Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

prawnsambo

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Will they be advertising it as hormone injected beef?

If it isn’t cheaper people are going to be looking for British or EU flags.

Well they don't have to abide by EU rules for stuff sold in the UK. It's only when it hits the SM that rules will apply.

First Up

prawnsambo wrote:

Edit: Just on the cheaper or not issue, you're correct. As long as the UK is in the CU, there will be no tariffs from EU suppliers.

???

Sam Russell

prawnsambo wrote: »

Well they don't have to abide by EU rules for stuff sold in the UK. It's only when it hits the SM that rules will apply.

Which is why we need the backstop because the crap meat will leak across our border.

Whenever I go north, which is not often, I am astonished at the amount of 'British beef' (with big Union flags all over it) is on sale in NI when it must be Irish beef, given it is being sold in Ireland, and we export tons of it. According to the late Ian Paisley, 'We are British but our cows are Irish' but not any more.

Water John

See a programme on beef farm units in USA. One farmer had 4 feed lots, 3 for home market and 1 for The Netherlands.
Different type of stock and fed and treated to EU standards.
UK could open their market to US beef and demand EU Standards. Not sure Trump would agree to it.

Sam that's almost certainly produced in NI. May in fact be store cattle bought in the ROI and finished in NI. You can see why the animals are ambivalent as to their heritage!!!

Seth Brundle

The Japanese are getting anxious over the uncertainty...

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1102597234011586568

Sam Russell

Water John wrote: »

Sam that's almost certainly produced in NI. May in fact be store cattle bought in the ROI and finished in NI. You can see why the animals are ambivalent as to their heritage!!!

Of course it is - that is the point I am making. If it came from GB it would have to pass the sanitary and phytosanitary inspection at the ports to get onto the island of Ireland. It just makes a mockery of Irish vs British beef.


Talking of which :-

Wrong country code on label leads to confusion around SuperValu beef

SuperValu has moved to dispel claims that fresh beef on its shelves at a Co Wicklow supermarket is not Irish.

The Musgrave-owned supermarket chain, SuperValu, had come under fire in recent days after farmers took to social media to show what appeared to be Greek beef in the supermarket.

However, SuperValu has confirmed the beef in the image is 100pc Irish. "Regrettably due to an in-store printing error, the wrong country code was keyed in when labelling the product," it said in a statement.

It also said that SuperValu has a long standing commitment to Irish farmers and 100pc of our SuperValu branded beef is Irish.

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/beef/wrong-country-code-on-label-leads-to-confusion-around-supervalu-beef-37876559.html

Strazdas

Booker of The Telegraph and Dr. Richard North pointing out this weekend that May's red lines of 2017 and becoming a "third country" is turning out to be a catastrophically bad decision by the UK. They suggest that Britain might have been able to weather the Brexit storm with full Single Market membership, but the consequences of removing itself from everything are proving to be utterly dire.

jm08

Sam Russell wrote: »

Which is why we need the backstop because the crap meat will leak across our border.

Whenever I go north, which is not often, I am astonished at the amount of 'British beef' (with big Union flags all over it) is on sale in NI when it must be Irish beef, given it is being sold in Ireland, and we export tons of it. According to the late Ian Paisley, 'We are British but our cows are Irish' but not any more.

That is something brought about by the supermarkets and has created major problems for the cross border cattle trade. Supermarkets (like Tesco) have got a bee in their bonnet about beef that originates from different countries (despite being under same EU regs). This has stopped a lot of the trade where ROI farmers supplied animals to NI farmers for fattening. Animals born in ROI and fattened in NI are not acceptable. Tesco have no problem selling either British or Irish beef though. Its all a nonsense really. Seemingly, its what the consumer wants.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/tesco-bans-sale-of-beef-from-cows-born-in-republic-and-fattened-in-northern-ireland-30515533.html

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

That is something brought about by the supermarkets and has created major problems for the cross border cattle trade. Supermarkets (like Tesco) have got a bee in their bonnet about beef that originates from different countries (despite being under same EU regs). This has stopped a lot of the trade where ROI farmers supplied animals to NI farmers for fattening. Animals born in ROI and fattened in NI are not acceptable. Tesco have no problem selling either British or Irish beef though. Its all a nonsense really. Seemingly, its what the consumer wants.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/tesco-bans-sale-of-beef-from-cows-born-in-republic-and-fattened-in-northern-ireland-30515533.html

I saw a tin of sliced beef in gravy in a shop last week which looked lovely in the picture -I read the label which said:"beef from Romanian EU beef"which put me off-i know it's silly as it has to meet the required standards but it just didnt appeal to me.

Kermit.de.frog

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The Japanese are getting anxious over the uncertainty...

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1102597234011586568

Why would Nissan or Honda remain in UK outside EU?

There does not appear to be any compelling practical reason.

UK market is too small for such operations. They want to sell their products in the EU seamlessly. Can't do that any more.

Jim2007

prawnsambo wrote: »

I don't think so. Afaik, they can do independent trade deals after 29th March and during the transition period.

The whole point of a customs union as recognised by the WTO is that it operates as a single block, so no independent trading is not going to happen while they remain in the customs union, the WTO will not accept it.

jm08

RobMc59 wrote: »

I saw a tin of sliced beef in gravy in a shop last week which looked lovely in the picture -I read the label which said:"beef from Romanian EU beef"which put me off-i know it's silly as it has to meet the required standards but it just didnt appeal to me.

Personally, I'd avoid anything labelled British beef because of the whole mad cow disease and Foot and Mouth.

Jim2007

Water John wrote: »

See a programme on beef farm units in USA. One farmer had 4 feed lots, 3 for home market and 1 for The Netherlands.

The important point though is that the EU have inspectors in place to control all this and that is what the US want to see gone. This was trashed out a few times now here in Switzerland, because we rely almost 100% on the EU inspectorate to monitor producers and production facilities on our behalf. Hence although we are not in either the customs union nor the single market, we require 100% compliance with EU standards in respect of food.

Jim2007

RobMc59 wrote: »

I saw a tin of sliced beef in gravy in a shop last week which looked lovely in the picture -I read the label which said:"beef from Romanian EU beef"which put me off-i know it's silly as it has to meet the required standards but it just didnt appeal to me.

That is your choice as a consumer, but if the US got it's way it's a choice you would not have because removing the source of origin is something they want to achieve.

Blowfish

Leroy42 wrote: »

I'm not sure that is correct. Whilst they will no longer be part of the EU come 30th, the transition period is designed such that any and all current trade deals are carried over as if they were. Of course, not signing the WA means not transition, and this crash out.

The EU has no ability legally to carry over the trade agreements during a transition even if it wanted to. The agreements are solely between the third countries and the EU, once As the UK will no longer be a member at the end of March, the trade agreements end immediately as no matter what the UK and EU agree, they can't unilaterally change who the trade agreements apply to.

Capt'n Midnight

prawnsambo wrote: »

On the other hand, the money that would have come from EU cohesion funds over the same (or similar period) would amount to over £13 billion.

The €1.6Bn bribe doesn't sound so good when it amounts to 2% of local authority spending.

Or it's two weeks of the £800m a week HMG is down by because of missing growth since the referendum compared.


Bet May wished she still had the magic money tree

RobMc59

Jim2007 wrote: »

That is your choice as a consumer, but if the US got it's way it's a choice you would not have because removing the source of origin is something they want to achieve.

Personally I prefer British or Irish beef as they are subject to stringent quality control i believe -the horror stories of US beef is very worrying.

Capt'n Midnight

The UK space industry represents €12B in business and about 40,000 UK jobs, all of which are at risk with Brexit.

"Post Brexit, no CEO will consider the UK a location to put a space company."

Will Marshall's Planet company operates the world's largest satellite imaging network, with 150 spacecraft able to fully picture Earth on a daily basis.

The point here is that even if the UK leaves the EU and remain in the ESA their role will be diminished. Like the car factories satellites made in the UK use a lot of EU imports. France, Italy and Germany will be anxious to squeeze the UK out as much as they can.

ancapailldorcha

Jim2007 wrote: »

That is your choice as a consumer, but if the US got it's way it's a choice you would not have because removing the source of origin is something they want to achieve.

This is what I think people don't realise. A lot seem to think that they'll be able to discern the country of origin from the packaging and choose accordingly. There's no way these US food companies aren't going to lobby hard to forestall this.

Water John

Why is the Independent article mentioning Greek beef, AFAIK it had Argentinian Striploin Beef on the label.
https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/ifa-scrutanises-supervalus-argentinian-striploin-steak/

Ok got it, two different stores, two issues. I've no problem with Greek beef but Argentina, no thanks.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is what I think people don't realise. A lot seem to think that they'll be able to discern the country of origin from the packaging and choose accordingly. There's no way these US food companies aren't going to lobby hard to forestall this.

It's very worrying although I would like to think that British supermarket chains would insist on total traceability as they do now.
To be fair to the US,their chemical packaging regulations are more stringent than ours-we use a lot of US manufactured chemicals where I work and the potential hazards and properties of the drum contents are meticulously displayed.

J Mysterio

Apparently Macron had a letter 'to European citizens' published in national newspapers of the 27 EU member states today.

Basic thrust of this seems to be that Brexit should be the catalyst for reform and modernisation of EU but also trumpets defence, both traditional - i.e. EU army - but also for democratic institutions RE digital/social media threats and influence of foreign money.

“Never, since the second world war, has Europe been so essential,” Macron wrote. “Yet never has Europe been in so much danger.”

He cited the Brexit referendum result as the symbol of Europe’s crisis, an example of how people could turn away from the EU if it is just seen as a “soulless market” rather than “a historic success, the reconciliation of a devastated continent in an unprecedented project of peace, prosperity and freedom.”

He said Brexit symbolised a crisis in which Europe was seen as failing to respond “to its peoples’ needs for protection from the major shocks of the modern world.” He also warned, however, against lies and “irresponsibility”.

“Who told the British people the truth about their post-Brexit future?” he asked. “Who spoke to them about losing access to the European market? Who mentioned the risks to peace in Ireland of restoring the former border? Nationalist retrenchment offers nothing. It is rejection without an alternative. And this trap threatens the whole of Europe. The anger-mongers, backed by fake news, promise anything and everything.

Macron later said: “The Brexit impasse is a lesson for us all”. 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/04/eu-must-learn-from-brexit-and-reform-says-emmanuel-macron

I believe most analysts would be of the view that the UK would most likely seek to rejoin the EU down the line (Macron is), but the irony is that it will be a much different EU that will have been allowed develop in such a way precisely by the UK's absence.

This is why there has always been the powerful argument that the UK would have done best by changing the EU from within, rather than trying to change its sutation from without. Macron is vocally calling for reform now, but with new bits too - bits the UK don't like. I suspect Germany is an enthusiastic albeit more silent partner to France.

So, for the UK, they would potentially have to accept the Euro, Schengen, EU common defence, etc. etc. For France, Germany, Netherlands etc., they are very happy to finally be able to push these more federalist policies.

VinLieger

RobMc59 wrote: »

It's very worrying although I would like to think that British supermarket chains would insist on total traceability as they do now.

US farmers wont agree to it, theres no if ands or buts its not going to happen, maybe British farmers will still do it but once US meat hits the shelves they will have to drop standards to keep competitive and then wont want their names on the product anymore. See how it works?

Kermit.de.frog

J Mysterio wrote: »

So, for the UK, they would potentially have to accept the Euro, Schengen, EU common defence, etc. etc. For France, Germany, Netherlands etc., they are very happy to finally be able to push these more federalist policies.

This is why Irish people need to ask themselves and consider very carefully whether this is the direction they want their country to go.

Like it or not there are choices coming in the years ahead about where Ireland should be.

A sovereign country or not a sovereign country.

We can only go on for so much longer pretending this country is independent and charts it's own destiny.

But maybe a federal Europe is what Irish people want at the end of the day - or at the least they wouldn't mind it.

J Mysterio

Letter from Macron in full on Irish Times

oscarBravo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

This is why Irish people need to ask themselves and consider very carefully whether this is the direction they want their country to go.

Like it or not there are choices coming in the years ahead about where Ireland should be.

A sovereign country or not a sovereign country.

This tired rhetoric has been trotted out at every. single. EU referendum campaign. Do you not find it exhausting being so consistently wrong in your every prediction about how the EU is going to shaft us?

Kermit.de.frog

oscarBravo wrote: »

This tired rhetoric has been trotted out at every. single. EU referendum campaign. Do you not find it exhausting being so consistently wrong in your every prediction about how the EU is going to shaft us?

I haven't said the EU are going to shaft us?


I said we need to decide whether we are going to be part of a federal Europe or not.


I haven't articulated a judgement either way.

Mr.Nice Guy

I enjoyed Peter Foster, one of the best British commentators on Brexit, trying to explain some of the Brexiter delusions to the Conservative Anne-Marie Trevelyan on the BBC Politics show. The absolute state of her technology waffle here: "It's using existing technology. It's using software that works across borders, you know, in terms of live animals...it's energy, there's a lot of it across that border..."

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1102557042823319552


And here's an interesting talk with Sir Ivan Rogers, former UK Ambassador to the EU, in conversation with the the Institute for Government.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMTSJ8_hMRM

Some interesting quotes:

"These fantasies of release and liberation - they are fantasies. We are going to be negotiating on everything for evermore with our biggest neighbour.”

On a managed 'no deal' - ""They'd say, 'Very best of luck with that. We're not negotiating an FTA with you until you come back with the full money and an agreement on the backstop.' I can guarantee you that would happen on the following morning."

FrancieBrady

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I haven't said the EU are going to shaft us?


I said we need to decide whether we are going to be part of a federal Europe or not.


I haven't articulated a judgement either way.

I'd prefer to be fully sovereign but realise that isn't remotely possible or advisable in the modern world. In light of that I would prefer to be part of an EU alliance than a UK/US one, which seems to be the emerging choice.
I understand that the US could do a volte face on that with the UK isolated and build relationships with the much stronger EU.

Leroy42

Its not a simple choice. I think many in Ireland realise that whilst sovereignty sounds great, what does it really mean it the global world of today? If a country like the UK cannot get everything it wants then what hope is there for most countries.

With the advent of the internet, FB, Amazon etc, even the very nature of a sovereign country is being questioned. Does anybody think any country, apart from NK, can really be an island in terms of other countries? Ireland will never be a true sovereign country in the sense that the Brexiteers seem to understand. We will always require outside relationships. Be that in terms of companies moving here, us moving over there, security or whatever.

Companies such as Apple and Amazon can basically tell countries what they want. Hedge funds can destroy a countries currency for no other reason that to make a profit.