Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

woohoo!!!

Leading Brexiteers know full well that they cannot deliver on their promises. So rather than supporting a deal with the EU, they have continued the line that the EU is the source of our problems, so no to CU & SM.

The problem with this stance is that it also removes the EU goodies, access to single market. No other nation or trading bloc on earth gets access to that lucrative market without the EU agreeing. Brexiteers are being dishonest in obscuring this basic fact. And every single EU member will jealously guard this. The compromised worked out is the farthest the EU have budged, indeed they're not thrilled with it. And they will not renogiate.

The HoC rejected it but won't or cannot spell out non unicorn alternatives. If it wasn't the backstop, another objection would be found.

So those same Brexiteers have latched onto a no deal as it is the only way to dodge the fact that they cannot deliver the easy goodies promised. They harp on about that the EU is trying to force them to stay. All this bluff and mirrors show them up for the utter charlatans that they are. They are fully prepared to inflict damage on the UK, whilst of course blaming everyone else. But I think their cheer leading for a no deal will bring into focus for the British public when crash out implications are staring them in the face daily.

Significantly, all this has damaged their international reputation at a time they're looking for trade deals.

Talk about buying a pig in a poke.

RobMc59

Calina wrote: »

Yes, as outlined in a previous post.

Effectively, you are monolingual and your entire world view comes through the prism of English and English language media. However, EN media is profoyndly myopic, and particularly insular. Its coverage of countries where English is not the native language is particularly poor.

This means you have a profoundly shallow view of life outside the English bubble. This explains your comment about enjoying diversity in the auK and forgetting/not recognising that the EU is significantly more diverse and retains that diversity even as it moves more closely together economically. You are not equipped to rectify this gap.

It is not a speed dating question but the fact that that you might see the relevance to it particularly in the context of this thread is revealing in itself. I do not think we would do well together.

But it is highly relevant. Language learning has been falling off a cliff in the UK. Cannot remember the figures for NI although they were skewed a bit by Irish iirc. The number ofuniversity courses has dropped massively and at school level, the most popular foreign language is Spanish iirc. This means the pool of candidates who can engage effectively with foreigners is disproportionately small, which for international negotiation is fraught with difficulty. I assume negotiations took place either in English or with the use of the European Commission's interpreting service.

But it leaves you unable to be clear on what views in Europe are. It leaves you at the mercy of UK media, who for example, caused many to believe Marine LePen had a credible chance of beating Emmanuel Macron. Anyone who understood enough to read French media would have known this is nonsense.

Your view of Brexit and Britain's position in the world is warped by the bias which you are ill equipped to see. Tbf, some Irish journalists have done a really good job from Brussels. And if Brexit were not happening the insularity would not be so tragic.

But we have Brexit and the view which Britons get of it is quite controllable quite simple because like you, large numbers of Britons are not equipped to look too far outside their own bubble.

If you only speak one language doesn't mean you are somehow inferior or misinformed-your posts are usually balanced and reasonably fair but I think that is quite a condescending attitude.

downcow

Calina wrote: »

Yes, as outlined in a previous post.

Effectively, you are monolingual and your entire world view comes through the prism of English and English language media. However, EN media is profoyndly myopic, and particularly insular. Its coverage of countries where English is not the native language is particularly poor.

This means you have a profoundly shallow view of life outside the English bubble. This explains your comment about enjoying diversity in the auK and forgetting/not recognising that the EU is significantly more diverse and retains that diversity even as it moves more closely together economically. You are not equipped to rectify this gap.

It is not a speed dating question but the fact that that you might see the relevance to it particularly in the context of this thread is revealing in itself. I do not think we would do well together.

But it is highly relevant. Language learning has been falling off a cliff in the UK. Cannot remember the figures for NI although they were skewed a bit by Irish iirc. The number ofuniversity courses has dropped massively and at school level, the most popular foreign language is Spanish iirc. This means the pool of candidates who can engage effectively with foreigners is disproportionately small, which for international negotiation is fraught with difficulty. I assume negotiations took place either in English or with the use of the European Commission's interpreting service.

But it leaves you unable to be clear on what views in Europe are. It leaves you at the mercy of UK media, who for example, caused many to believe Marine LePen had a credible chance of beating Emmanuel Macron. Anyone who understood enough to read French media would have known this is nonsense.

Your view of Brexit and Britain's position in the world is warped by the bias which you are ill equipped to see. Tbf, some Irish journalists have done a really good job from Brussels. And if Brexit were not happening the insularity would not be so tragic.

But we have Brexit and the view which Britons get of it is quite controllable quite simple because like you, large numbers of Britons are not equipped to look too far outside their own bubble.

Calina. You might be surprised how well we would do together.
Anyway I am not going to get into a spat about who has most access to diversity but your analysis is both a tad patronising and indeed narrow minded in the possible routes (or rather route) you identify to experiencing diversity.
I work in a small team approx 30 people in that we have every continent represented and certainly over a 5 year period practically every nation in Europe. This has lead me to have friends in possible 60 countries (I must do the sums tonight).
So I guess I’m saying don’t assume because you speak a few languages you engage with more diversity than me. I am assuming that you speak several languages which is why I suggest you are being a little patronising. But I still reckon you are probably a very interesting person unlike your view of boring bigoted me :-)

Calina

downcow wrote: »

Calina. You might be surprised how well we would do together.
Anyway I am not going to get into a spat about who has most access to diversity but your analysis is both a tad patronising and indeed narrow minded in the possible routes (or rather route) you identify to experiencing diversity.
I work in a small team approx 30 people in that we have every continent represented and certainly over a 5 year period practically every nation in Europe. This has lead me to have friends in possible 60 countries (I must do the sums tonight).
So I guess I’m saying don’t assume because you speak a few languages you engage with more diversity than me. I am assuming that you speak several languages which is why I suggest you are being a little patronising. But I still reckon you are probably a very interesting person unlike your view of boring bigoted me :-)

I didn't say anything about engaging with more diversity. I pointed out your knowledge was likely to be limited by the lack of access to non-English press. You demonstrate this in your posts by the way.

Having friends in countries is no match for immersion by the way. And it does not qualify you to understand the political context of 26 other countries. In theory Ireland is available to you but your comments about RTE in the past call that into question for you.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Just get in and talk about it. I don’t think the UK need very much to get this over the line but they need something. Dare I say (after I get my helmet on) they just need a little help and wriggle room. Be big enough to do that for the benifit of all

Talk about what?
The UK have red lines and so do we. At the moment you are arguing among yourselves how to preserve your red lines. Get back to us when that argument is over.

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

You are making my point for me.

So you agree that the PM and her team made a balls of it, you are not willing to live with it and as a result you want the EU to sit down and give you more.



Very childish...had the deal benifited the UK/NI you would all be crying tears of joy. Instead you all have to look reality in the eye....the UK has little or no support within the EU and the fact that the EU have not given in to the almighty UK doesnt sit well. Get used to it....aint gonna get better if you leave.


Will you move to mainland UK if the people of NI vote in a few years for a United Ireland???

Will you/have you applied for an Irish passport???
(that is not personal....just interested in how your mind works)

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

You are making my point for me.

He honestly isnt..

The Uk political parties, all of them, are playing with this situation with no regard for Northern Ireland, or the border. Or history for that matter

There is a block within the Tory Party that simply want a No Deal

Another lot want a deal with No Back Stop

Yet another block, want a softer better deal

And their partners in Government the DUP, dont want the backstop.

And that is just the government benches, lets not even discuss the SNP, the Labor Party, or the Lib Dems.

Each block will vote against the deals that are being tabled, and in the end the ERG, the first block, will win becuase they will simply vote againts everything. If we solved the backstop TODAY, they would cry foul.. they want a no deal.. period

Podge_irl

downcow wrote: »

Just get in and talk about it. I don’t think the UK need very much to get this over the line but they need something. Dare I say (after I get my helmet on) they just need a little help and wriggle room. Be big enough to do that for the benifit of all

Except no one has the slightest clue what the UK actually need to "get it over the line", including the UK.

Calina

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you only speak one language doesn't mean you are somehow inferior or misinformed-your posts are usually balanced and reasonably fair but I think that is quite a condescending attitude.

It is not controversial to point out that someone who does not speak German is significantly less likely to have a feel for what the political landscape in Germany is. Likewise most European countries. In addition I pointed out that this was because of poor English language media coverage.

Why do you do think this is condescending?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So is that the way you operate. Both sides have red lines so we are fecked. I am a little more optimistic than that. I need to be cause we have had hundreds of red lines up here on both sides that have all shifted through dialogue and usually last minute up to the wire dialogue

And both sides brought concessions to the table and both sides had things they would not concede.

The UK have been told again and again and again that the agreement will not be revisited because there is nothing to revisit. Nobody has, it seems, anymore concessions to give.
The negotiations are over as a result, there will be no midnight reversal as a result.

The UK dropped a red line and they got a deal, then they put the red line back up and the deal was off.

We all know what has to happen if they want a deal. Otherwise they are free to leave and graze the pastures of plenty we were told about in the campaign.

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

No I haven’t applied for an Irish passport.
Unfortunately for you if you are right 10000s of nationalists will move south to get out of this disaster area NI and the demographics will be shifting the wrong way for you. So don’t think I’ll have to worry bout UI

But in all honesty, sincerely, why are you not directing your frustration toward your PM, and your local MPs? Maybe that is true and lots will move south but you wont? so you will be caught up in a mess? they are predicting an almost 13% drop in the UK economy, which will be horrible, and catastrophic

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

So is that the way you operate. Both sides have red lines so we are fecked. I am a little more optimistic than that. I need to be cause we have had hundreds of red lines up here on both sides that have all shifted through dialogue and usually last minute up to the wire dialogue

What has been going on for the last 2 years??? Sorry to inform you...but the lady you voted into government has already closed the deal. She signed the WA on behalk of the people of the UK.....


https://www.faz.net/aktuell/brexit/brexit-bis-zu-1000-polizisten-an-grenze-zu-irland-15971698.html


And just to show you that you are not being told everything the German press reported in Jan. this year that the UK was training 1000 police officers for border duties between Ireland and Northern Ireland....that alone would tell me that TM and her mates have very little respect for the GF agreement or the welfare of the people of NI. If you leave in a hard Brexit...you will indeed see Northern Irish people from both sides begging very soon for a United Ireland and EU security, grants etc.

volchitsa

downcow wrote: »

No I haven’t applied for an Irish passport.
Unfortunately for you if you are right 10000s of nationalists will move south to get out of this disaster area NI and the demographics will be shifting the wrong way for you. So don’t think I’ll have to worry bout UI

This would be a Pyrrhic victory for unionists though, wouldn't it?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Because it is not them who are refusing to talk

They have talked, you asked for a time limit on the backstop and for it to be removed. The answer was No.

Have you still got a problem with that?
What is it you want?

tuxy

downcow wrote: »

Because it is not them who are refusing to talk

That's because May is not actually talking about anything in these meetings. She is using the meetings to delay in the hope that MPs will panic and vote in her deal. The Eu rightly does not want to play that game.

downcow

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

What has been going on for the last 2 years??? Sorry to inform you...but the lady you voted into government has already closed the deal. She signed the WA on behalk of the people of the UK.....


https://www.faz.net/aktuell/brexit/brexit-bis-zu-1000-polizisten-an-grenze-zu-irland-15971698.html


And just to show you that you are not being told everything the German press reported in Jan. this year that the UK was training 1000 police officers for border duties between Ireland and Northern Ireland....that alone would tell me that TM and her mates have very little respect for the GF agreement or the welfare of the people of NI. If you leave in a hard Brexit...you will indeed see Northern Irish people from both sides begging very soon for a United Ireland and EU security, grants etc.

You are serious?
If UK doesn’t prepare they are a disgrace look at how prepared the roi is
And if they do prepare. Look they don’t care about anyone.
Oh dear

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

Because it is not them who are refusing to talk

the PM of the UKGB&NI agreed a deal

It took 2 years to negotiate

She signed it

Her own Government Voted it down

She has returned to the EU and said, 'we dont want this'

The EU has asked.. ok 'what alternative have you got for the backstop'

She has said.. dunno

????

What exactly would you like the EU to say to that

First Up

downcow wrote:

Just get in and talk about it. I don’t think the UK need very much to get this over the line but they need something. Dare I say (after I get my helmet on) they just need a little help and wriggle room. Be big enough to do that for the benifit of all

How big does the EU need to be to allow Unionist sensitivities over virtually invisible port checks override the simplest, easiest, fairest and most mutually benificial solution?

gooch2k9

downcow wrote: »

You make my point again. It’s not because one party won’t go back because of red lines. But they will have to eventually

Frankly it is due to one party, but I don't really want to drag the thread further into NI!

My surprise was more pointed to the statement all the red lines have been sorted through dialogue when Stormont isn't running and won't be until after Brexit/DUP lose their influence on the Tories.

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

No I haven’t applied for an Irish passport.
Unfortunately for you if you are right 10000s of nationalists will move south to get out of this disaster area NI and the demographics will be shifting the wrong way for you. So don’t think I’ll have to worry bout UI

Trust me, I grew up in the border region in a house where my grandfather was actively involved in border politics in the 70s and early 80s (not Sinn Fein). I had lads at school who went to visit fathers, uncles, grandfathers bi weekly in prision, I had primary school classmates who witnessed the murder of their own mother in their home and a neighbour who was locked away for terrorist activities. All of these people came to the area from Northern Ireland.......brought problems the the majority didnt want.



If I had my way.....Brexit as hard as it gets at midnight tonight. Ask Trump to build his wall from Omeath to Derry and leave the people of Northern Ireland for 20-30 years to get their world together without interferance of UK, Ireland, US or EU.....learn to live together, to govern and understand the real problems of the world.



See how all these wonderful people (from both sides) cope without Dublin or London....let them grow up and realise what reality is in the year 2019.

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

You are serious?
If UK doesn’t prepare they are a disgrace look at how prepared the roi is
And if they do prepare. Look they don’t care about anyone.
Oh dear

Why prepare for something when the WA was clearly agreed and signed???


Think about it and the games being played by the UK....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Enzokk

This is getting silly now. There is no problem debating an issue with someone and you will find people that are disagreeing and they will have their own opinions, but when misinformation is used to justify a position it will mean the discussion will end up with frustration.

The UK is not being punished, the EU has been looking for a solution with the UK. It is not up to the EU to offer the solution to the problem that the UK created. The GFA makes this article 50 notification unique so the next time (if another country really are that adventurous) it will be a smoother process.

Lets get the facts out there again. Neither Ireland nor the UK want to renege on their obligations under the GFA. This, while not written down, means keeping the borders on the island open as the agreement was forged when there was no borders to contend with. This means the only options for the UK is to be in the customs union and large parts of the single market for regulations to ensure checks are not needed at the border, or if the UK insists they don't want this is to then have the border in the Irish Sea.

For reference there are already checks being made there so the opinion that the spirit of the GFA also includes no checks between NI and the UK seems to be false.

Brexit: The NI border checks already in place

There will not be passport checks as long as the UK and Ireland continue with the CTA. In this scenario unionists in NI will still be able to sing God save the Queen, be British and have their rules made from Westminster, unless they don't want to be so British that they want to have their laws from Stormont (looking at you gay marriage and abortion).

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

You are serious?
If UK doesn’t prepare they are a disgrace look at how prepared the roi is
And if they do prepare. Look they don’t care about anyone.
Oh dear

Im genuinely not being condescending - im remaining genuinely respectful

Do you understand that 2 years of negotiating led to a deal that Your PM accepted.. and she was defeated in parliament by her own party, and the DUP

The EU is open to suggestions that do NOT complicate or damage the GFA - they have asked - what are the alternatives.. and depending on what interpretation you have,

she has either said

• Sorry we havent got any
• We will think of something over the next ten years

Can you understand WHY the EU has therefore said no.. sorry

joe40

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Much as I love diversity of opinion and constructive debate, have downcow's posts added anything to the last few pages of this thread?

I fundamentally disagree with virtually all that posters points but I'm glad there are pro brexit posters on the forum. Otherwise it would just be everyone agreeing with each other.
Surely the whole point of an internet forum is different opinions.

RobMc59

Calina wrote: »

It is not controversial to point out that someone who does not speak German is significantly less likely to have a feel for what the political landscape in Germany is. Likewise most European countries. In addition I pointed out that this was because of poor English language media coverage.

Why do you do think this is condescending?

Fair point-I do try to get round that by checking European sites (in English)and don't take what the British press say as gospel anymore which is a result of this forum.

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

You are making my point for me.

downcow wrote: »

Just get in and talk about it. I don’t think the UK need very much to get this over the line but they need something. Dare I say (after I get my helmet on) they just need a little help and wriggle room. Be big enough to do that for the benifit of all

downcow wrote: »

And you won’t know if you don’t burn the midnight oil problem solving in a small room

downcow wrote: »

Well I didn’t here you putting this challenge to your remainer friends on here??

downcow wrote: »

You make my point again. It’s not because one party won’t go back because of red lines. But they will have to eventually

downcow wrote: »

Because it is not them who are refusing to talk

downcow wrote: »

You are serious?
If UK doesn’t prepare they are a disgrace look at how prepared the roi is
And if they do prepare. Look they don’t care about anyone.
Oh dear

Ok. That's it. I'm done.

You have had no end of warnings. You are adding nothing whatsoever to this thread. Do not post in this or any subsequent iteration of this thread again.

Borderhopper

This is as offensive as anything downcow has said. Blaming the majority for a minority's actions. We're not animals or savages just because we were born north of the border

swampgas

So, what happens next?

The EU and Ireland can't really do any more at this point. We just have to wait for the UK to engage in a rational manner, which isn't very likely as they are still thrashing around politically, without leadership or consensus.

I find it weird that there doesn't seem to be more of a sense of urgency or panic in the UK. There is an air of unreality, or of disconnection from reality, as if all this "palaver about Brexit" is just "politics" and not relevant to people's lives. I've visited the UK a few times in the last year and every time it feels as if Brexit hardly registers with people.

Part of me wonders if British people feel powerless, politically? That there is no point protesting or getting upset - just Carry On and Keep On Getting Shafted by the System?

I also wonder (WARNING: WILD SPECULATION AHEAD) if programs on British TV such as Have I Got News For You or Mock The Week are a reflection of deep-rooted political apathy in the face of a broken and corrupt political system. If people feel powerless, they may find refuge in humour, however if they feel they have agency maybe they will be more likely to get angry instead and to get out and protest?

I have zero expectation that a hard crash-out Brexit can be avoided. That's a very sad conclusion to be driven to, and I can understand why Donald Tusk was so angry and pointed with his "special place in hell" remarks.

If the UK was a person they would be sectioned for their own safety, for blatant self-harming, delusional beliefs and multiple personality disorder.

Folkstonian

Calina wrote: »

The UK and Ireland are islands. The kind of movement in practical terms is significantly harder.

But actually your problem is clearly foreigners.

Pretty low and lazy to brand me a xenophobic because I disagree with you about the benefits of the schengen zone, or at a more fundamental level, protecting external borders.

But also, we have this thing called the channel tunnel. There are lots of checks on things coming through from continental Europe, which uncover all sorts of unpleasant people and items at the moment even with a fully fledged border policing operation.

Logic would suggest that when the deterrence of identification and seizure/ arrest are removed, criminals will have a field day.

listermint

Folkstonian wrote: »

Not entirely fair - I will be affected by whichever Brexit outcome we have next month as much as the next person. I do have the obligatory foreign granny (are you even a millennial without one?) but she didn’t have the foresight and good grace to be from the EU. So my ability to live and work in Europe will go. As for any ‘privilege’, I feel privileged only to have been taught the importance of hard work and resilience by my parents and haven’t ever, and won’t ever, look to them for financial assistance (unlike my two sisters, one of whom they financed through training to become a pilot). So I take a little bit of offence at that because I’m not anything like the person you’ve tried to portray me as a couple of times. I have empathy for anyone who will be affected, but I’m not sure what good right now it would do to pretend that things aren’t going to change. Better to look for positives and opportunities just over the horizon

Okay let's stick on your closing as argument there.

Name them

Name the positives and opportunities.

Name , let's keep its simple, three.

Three positives from brexit backed up with facts