in with the continual unreasonable demands for evidence on here from leavers but many remainers skirt over ridiculous statements. So it probably wasn’t the best example and was given in haste. Now you first question. I will need to go back and read it but I will respond today

Has it occured to you that having to use Google to find something you dislike could bring its importance for you into question?

downcow

jochenstacker wrote: »

It doesn't help.
You've listed no examples and just sulk when asked, whilst giving wishy-washy answers.
What disgusting behaviour?
Answers and links please, otherwise you're just badmouthing without any basis in fact.

If you are still reading liamtech, here is the type of thing that drive me to a quick answer. I am being continually asked to evidence or explain what I say. If I don’t do it immediately the I get a torrent of abuse. Yet if I ask for clarification eg what exactly do people mean when they refer to Mays red lines, I am told I am stupid, go and look it up yourself, he’s thick, etc (and I’d like to say more here but I can’t)
But to try and address johnstackers question. I have said many times and there is a list but two wick bits of disgusting behaviour by Eu currently is to refuse to negotiate and to reference the gfa as a bargaining chip.

Folkstonian

listermint wrote: »

Still claiming to be a remainer I see.

And with each post getting more giddy for April it appears.

As I said in 2017 just get them out.

Let them go, gone.

That will put the cat amongst the pigeons. And I still stand by my assertion that none of this impacts your life which is why you are so Blaise about it.

Privileged

Not entirely fair - I will be affected by whichever Brexit outcome we have next month as much as the next person. I do have the obligatory foreign granny (are you even a millennial without one?) but she didn’t have the foresight and good grace to be from the EU. So my ability to live and work in Europe will go. As for any ‘privilege’, I feel privileged only to have been taught the importance of hard work and resilience by my parents and haven’t ever, and won’t ever, look to them for financial assistance (unlike my two sisters, one of whom they financed through training to become a pilot). So I take a little bit of offence at that because I’m not anything like the person you’ve tried to portray me as a couple of times. I have empathy for anyone who will be affected, but I’m not sure what good right now it would do to pretend that things aren’t going to change. Better to look for positives and opportunities just over the horizon

Seth Brundle

Some food tariff examples shown in the Guardian here (I hadn't realised OJ and mushrooms were so high)...

https://twitter.com/janemerrick23/status/1099277673501786117?s=19

Silent Running

downcow wrote: »

I have answered you question from every conceivable angle. I think it is the answer that you don’t like.

Now having scolded me for pages for not answering questions, you answer my question by saying you don’t like the question. You couldn’t make it up.
Is there anybody on here could answer it for hurrache
I your community would be economically better off outside the Eu would you vote out, given the chance?

I can only answer for myself, so I'll give it a go. No guarantee that the answer will satisfy you though.

For me, it's not all about the money. I'm a fiercely proud Irishman and a fiercely proud European. I enjoy the connection to my European partners and I think it brings more value to my country than mere monetary gain. I might be better off outside of Europe at some stage, who knows, but it wouldn't be measured only in euros. As an Irishman, I've no wish to be the whipping boy of a neighbourhood bully. I'm happy to be an equal among 500 million equals.

I'm very sorry to see the mess that the UK has got itself into, and I feel that the European project will be lesser for the UK leaving. I think the UK should have joined in more as an equal and worked towards a solution to the perceived problems in the union.

The root of Brexit is in the fact that the UK never saw the union as a grouping of equals. The superiority complex would never allow this. So, to work towards solving the problems within the union, and there are a few, would require a complete change in the attitude of the British press and ruling classes. This will only come about when they realise that the glory days of empire are long gone. I probably won't see this change in my lifetime.

A Dub in Glasgo

Got a pro-brexit anti-Scottish independence leaflet through the door today from that loony Scotland in Union group. Looks like the campaign will soon be officially starting

it says 'Scottish independence would be at least 8 times as costly as the worse-case Brexit' and 'The SNP is using Brexit to try and break up the UK'

Professor Moriarty

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Got a pro-brexit anti-Scottish independence leaflet through the door today from that loony Scotland in Union group. Looks like the campaign will soon be officially starting

it says 'Scottish independence would be at least 8 times as costly as the worse-case Brexit' and 'The SNP is using Brexit to try and break up the UK'

I presume there were loads of facts an figures substantiating the claim? Expect a red bus to hove into view any day now.

Folkstonian

Calina wrote: »

I don't think you are right actually but grand. I carry id around with me every day for the practical reason of it being possible to identify me if necessary. I did this all the time I lived in Dublin. I suspect the arming of police is pure scaremongering on your part because Schengen or no Schengen people from the EU have the right to come and go. Most terrorism in the UK is generally home grown.

And tbf, Schengen does not limit the availability of drugs in Ireland. Oh and btw, use of illicit drugs in Luxembourg has dropped by a third since 2000 and it is in Schengen with borders to three countries and a huge amount of transiting trucks.

On weaponry front, this not an issue for Schengen either but basic airport security. Which, strangely still exists in the Schengen zone.

In other words, things are not quite as simplistic as you would present them.

I’m not talking about the possibility of weapons being taken in hand luggage, but the abolishment of all border controls between Britain and a continent up to its knees in illegal firearms. A continent on which terror suspects move freely from France, to Belgium, to Germany etc (as seen with the individuals involved in the Paris, Brussels, and Catalonia attacks) with limited slow time transfer of information on their activities.

There are lots of problems with it, for all the conveniences it also provides to tourists and businessmen. I’m sure there are always people working hard to make it better, safer and more effective but right now I’d be quite sceptical of its benefits outweighing the issues it throws up.

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

If you are still reading liamtech, here is the type of thing that drive me to a quick answer. I am being continually asked to evidence or explain what I say. If I don’t do it immediately the I get a torrent of abuse. Yet if I ask for clarification eg what exactly do people mean when they refer to Mays red lines, I am told I am stupid, go and look it up yourself, he’s thick, etc (and I’d like to say more here but I can’t)
But to try and address johnstackers question. I have said many times and there is a list but two wick bits of disgusting behaviour by Eu currently is to refuse to negotiate and to reference the gfa as a bargaining chip.

Ok i appreciate you replying. For the record i have not been disrespectful to anyone, and its not a good way to conduct a conversation, even if its a heated one.

but.. In answering the question on the 'copyright directive' you stated you had to google it. Which means this really isnt an issue for you, personally. Also as the UK overwhelmingly supported this directive, it seems highly likely its not a problem for anyone in the UK or NI. Also the fact the Torys and Labor supported it, means that in all likely hood a similar, if not identical law will be passed by the HOC on leaving the EU, if they havent done so already.

On the second point, in relation to Berserkers comments, perhaps you responded quickly and now maybe realize that it was not a point at all, as well as being distasteful, in the same way you feel people have been with you.

But on Evidence, i have to say that we are discussing this issue, which is volatile, and in trying to understand the views of Leavers/Brexiters, asking for evidence is the only way forward.

'I want to take back control'.. of what? please explain

'I dont want the EU laws'.. which ones?

And you have stated the EU has behaved 'disgustingly'.. so i honestly and respectfully ask.. aside from not giving in to every Brexiteer demand, how has the EU behaved disgustingly??

I will remain respectful and polite, and i will answer any questions anyone wants to through my way..

Thanks you.. over to you