Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

A Dub in Glasgo

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I presume there were loads of facts an figures substantiating the claim? Expect a red bus to hove into view any day now.

Nothing - It references a separate anti-independence group (Scottish Business UK) for that

Professor Moriarty

Folkstonian wrote: »

I’m not talking about the possibility of weapons being taken in hand luggage, but the abolishment of all border controls between Britain and a continent up to its knees in illegal firearms. A continent on which terror suspects move freely from France, to Belgium, to Germany etc (as seen with the individuals involved in the Paris, Brussels, and Catalonia attacks) with limited slow time transfer of information on their activities.

There are lots of problems with it, for all the conveniences it also provides to tourists and businessmen. I’m sure there are always people working hard to make it better, safer and more effective but right now I’d be quite sceptical of its benefits outweighing the issues it throws up.

How many of the recent terrorist atrocities in the UK have been as a result of Britain's links to the continent?

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I presume there were loads of facts an figures substantiating the claim? Expect a red bus to hove into view any day now.

If it's on a bus, it must be true.

Brexit was voted for by old people who grew up through a time where what was in the media was regarded as truth. My own mother paid indulgences as recently as 2000.

They never knew what hit them. A media full of scutter.

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

Partly as my head was done in with the continual unreasonable demands for evidence on here from leavers but many remainers skirt over ridiculous statements

Grow up. You make a claim, you back it up with evidence. If you find this unreasonable, threads discussing current affairs aren't the place for you.

Folkstonian

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Got a pro-brexit anti-Scottish independence leaflet through the door today from that loony Scotland in Union group. Looks like the campaign will soon be officially starting

it says 'Scottish independence would be at least 8 times as costly as the worse-case Brexit' and 'The SNP is using Brexit to try and break up the UK'

I’d be all for Scottish independence if it’s what Scottish people truly want, but you do still so 75% of your trade with other U.K. countries, so the disruption that independence and the implementation of borders and frictions will be colossal for a time. I do see similarities with Brexit. In both cases it’s about how much you want it.

Calina

Folkstonian wrote: »

I’m not talking about the possibility of weapons being taken in hand luggage, but the abolishment of all border controls between Britain and a continent up to its knees in illegal firearms. A continent on which terror suspects move freely from France, to Belgium, to Germany etc (as seen with the individuals involved in the Paris, Brussels, and Catalonia attacks) with limited slow time transfer of information on their activities.

There are lots of problems with it, for all the conveniences it also provides to tourists and businessmen. I’m sure there are always people working hard to make it better, safer and more effective but right now I’d be quite sceptical of its benefits outweighing the issues it throws up.

Ireland and the UK are still islands. How the hell do you expect these things to move around with impunity beyond what they already do?

Brexit means the UK will no longer have access to a whole pile of security information. Ireland will.

joe40

Folkstonian wrote: »

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not willy nilly.

New EU entrants need to sign up to
https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/chapters-of-the-acquis_en

So Schengen and the Euro. And signing up to ERM and Charter of Fundamental Rights and Area of freedom, security and justice. Things the UK have opt-outs for now.

Any one of those is a major RED LINE. So humble pie would have to be eaten if Brexit goes pear shaped and the EU goes "what did you think would happen ?"


Also potentially citizens barred from working in some EU countries for up to seven years like the A8 Countries if Brexit is worse than predicted.

Britain will never join Schengen, Britain will never join the euro. We’ve seen the absolute mess that both have caused for security and prosperity in the European mainland since implementation.

That’s why brexit is so monumentally huge now. That’s it for many, many generations. There’s no turning back. People won’t ever want to be consumed by the supranational juggernaut that shenghen, the Euro, and political commitment to ever closer union guarantee.

Your last line made me laugh, you know as well as I that whatever happens to Brexit, Britain is not being relegated to some sort of pre-industrial Eastern European economy like Romania or Bulgaria. Still, your digs are always more subtle than most others here, which I appreciate.

How exactly have schengen and the Euro been a mess economically and in terms of security for the EU.
The UK are in neither and have suffered their fair share of economic woes and security issues over the past number of years.
These statements are made by brexiteers as self evident and accepted as such by their supporters, but where is the evidence.
A lot of the terror attacks in Europe including the UK were homegrown.

Professor Moriarty

Hurrache wrote: »

Grow up. You make a claim, you back it up with evidence. If you find this unreasonable, threads discussing current affairs aren't the place for you.

I must say it is deeply disappointing and frustrating to have posters jump into a thread, accuse you of something you didn't do and then make a vague claim. It's even more frustrating when posters ignore three requests for clarification of their unsubstantiated claim. I suppose the best thing for me to do is ignore such posters.

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

Grow up. You make a claim, you back it up with evidence. If you find this unreasonable, threads discussing current affairs aren't the place for you.

Well if you continue not to answer my question then don’t expect me to dance to your tune.

First Up

Silent Running wrote:

This will only come about when they realise that the glory days of empire are long gone. I probably won't see this change in my lifetime.

I see it more as more a post WW2 issue.

In1952 Germany and France turned the page and initiated the European Coal and Steel Community, which was joined by several other countries that suffered horrors only seven years before.

The UK was invited to join but declined, primarily because the Minister concerned feared that miners in his Durham constituency wouldn't like it. (As good a contrast between seeing the big and small pictures as you will get.)

Five years after that the ECSC became the EEC and eventually the EU, with the UK still watching from the sideline.

The UK has never quite forgiven the rest of Europe for suceeding without them.

Folkstonian

joe40 wrote: »

How exactly have schengen and the Euro been a mess economically and in terms of security for the EU.
The UK are in neither and have suffered their fair share of economic woes and security issues over the past number of years.
These statements are made by brexiteers as self evident and accepted as such by their supporters, but where is the evidence.
A lot of the terror attacks in Europe including the UK were homegrown.

Well.. yes. Exactly.

We have our fair share of ‘problematic’ people as it is without completely abolishing border controls with the continent (that would allow the kind of movement of men and materials between countries which made the horrible string of attacks in 2015 possible) and potentially adding to the problem

I’m certainly not arguing that everything is perfect and rosy at home as it is

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

Well if you continue not to answer my question then don’t expect me to dance to your tune.

i replied in detail a few posts back and happy to continue talking about this -

FrancieBrady

Folkstonian wrote: »

Well.. yes. Exactly.

We have our fair share of ‘problematic’ people as it is without completely abolishing border controls with the continent that would allow the movement of men and materials between countries which made the horrible string of attacks in 2015 possible and potentially adding to the problem

I’m certainly not arguing that everything is perfect and rosy at home as it is

Schengen is not designed to abolish police work and intelligence. You are confusing temporary incompetence (which all country's seem to be guilty of) with law and rules.

Calina

Folkstonian wrote: »

Well.. yes. Exactly.

We have our fair share of ‘problematic’ people as it is without completely abolishing border controls with the continent (that would allow the kind of movement of men and materials between countries which made the horrible string of attacks in 2015 possible) and potentially adding to the problem

I’m certainly not arguing that everything is perfect and rosy at home as it is

The UK and Ireland are islands. The kind of movement in practical terms is significantly harder.

But actually your problem is clearly foreigners.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Brexiter's are spinning this whole impasse as if it is only EU bureaucrats trying to bully the UK. Brexit directly affects so many individual EU members along with its citizens in different specific ways.

Ireland - The border.
Spain - Gibraltar and independent movements in Catalonia and the Basque region.
Poland - Hundred's of thousands of its citizens are living and working in the UK.
Other Eastern European countries - The same.
Italy and France - Regional and protected food/drink industries.
Germany - EU success is a central tenet to them as a state.
Benelux countries - The same.

I'm sure there are other reasons and countries that are legitimate to the argument as well. With UK politics not able to move beyond infighting I don't see how any of this can be resolved in the short to medium term.

Professor Moriarty

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Brexiter's are spinning this whole impasse as if it is only EU bureaucrats trying to bully the UK. Brexit directly affects so many individual EU members along with its citizens in different specific ways.

Ireland - The border.
Spain - Gibraltar and independent movements in Catalonia and the Basque region.
Poland - Hundred's of thousands of its citizens are living and working in the UK.
Other Eastern European countries - The same.
Italy and France - Regional and protected food/drink industries.
Germany - EU success is a central tenet to them as a state.
Benelux countries - The same.

I'm sure there are other reasons and countries that are legitimate to the argument as well. With UK politics not able to move beyond infighting I don't see how any of this can be resolved in the short to medium term.

It's also a crucial existential matter for the EU as an institution. Britain simply cannot be allowed to be better off outside the EU than inside. Brexiteers choose to ignore this or they simply don't understand.

Silent Running

downcow wrote: »

I have no doubt if Ireland had voted to leave UK would be doing all in its power to facilitate a smooth exit for them. It feels roi are doing gre opposite

Just as a matter of interest. Let's just say that this was the case. Would the UK not have to erect a hard border to protect the EU market? How would this affect their commitment to the GFA?

Ireland doesn't want to be a thorn in the side of the UK. We are left with little choice but to protect peace and the EU frontier. The UK have put us in a horrible position!

Borderhopper

I have to say, this thread has gone seriously downhill in the past 2-3 months. Unsubstantiated claims are made without evidence to support them, insults and counter-insults are thrown about with abandon, and there are several posters with similar posting styles supporting each other. I was advised to ignore posters, but I don't want to avoid differing viewpoints. However, the derailing for pages at a time is depressing,to be honest.

Personally, I feel it's too late to avoid a no deal Brexit. I think before Christmas was the last chance to have some kind of workable deal in place. We're in a perfect storm and the best we can do is try and prepare and ride it out. I say this with absolutely no schadenfreude. Political thrillers are not enjoyable when you're in the middle of them. I'm lucky in that I am qualified in an in demand sector, I'm a EU citizen and able to be registered multi nationally in my profession.

Is there another Brexit thread concerned solely with the political and economic impact of no deal? I'm not interested in rows or pages of insults. Peregrinus is/was great poster, knowledgeable and respectful, but I note he/she is posting less. I sympathise with the mods, but I wouldn't be surprised if they abandoned this.

Silent Running

downcow wrote: »

But you won’t talk about options to the backstop. So no you are not trying

I don't know how you continue to get away with this kind of post.

Ireland is happy to go along with the agreement hammered out between the EU negotiators and the UK counterparts. The deal is on the table, there are no further negotiations. You have been told this a number of times. Why do you insist there should be more talks?

Strazdas

downcow wrote: »

I have no doubt if Ireland had voted to leave UK would be doing all in its power to facilitate a smooth exit for them. It feels roi are doing gre opposite

Are you sure? Ireland going for a hard Brexit would throw up all sorts of problems, just in reverse to the way it is happening now. Clearly as a nation of only 5m, the impact would be far less severe on the UK and EU but the general opinion would be that Ireland was acting the eejit.

Why would anyone in the UK or the EU be in favour of it? There would be no tangible benefits to Ireland withdrawing.

downcow

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The negotiations were held.
What was it they the UK negotiating team agreed that you think doesn't work and why do you think so?

Any agreement that I have seen being agreed it has needed negotiations up to and even slightly after the deadline eg Gfa. Just saying there is only one solution and we won’t even talk about any other possibilities is nonsensical.
I accept there may be no other solution to wa. But get in a room and burn the midnight oil up to the last second for the sake of every individual in Europe.

tuxy

downcow wrote: »

I accept Ireland are in a difficult position but with hindsight if Eu hadn’t set out to make an example of UK and if Ireland hadn’t set out to try and force UK to abandon brexit. But rather if we had all worked together for the best exit for everyone we would definitely be in a much better place today.

The UK decided that it was best if the PM was their chief negotiator. The EU spent two years in talks with the PM and it was the EU that made concessions so the PM could have her red lines on trade and emigration. What more could the EU have done to keep May happy?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Have the balls to get in and negotiate something that works for everyone. If nothing can be found at least Eu can say it tried. This is too important for people’s pride to get in the way of.

We have been negotiating for two years, both sides compromised and their was always a clearly laid out limit to the compromise that the EU would make (they have been spelling this out for quite some time).

There is no precedent for this, somebody was always going to have to compromise more and it looks clearly to me that it has to be the UK...if they want a deal.
If they don't, they are free to leave and we will all(the rest of the EU) take whatever measures to cope and move on.
You will still need a deal of some description though, so you cannot 'move on'. It really is all your problem and your move.

Calina

downcow wrote: »

English. And some would say not very well. This feels like a speed-dating question. I’m sure you have some reason for asking?

Yes, as outlined in a previous post.

Effectively, you are monolingual and your entire world view comes through the prism of English and English language media. However, EN media is profoyndly myopic, and particularly insular. Its coverage of countries where English is not the native language is particularly poor.

This means you have a profoundly shallow view of life outside the English bubble. This explains your comment about enjoying diversity in the auK and forgetting/not recognising that the EU is significantly more diverse and retains that diversity even as it moves more closely together economically. You are not equipped to rectify this gap.

It is not a speed dating question but the fact that that you might see the relevance to it particularly in the context of this thread is revealing in itself. I do not think we would do well together.

But it is highly relevant. Language learning has been falling off a cliff in the UK. Cannot remember the figures for NI although they were skewed a bit by Irish iirc. The number ofuniversity courses has dropped massively and at school level, the most popular foreign language is Spanish iirc. This means the pool of candidates who can engage effectively with foreigners is disproportionately small, which for international negotiation is fraught with difficulty. I assume negotiations took place either in English or with the use of the European Commission's interpreting service.

But it leaves you unable to be clear on what views in Europe are. It leaves you at the mercy of UK media, who for example, caused many to believe Marine LePen had a credible chance of beating Emmanuel Macron. Anyone who understood enough to read French media would have known this is nonsense.

Your view of Brexit and Britain's position in the world is warped by the bias which you are ill equipped to see. Tbf, some Irish journalists have done a really good job from Brussels. And if Brexit were not happening the insularity would not be so tragic.

But we have Brexit and the view which Britons get of it is quite controllable quite simple because like you, large numbers of Britons are not equipped to look too far outside their own bubble.

Strazdas

downcow wrote: »

I accept Ireland are in a difficult position but with hindsight if Eu hadn’t set out to make an example of UK and if Ireland hadn’t set out to try and force UK to abandon brexit. But rather if we had all worked together for the best exit for everyone we would definitely be in a much better place today.

I understand that you believe this but it's little more than opinion and one being peddled solely by the UK hard right and their buddies in the press.

Virtually nobody in Europe believes it : you occasionally hear fringe crank MEP from a little known party saying something along these lines and then the Daily Express turns it into a big story.

Silent Running

downcow wrote: »

I accept Ireland are in a difficult position but with hindsight if Eu hadn’t set out to make an example of UK and if Ireland hadn’t set out to try and force UK to abandon brexit. But rather if we had all worked together for the best exit for everyone we would definitely be in a much better place today.

The only bit of this post that is true is that Ireland have been put in a difficult position by the UK. The rest is pure Brexiteer rubbish.

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

But you won’t talk about options to the backstop. So no you are not trying

We.. You.. Us.. them..

When you say, 'you are not trying', in this case. Lets examine it. the UK has to negotiate with the EU.. 'we' are the EU..

The GFA negotiations were conducted between the UK and ROI when we were both in the EU..

Now 'You', the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.. Are leaving. The people 'You' need to talk with are the EU.. 'We', ROI, are in the EU.. You have spoken to us for 2 years.. Teresa May, Your PM, accepted the Backstop.. We accepted the backstop, the EU i mean.. Every parliament in the EU accepted the backstop.. except the HOC in London..

Therefore, and im sorry, 'We' dont have a problem.. 'You' do..

The backstop is to guarantee that the GFA remains intact when 'You' leave..

In all honesty, i dont know what other way to put it..

ROI is the EU.. We are absolutely fine with it, being in the largest trading block in the world is fantastic for us.. We wont be dragged into a UKGB&NI issue.. which is what this is

Welcome further chat and i remain respectful

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

Any agreement that I have seen being agreed it has needed negotiations up to and even slightly after the deadline eg Gfa. Just saying there is only one solution and we won’t even talk about any other possibilities is nonsensical.
I accept there may be no other solution to wa. But get in a room and burn the midnight oil up to the last second for the sake of every individual in Europe.

But every individual in the EU will not benifit from sitting down yet again, blowing more EU money to talk about the WA....just to let the UK people feel better. The people of the UK sent their PM and a select goup to negotiate over a 2 year period with the EU. The agreement was signed for the good of the people of the EU and UK.....just because the people of the UK dont know what they want doesnt mean the EU have to sit down again.



Again I will put the question to you...


What does the UK supply or provide to the rest of the EU that the EU cannot supply/provide itself with???



The people of the UK have to realise....the EU can walk away with a no deal, it will hurt to a certain level, but the UK will suffer even more.

Podge_irl

downcow wrote: »

Any agreement that I have seen being agreed it has needed negotiations up to and even slightly after the deadline eg Gfa. Just saying there is only one solution and we won’t even talk about any other possibilities is nonsensical.
I accept there may be no other solution to wa. But get in a room and burn the midnight oil up to the last second for the sake of every individual in Europe.

Genuinely - why bother? The UK has shown absolutely zero indication that it has the slightest idea of what it actually wants. I am sure if some concrete proposal came back the EU would look at it but all they are getting is a vague request to re-negotiate something that took 2 years to get to the point where it was signed off by everyone and has now been reneged on by one side.

Calina

downcow wrote: »

I accept Ireland are in a difficult position but with hindsight if Eu hadn’t set out to make an example of UK and if Ireland hadn’t set out to try and force UK to abandon brexit. But rather if we had all worked together for the best exit for everyone we would definitely be in a much better place today.

The EU did not set out to make an example of the UK. It set out to ensure everything was done by the rule of law. The issue is that by leaving, the UK faces consequences. The UK has been unable to admit this. Hence We Can Have Our Cake and eat it. This was never possible but screaming that it should be and the UK can take what it wants creates a narrative of victimhood.

But ultimately it boils down to this: if you want the benefits of EU membership, leaving the EU is an ineffective way to go about getting them.