Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

J Mysterio

Graham Brady in tomorrow's Mail on Sunday: 'I voted against May's Deal, now I'm ready to back it'.

Laois_Man

Probably the best speech I have ever seen from the UK side on Brexit. Unfortunately it was in the HoL rather than the HoC but it was refreshing to see one of them finally talk truth and common sense about the EU backing of the Irish and the prospect of UK trade-deals making them stronger in the long run (or not)

Inquitus

J Mysterio wrote: »

Graham Brady in tomorrow's Mail on Sunday: 'I voted against May's Deal, now I'm ready to back it'.

Only if the backstop is temporary or has an exit mechanism, or maybe pressure is being put on the AG to say that when nothing fundamental has changed......

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6764739/SIR-GRAHAM-BRADY-explains-changed-mind-Mrs-Mays-Brexit-deal.html

Calina

Inquitus wrote: »

Only if the backstop is temporary or has an exit mechanism, or maybe pressure is being put on the AG to say that when nothing fundamental has changed......

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6764739/SIR-GRAHAM-BRADY-explains-changed-mind-Mrs-Mays-Brexit-deal.html

The backstop has an exit mechanism. The UK seems to be afraid it won't be to their taste on one front (future trading arrangements) or they won't be able to deliver on another front (technology solution).

This talk of a US trade deal or whatever is largely pointless. The UK won't sign something that locks them out of the EU forever. Imagine the protests.

20silkcut

Laois_Man wrote: »

Probably the best speech I have ever seen from the UK side on Brexit. Unfortunately it was in the HoL rather than the HoC but it was refreshing to see one of them finally talk truth and common sense about the EU backing of the Irish and the prospect of UK trade-deals making them stronger in the long run (or not)

Saw that speech and a few more speeches from the lords have popped up on my feed as a result.
It is like a completely different country to the House of Commons.
Almost every single one of them are anti brexit.
But then they have a lot to lose in a hard brexit. Many of them own big country estates with thousands of acres of land attracting big EU subsidies.
Historically this rhymes with the corn law debate of the 19th century and that turned out very bad for the landed gentry.

VinLieger

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This talk of a US trade deal or whatever is largely pointless. The UK won't sign something that locks them out of the EU forever. Imagine the protests.

"the uk wont leave the eu with no deal think of the chaos".......

Also the proposed deal locks them out of china too so much for the special relationship

Shelga

Laois_Man wrote: »

Probably the best speech I have ever seen from the UK side on Brexit. Unfortunately it was in the HoL rather than the HoC but it was refreshing to see one of them finally talk truth and common sense about the EU backing of the Irish and the prospect of UK trade-deals making them stronger in the long run (or not)

Wow, not what I would have expected from the HoL. Refreshing to see someone with such humility and common sense- completely lacking in the HoC. Even the Remainers there seem to be afraid of saying how absolutely awful an idea the whole thing is, for fear of upsetting people who voted Leave. I really don’t see what’s so offensive about saying, look, you voted for a vague promise of sunlit uplands last time- here’s the reality of the awful deal- would you like to vote again?

But voters still delude themselves that they can get something better. Somehow.

That lady behind the speaker on her phone for the entirety of his speech was a disgrace, though!

mickoneill31

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

What can the UK offer US that it doesn't already have?

Unfettered access to the UK market. Not good for the UK but the US would like it.

A back door into Europe. If only they can get rid of that pesky backstop.

ancapailldorcha

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

What can the UK offer US that it doesn't already have?

The NHS for one. It's one of the largest employers in the world. US healthcare firms would love to get awarded contracts to run hospitals and the like.

Akrasia

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The NHS for one. It's one of the largest employers in the world. US healthcare firms would love to get awarded contracts to run hospitals and the like.

Only 10% of the UK public support privatisation of the NHS.

It would be the greatest irony of all time if a government, acting to deliver on 'the will of the people', many of whom voted to secure increased resources for public healthcare, ended up privatizing the NHS as a direct consequence of brexit.

It would be even more ironic if the leader of the opposition allowed it to happen on the mistaken belief that leaving the EU was a way to reduce or reverse privatisation.

20silkcut

Shelga wrote: »

Wow, not what I would have expected from the HoL. Refreshing to see someone with such humility and common sense- completely lacking in the HoC. Even the Remainers there seem to be afraid of saying how absolutely awful an idea the whole thing is, for fear of upsetting people who voted Leave. I really don’t see what’s so offensive about saying, look, you voted for a vague promise of sunlit uplands last time- here’s the reality of the awful deal- would you like to vote again?

But voters still delude themselves that they can get something better. Somehow.

That lady behind the speaker on her phone for the entirety of his speech was a disgrace, though!

I honestly think it’s because the real reason a lot of people voted brexit was because their country has become unrecognizable with foreigners.
Any argument about trade and disruption and loss of industry etc completely washes over their heads and they don’t care .They just want the foreigners to stop coming and it seems they are prepared to endure economic hardship to make it happen.
Politicians know this and just can’t address it. So they just keep their mouth shut and hope parliament votes against no deal.
But they don’t want to be seen to speak out against brexit.

And brexit won’t stop the foreigners coming.

Sam Russell

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Over on UK forums they are insisting there is nothing wrong with chlorinated chicken as people swim all time in swimming pools with chlorinated water.

The problem with chlorinated chicken is not the chlorine - it why it is needed.

The way chickens in the US system are reared gives rise to high levels of pathogens in the chickens - e coli, salmonella, and c dificile. Now it is possible to reduce the levels of these in the dead chickens by washing them in baths of chlorinated water - reducing not eliminating. It is supposed in the USA that by labelling the chickens with a warning that the chicken must be cooked thoroughly that the problem will be eliminated. The result is many deaths from food poisoning. A high percentage of home cooks do not even understand what 'cook thoroughly' actually means - the meat must exceed 95 degrees centigrade. [That is 200 degrees F = for American readers!]

Food safety is of paramount importance in the EU. In the US it is corporate profits.

20silkcut

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Yet UK government imported over quarter of a million more people in last year from outside EU

Yes and of course and brexit could bring even more foreigners with new trade deals.
This is a point that should be hammered home but no politician will touch it because of political correctness. It’s always economic arguments they use.
They Should be shouting from the rooftops that brexit won’t stop the foreigners.

CelticRambler

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Over on UK forums they are insisting there is nothing wrong with chlorinated chicken as people swim all time in swimming pools with chlorinated water.

This is the worst aspect of the propaganda war, because "they" are more or less correct. As Sam Russell says, above, it's not the "what" that matters in this case, but the "why" and that is something that's a message that's a lot harder to put across - especially to people who are determined to not listen!

When it comes to animal welfare, food production and food safety, we in Europe are light years ahead of the US. If your only experience of "America" comes through Hollywood movies and sanitised trips to Disneyland, it'd be easy to believe that it's a clean and civilised country, and that their standards are comparable to ours. How do you explain to a Brexiteer keyboard warrior, safe in his/her EU-regulated comfort-zone, that standards practised in much of the US would put the average halting site to shame?

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

Only 10% of the UK public support privatisation of the NHS.

It would be the greatest irony of all time if a government, acting to deliver on 'the will of the people', many of whom voted to secure increased resources for public healthcare, ended up privatizing the NHS as a direct consequence of brexit.

It would be even more ironic if the leader of the opposition allowed it to happen on the mistaken belief that leaving the EU was a way to reduce or reverse privatisation.

It's been coming for a while. Trusts, ratings, competition, outsourcing etc. Labour opened the door for it.

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Over on UK forums they are insisting there is nothing wrong with chlorinated chicken as people swim all time in swimming pools with chlorinated water.

This Brexit thing has parallels with Trumpism, flat earthers and religions. The amount of stupid makes one question the future of humankind

US Ambassador was quick to poo-poo the issue saying the chlorinating fruit and vegetables is common in Europe. The point being completely missed has been covered by others in this thread.

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1102163755469803520
Honestly it's all a game to these people

Water John

Like what did there, 'poo poo' ref.

black forest

Since quite a while now there is a so called Lisbon Treaty 2020 or 2022 fake circulating especially in FaceBook but other social media like Twitter as well. Of course most people can see it as what it is, a stupid fake. But no one went through the work to debunk it and quite a few people fell for it´s content.

For me it was like one of these annoying pebbles in my shoe. Most of the time you forget about it but suddenly it makes itself felt when you are not expecting it. There are a few slightly different versions on the roll. One of the oldest you can find here or as a compressed .doc below.


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=474485&stc=1&d=1551613964


The most prominent version taken from the Twitter account below:


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=474486&stc=1&d=1551614357


https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=474488&stc=1&d=1551614843


It took a Professor for EU, Human Rights and World Trade Law named Steve Peers from the University of Essex to debunk it in all it´s points at Twitter. He obviously caught a relative of my pebble in one of his shoes and reacted in a slightly humerous way.


https://twitter.com/stevepeers/status/1087258784001654784?s=21


So next time a brexiteer is throwing this sh**e at you you can react accordingly. Hopefully someone will create a proper pdf from it for easy use.

Igotadose

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem with chlorinated chicken is not the chlorine - it why it is needed.

Food safety is of paramount importance in the EU. In the US it is corporate profits.

And, salmonella outbreaks happen of course. So even with whatever protections are in place in the US and admonishments on labels, it's not enough.

I'd expect there are food safety issues in the EU, but it seems to me having lived here for nearly 5 years, that they're much fewer and further between. The most dramatic one I remember was something about horsemeat in hamburger a few years ago, and I think the issue there wasn't bacteria but that you're not supposed to be getting horsemeat in your hamburgers.

volchitsa

Igotadose wrote: »

And, salmonella outbreaks happen of course. So even with whatever protections are in place in the US and admonishments on labels, it's not enough.

I'd expect there are food safety issues in the EU, but it seems to me having lived here for nearly 5 years, that they're much fewer and further between. The most dramatic one I remember was something about horsemeat in hamburger a few years ago, and I think the issue there wasn't bacteria but that you're not supposed to be getting horsemeat in your hamburgers.

There are a lot more deaths in the USA from salmonella and listeria than in Europe, so it seems that chlorine washing poorly-produced meat doesn't work that well: Chlorine washing fails bacteria tests for salmonella, listeria

CelticRambler

Igotadose wrote: »

I'd expect there are food safety issues in the EU, but it seems to me having lived here for nearly 5 years, that they're much fewer and further between.

Correct.
Cases of (reported) salmonellosis per year in the EU [pop 512m] ~100000 (source EFSA) = 1 case per 5000
Cases of (reported) salmonellosis per year in the US [pop 325m] ~1200000 (source CDC) = 1 case per 270

Similar stats for other food-borne pathogens. When you start to delve into diseases of probable environmental-origin (pollution, heavy metal poisoning, etc) it gets worse. By the time you start reading about rates of infant mortality and maternal death in childbirth in a supposedly developed country, you'd have to be severely intellectually impaired to want to let the Americans have anything to do with your health or healthcare.

Water John

Simply, it's better having no sh1t on meat rather than washing it off later.

Looks like Brady and Mogg are the ones blinking and not the EU. Both now will back TM's Deal and what did the they get extra from the EU, SFA.
Will it pass is the question? If the DUP hold their noses and some LB defectors might see it through. It will be tight. Then the LB proposal of letting her Deal through provided their is a second Ref might win out.
All to play for.

Sam Russell

Igotadose wrote: »

And, salmonella outbreaks happen of course. So even with whatever protections are in place in the US and admonishments on labels, it's not enough.

I'd expect there are food safety issues in the EU, but it seems to me having lived here for nearly 5 years, that they're much fewer and further between. The most dramatic one I remember was something about horsemeat in hamburger a few years ago, and I think the issue there wasn't bacteria but that you're not supposed to be getting horsemeat in your hamburgers.

That was a case of food fraud. You can get horsemeat in your burger if it says so on the label. Horsemeat is freely sold in the EU particularly in France and eastern Europe, but it is a cheaper meat. Selling it as beef is fraud.

You are not suppose to get salmonella or e coli or c dificile in your meat whatever it says on the label.

Most pork and chicken production in the USA is controlled by a few large corporations who contract out the actual farm level production on contract to the lowest bidders who get squeezed on price since they have no economic leverage as there are few buyers, and consequently these small scale producers are price takes. Consequentially, standards are low, and get lower as time goes on. Some of these better production methods would add a few cents per kilo to production costs.

No Gov should agree to importing American meat or meat products.

trashcan

20silkcut wrote: »

I honestly think it’s because the real reason a lot of people voted brexit was because their country has become unrecognizable with foreigners

And brexit won’t stop the foreigners coming.

Completely agree. I've always felt that Brexit was, to a huge extent, an anti immigrant vote. And of course your last point is the supreme irony. It's highly unlikely that it will significantly reduce immigration, or indeed result in anyone being "sent home". Britain of course, like other EU nations, has always had control over non EU immigration,except where the rules apply to EU family members.

Infini

We had this subject on the import of US meat a while back. Did a check and the food poisoning rates in the US is 3 times that of the EU. That tells you the significant difference between the 2 in terms of quality control.

strandroad

Infini wrote: »

We had this subject on the import of US meat a while back. Did a check and the food poisoning rates in the US is 3 times that of the EU. That tells you the significant difference between the 2 in terms of quality control.

Also I don't think that you can fully rely on American reporting rates. Some people there do not receive medical treatment when ill and do not present anywhere lest they be charged for healthcare.

LeinsterDub

https://m.independent.ie/business/brexit/taoiseach-tells-ministers-brexit-deadline-to-be-extended-until-june-37872552.html

Interesting if true but of course it's the indo so pinch of salt. However I'm likely consider it true as the British don't have enough time left now to get there house in order. I'm assuming May gets her deal passed then an extension till June being the order of events?

prawnsambo

Infini wrote: »

We had this subject on the import of US meat a while back. Did a check and the food poisoning rates in the US is 3 times that of the EU. That tells you the significant difference between the 2 in terms of quality control.

I believe it's a good deal more than that. The statistic that shocked me was that one in four people in the US suffer food-borne illness every year.

Even the way the Irish Independent reports stuff is so off. "He's leaning towards an extension" reads as if it's what he wants or that it's his decision. There quite simply isn't enough time for the deal to go through at this stage in legal terms.