Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Just get in and talk about it. I don’t think the UK need very much to get this over the line but they need something. Dare I say (after I get my helmet on) they just need a little help and wriggle room. Be big enough to do that for the benifit of all

Talk about what?
The UK have red lines and so do we. At the moment you are arguing among yourselves how to preserve your red lines. Get back to us when that argument is over.

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

You are making my point for me.

So you agree that the PM and her team made a balls of it, you are not willing to live with it and as a result you want the EU to sit down and give you more.



Very childish...had the deal benifited the UK/NI you would all be crying tears of joy. Instead you all have to look reality in the eye....the UK has little or no support within the EU and the fact that the EU have not given in to the almighty UK doesnt sit well. Get used to it....aint gonna get better if you leave.


Will you move to mainland UK if the people of NI vote in a few years for a United Ireland???

Will you/have you applied for an Irish passport???
(that is not personal....just interested in how your mind works)

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

You are making my point for me.

He honestly isnt..

The Uk political parties, all of them, are playing with this situation with no regard for Northern Ireland, or the border. Or history for that matter

There is a block within the Tory Party that simply want a No Deal

Another lot want a deal with No Back Stop

Yet another block, want a softer better deal

And their partners in Government the DUP, dont want the backstop.

And that is just the government benches, lets not even discuss the SNP, the Labor Party, or the Lib Dems.

Each block will vote against the deals that are being tabled, and in the end the ERG, the first block, will win becuase they will simply vote againts everything. If we solved the backstop TODAY, they would cry foul.. they want a no deal.. period

Podge_irl

downcow wrote: »

Just get in and talk about it. I don’t think the UK need very much to get this over the line but they need something. Dare I say (after I get my helmet on) they just need a little help and wriggle room. Be big enough to do that for the benifit of all

Except no one has the slightest clue what the UK actually need to "get it over the line", including the UK.

Calina

RobMc59 wrote: »

If you only speak one language doesn't mean you are somehow inferior or misinformed-your posts are usually balanced and reasonably fair but I think that is quite a condescending attitude.

It is not controversial to point out that someone who does not speak German is significantly less likely to have a feel for what the political landscape in Germany is. Likewise most European countries. In addition I pointed out that this was because of poor English language media coverage.

Why do you do think this is condescending?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So is that the way you operate. Both sides have red lines so we are fecked. I am a little more optimistic than that. I need to be cause we have had hundreds of red lines up here on both sides that have all shifted through dialogue and usually last minute up to the wire dialogue

And both sides brought concessions to the table and both sides had things they would not concede.

The UK have been told again and again and again that the agreement will not be revisited because there is nothing to revisit. Nobody has, it seems, anymore concessions to give.
The negotiations are over as a result, there will be no midnight reversal as a result.

The UK dropped a red line and they got a deal, then they put the red line back up and the deal was off.

We all know what has to happen if they want a deal. Otherwise they are free to leave and graze the pastures of plenty we were told about in the campaign.

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

No I haven’t applied for an Irish passport.
Unfortunately for you if you are right 10000s of nationalists will move south to get out of this disaster area NI and the demographics will be shifting the wrong way for you. So don’t think I’ll have to worry bout UI

But in all honesty, sincerely, why are you not directing your frustration toward your PM, and your local MPs? Maybe that is true and lots will move south but you wont? so you will be caught up in a mess? they are predicting an almost 13% drop in the UK economy, which will be horrible, and catastrophic

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

So is that the way you operate. Both sides have red lines so we are fecked. I am a little more optimistic than that. I need to be cause we have had hundreds of red lines up here on both sides that have all shifted through dialogue and usually last minute up to the wire dialogue

What has been going on for the last 2 years??? Sorry to inform you...but the lady you voted into government has already closed the deal. She signed the WA on behalk of the people of the UK.....


https://www.faz.net/aktuell/brexit/brexit-bis-zu-1000-polizisten-an-grenze-zu-irland-15971698.html


And just to show you that you are not being told everything the German press reported in Jan. this year that the UK was training 1000 police officers for border duties between Ireland and Northern Ireland....that alone would tell me that TM and her mates have very little respect for the GF agreement or the welfare of the people of NI. If you leave in a hard Brexit...you will indeed see Northern Irish people from both sides begging very soon for a United Ireland and EU security, grants etc.

volchitsa

downcow wrote: »

No I haven’t applied for an Irish passport.
Unfortunately for you if you are right 10000s of nationalists will move south to get out of this disaster area NI and the demographics will be shifting the wrong way for you. So don’t think I’ll have to worry bout UI

This would be a Pyrrhic victory for unionists though, wouldn't it?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Because it is not them who are refusing to talk

They have talked, you asked for a time limit on the backstop and for it to be removed. The answer was No.

Have you still got a problem with that?
What is it you want?

tuxy

downcow wrote: »

Because it is not them who are refusing to talk

That's because May is not actually talking about anything in these meetings. She is using the meetings to delay in the hope that MPs will panic and vote in her deal. The Eu rightly does not want to play that game.

downcow

Irishmale0399 wrote: »

What has been going on for the last 2 years??? Sorry to inform you...but the lady you voted into government has already closed the deal. She signed the WA on behalk of the people of the UK.....


https://www.faz.net/aktuell/brexit/brexit-bis-zu-1000-polizisten-an-grenze-zu-irland-15971698.html


And just to show you that you are not being told everything the German press reported in Jan. this year that the UK was training 1000 police officers for border duties between Ireland and Northern Ireland....that alone would tell me that TM and her mates have very little respect for the GF agreement or the welfare of the people of NI. If you leave in a hard Brexit...you will indeed see Northern Irish people from both sides begging very soon for a United Ireland and EU security, grants etc.

You are serious?
If UK doesn’t prepare they are a disgrace look at how prepared the roi is
And if they do prepare. Look they don’t care about anyone.
Oh dear

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

Because it is not them who are refusing to talk

the PM of the UKGB&NI agreed a deal

It took 2 years to negotiate

She signed it

Her own Government Voted it down

She has returned to the EU and said, 'we dont want this'

The EU has asked.. ok 'what alternative have you got for the backstop'

She has said.. dunno

????

What exactly would you like the EU to say to that

First Up

downcow wrote:

Just get in and talk about it. I don’t think the UK need very much to get this over the line but they need something. Dare I say (after I get my helmet on) they just need a little help and wriggle room. Be big enough to do that for the benifit of all

How big does the EU need to be to allow Unionist sensitivities over virtually invisible port checks override the simplest, easiest, fairest and most mutually benificial solution?

gooch2k9

downcow wrote: »

You make my point again. It’s not because one party won’t go back because of red lines. But they will have to eventually

Frankly it is due to one party, but I don't really want to drag the thread further into NI!

My surprise was more pointed to the statement all the red lines have been sorted through dialogue when Stormont isn't running and won't be until after Brexit/DUP lose their influence on the Tories.

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

No I haven’t applied for an Irish passport.
Unfortunately for you if you are right 10000s of nationalists will move south to get out of this disaster area NI and the demographics will be shifting the wrong way for you. So don’t think I’ll have to worry bout UI

Trust me, I grew up in the border region in a house where my grandfather was actively involved in border politics in the 70s and early 80s (not Sinn Fein). I had lads at school who went to visit fathers, uncles, grandfathers bi weekly in prision, I had primary school classmates who witnessed the murder of their own mother in their home and a neighbour who was locked away for terrorist activities. All of these people came to the area from Northern Ireland.......brought problems the the majority didnt want.



If I had my way.....Brexit as hard as it gets at midnight tonight. Ask Trump to build his wall from Omeath to Derry and leave the people of Northern Ireland for 20-30 years to get their world together without interferance of UK, Ireland, US or EU.....learn to live together, to govern and understand the real problems of the world.



See how all these wonderful people (from both sides) cope without Dublin or London....let them grow up and realise what reality is in the year 2019.

Irishmale0399

downcow wrote: »

You are serious?
If UK doesn’t prepare they are a disgrace look at how prepared the roi is
And if they do prepare. Look they don’t care about anyone.
Oh dear

Why prepare for something when the WA was clearly agreed and signed???


Think about it and the games being played by the UK....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Enzokk

This is getting silly now. There is no problem debating an issue with someone and you will find people that are disagreeing and they will have their own opinions, but when misinformation is used to justify a position it will mean the discussion will end up with frustration.

The UK is not being punished, the EU has been looking for a solution with the UK. It is not up to the EU to offer the solution to the problem that the UK created. The GFA makes this article 50 notification unique so the next time (if another country really are that adventurous) it will be a smoother process.

Lets get the facts out there again. Neither Ireland nor the UK want to renege on their obligations under the GFA. This, while not written down, means keeping the borders on the island open as the agreement was forged when there was no borders to contend with. This means the only options for the UK is to be in the customs union and large parts of the single market for regulations to ensure checks are not needed at the border, or if the UK insists they don't want this is to then have the border in the Irish Sea.

For reference there are already checks being made there so the opinion that the spirit of the GFA also includes no checks between NI and the UK seems to be false.

Brexit: The NI border checks already in place

There will not be passport checks as long as the UK and Ireland continue with the CTA. In this scenario unionists in NI will still be able to sing God save the Queen, be British and have their rules made from Westminster, unless they don't want to be so British that they want to have their laws from Stormont (looking at you gay marriage and abortion).

liamtech

downcow wrote: »

You are serious?
If UK doesn’t prepare they are a disgrace look at how prepared the roi is
And if they do prepare. Look they don’t care about anyone.
Oh dear

Im genuinely not being condescending - im remaining genuinely respectful

Do you understand that 2 years of negotiating led to a deal that Your PM accepted.. and she was defeated in parliament by her own party, and the DUP

The EU is open to suggestions that do NOT complicate or damage the GFA - they have asked - what are the alternatives.. and depending on what interpretation you have,

she has either said

• Sorry we havent got any
• We will think of something over the next ten years

Can you understand WHY the EU has therefore said no.. sorry

joe40

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Much as I love diversity of opinion and constructive debate, have downcow's posts added anything to the last few pages of this thread?

I fundamentally disagree with virtually all that posters points but I'm glad there are pro brexit posters on the forum. Otherwise it would just be everyone agreeing with each other.
Surely the whole point of an internet forum is different opinions.

RobMc59

Calina wrote: »

It is not controversial to point out that someone who does not speak German is significantly less likely to have a feel for what the political landscape in Germany is. Likewise most European countries. In addition I pointed out that this was because of poor English language media coverage.

Why do you do think this is condescending?

Fair point-I do try to get round that by checking European sites (in English)and don't take what the British press say as gospel anymore which is a result of this forum.

ancapailldorcha

downcow wrote: »

You are making my point for me.

downcow wrote: »

Just get in and talk about it. I don’t think the UK need very much to get this over the line but they need something. Dare I say (after I get my helmet on) they just need a little help and wriggle room. Be big enough to do that for the benifit of all

downcow wrote: »

And you won’t know if you don’t burn the midnight oil problem solving in a small room

downcow wrote: »

Well I didn’t here you putting this challenge to your remainer friends on here??

downcow wrote: »

You make my point again. It’s not because one party won’t go back because of red lines. But they will have to eventually

downcow wrote: »

Because it is not them who are refusing to talk

downcow wrote: »

You are serious?
If UK doesn’t prepare they are a disgrace look at how prepared the roi is
And if they do prepare. Look they don’t care about anyone.
Oh dear

Ok. That's it. I'm done.

You have had no end of warnings. You are adding nothing whatsoever to this thread. Do not post in this or any subsequent iteration of this thread again.

Borderhopper

This is as offensive as anything downcow has said. Blaming the majority for a minority's actions. We're not animals or savages just because we were born north of the border

swampgas

So, what happens next?

The EU and Ireland can't really do any more at this point. We just have to wait for the UK to engage in a rational manner, which isn't very likely as they are still thrashing around politically, without leadership or consensus.

I find it weird that there doesn't seem to be more of a sense of urgency or panic in the UK. There is an air of unreality, or of disconnection from reality, as if all this "palaver about Brexit" is just "politics" and not relevant to people's lives. I've visited the UK a few times in the last year and every time it feels as if Brexit hardly registers with people.

Part of me wonders if British people feel powerless, politically? That there is no point protesting or getting upset - just Carry On and Keep On Getting Shafted by the System?

I also wonder (WARNING: WILD SPECULATION AHEAD) if programs on British TV such as Have I Got News For You or Mock The Week are a reflection of deep-rooted political apathy in the face of a broken and corrupt political system. If people feel powerless, they may find refuge in humour, however if they feel they have agency maybe they will be more likely to get angry instead and to get out and protest?

I have zero expectation that a hard crash-out Brexit can be avoided. That's a very sad conclusion to be driven to, and I can understand why Donald Tusk was so angry and pointed with his "special place in hell" remarks.

If the UK was a person they would be sectioned for their own safety, for blatant self-harming, delusional beliefs and multiple personality disorder.

Folkstonian

Calina wrote: »

The UK and Ireland are islands. The kind of movement in practical terms is significantly harder.

But actually your problem is clearly foreigners.

Pretty low and lazy to brand me a xenophobic because I disagree with you about the benefits of the schengen zone, or at a more fundamental level, protecting external borders.

But also, we have this thing called the channel tunnel. There are lots of checks on things coming through from continental Europe, which uncover all sorts of unpleasant people and items at the moment even with a fully fledged border policing operation.

Logic would suggest that when the deterrence of identification and seizure/ arrest are removed, criminals will have a field day.

listermint

Folkstonian wrote: »

Not entirely fair - I will be affected by whichever Brexit outcome we have next month as much as the next person. I do have the obligatory foreign granny (are you even a millennial without one?) but she didn’t have the foresight and good grace to be from the EU. So my ability to live and work in Europe will go. As for any ‘privilege’, I feel privileged only to have been taught the importance of hard work and resilience by my parents and haven’t ever, and won’t ever, look to them for financial assistance (unlike my two sisters, one of whom they financed through training to become a pilot). So I take a little bit of offence at that because I’m not anything like the person you’ve tried to portray me as a couple of times. I have empathy for anyone who will be affected, but I’m not sure what good right now it would do to pretend that things aren’t going to change. Better to look for positives and opportunities just over the horizon

Okay let's stick on your closing as argument there.

Name them

Name the positives and opportunities.

Name , let's keep its simple, three.

Three positives from brexit backed up with facts

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

It would be fair to give the UK an 'out' to save face. Like if a stranger and a friend get into a disagreement over whatever, the right thing to do is trying to offer into the discussion a way that things can be deescalated.
Putting forward a way to change what will happen is the most sensible thing to do. If anybody doesn't listen to it then that becomes their problem and you have done all you can do in a given situation.

The problem is that the UK have put red lines in place while only having a conversation with itself. Like a crazy homeless person that you simply have to walk away from.

There isn't really any 'out' the EU can give Great Britain at this stage. They could try give token concessions. Anything of substance has already been put forward as the central and only position.

Capt'n Midnight

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

It would be fair to give the UK an 'out' to save face.

Maybe Labour could help there ?

No.

The reality is that Labour only say they "could" hold a second referendum
after an election
which could only happen if there's an extension to Article 50
also labour would have to win the election, something that got a lot harder
and the referendum would be on a renegotiated Brexit deal (good luck)
and they could still loose that referendum

We're right back at six impossible tests.


Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said if his party won power he would renegotiate a Brexit deal with the European Union and could hold another referendum, as he comes under pressure to support giving the public another chance to stay in the bloc.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Okay let's stick on your closing as argument there.

Name them

Name the positives and opportunities.

Name , let's keep its simple, three.

Three positives from brexit backed up with facts

It's been a solid 45 minutes folkstonian


Maybe I'm being too harsh on brexit.

I want you to confince me with three positives from brexit. With associated facts to explain them.

It's an opportunity here to turn me. I'm open for convincing.

liamtech

The only Hypothetical solution i can forsee is a general election.

My thought experiment would be as follows:

-May loses the vote, and then thanks to defections, and resignations loses a confidence vote - General Election triggered

-An extension would obviously be needed at this stage. and i expect the EU would agree to one.

-Labor would not get a majority, but neither would the Tory Party.

-But Labor could possibly enter a coalition with the SNP, the Lib Dems, and perhaps TIG. All of whom would insist on a re run of the Referendum - and could also insist that it be a straight forward question - a kin to 'Do you still want this folks'

As to the outcome i dont see any serious arguments for Brexit other than 'its not fair we won fair and square'.. 'this is not democratic'.. and 'the EU are [Insert unparliamentary language]'..

If they still ended up in a brexit situation then, in all honesty i would eat my hat, but its so polarizing it might actually be a bigger majority for Brexit