Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

prawnsambo

janfebmar wrote: »

Not really. She knows most of the hundreds of thousands of people who served in the army or police in the North acted lawfully and properly, despite much intimidation and sometimes seeing their comrades blown up etc. As the Irish Times said "The IRA killed 1,696 people, the British army 299 and the RUC 56. In fact the IRA killed more Catholics than any of the Loyalist terror groups". She did not dismiss the murder of catholics completely. In fact her government spent £200 million on the last Bloody Sunday investigation. How much was spent investigating the murder of the two police officers (one Catholic and one Protestant) who were murdered in Derry just 3 days before Bloody Sunday? Now that was pre-meditated and planned murder, but not a mention of it or hundreds of other atrocities now.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but are you justifying the killing of innocent civilians by the crown armed forces by comparing it with atrocities carried out by terrorists?

janfebmar

Leroy42 wrote: »

The Eu has already agreed to a deal, .

It is not a deal when both sides are not happy. The deal is clearly unfair to the smaller party (the UK), it is being bullied. In that case, no deal is better than a bad deal.

janfebmar

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, but are you justifying the killing of innocent civilians by the crown armed forces by comparing it with atrocities carried out by terrorists?

Neither is justifiable. Everyone has the right to life. Even the people killed by the Gardai and army here in this state had a right to life.

prawnsambo

janfebmar wrote: »

Neither is justifiable. Everyone has the right to life. Even the people killed by the Gardai and army here in this state had a right to life.

So what are you saying then? Because it sounded like you were saying that the killings by crown armed forces aren't answerable to the law.

Seth Brundle

janfebmar wrote: »

It is not a deal when both sides are not happy. The deal is clearly unfair to the smaller party (the UK), it is being bullied. In that case, no deal is better than a bad deal.

In what way is not unfair?
Teresa May thinks it is fair!

janfebmar

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Teresa May thinks it is fair!

Why do you think she is in Brussels again so?

prawnsambo wrote: »

Because it sounded like you were saying that the killings by crown armed forces aren't answerable to the law.

Rubbish. All killings were and are and should be answerable to the law. Do you not think the murder of the 2 policemen in Derry just 3 days before Bloody Sunday should be investigated as well as Bloody Sunday?

Zubeneschamali

janfebmar wrote: »

If the EU does not agree to a deal, it will be erecting a hard border this side of the border. Nobody in these islands wants a hard border.

The EU already agreed a deal with May.


But Westminster MPs won't ratify it because it is worse than EU membership.


Now all they have to do is realize that all possible Brexit deals and especially No Deal are all worse than EU membership, and cancel the whole farce.

Zubeneschamali

janfebmar wrote: »

Why do you think she is in Brussels again so?

She is timewasting until the last possible minute, so that she can present the HoC with voting for Her Deal or No Deal when there is absolutely no time left for anything else. This is all she has been doing since the deal was defeated in the HoC last time.

VinLieger

janfebmar wrote: »

It is not a deal when both sides are not happy. The deal is clearly unfair to the smaller party (the UK), it is being bullied. In that case, no deal is better than a bad deal.

That's how international trade deals work, if they aren't happy with the EU being pretty easy going they are going to shocked when they have to deal with what happens when they want a trade deal from China and America.

Also how is it unfair when the thing they have a problem with was proposed by them in the first place?

CelticRambler

janfebmar wrote: »

It is not a deal when both sides are not happy. The deal is clearly unfair to the smaller party (the UK), it is being bullied. In that case, no deal is better than a bad deal.

Why, then, did TM bring it back from Brussels and ask the HoC to ratify it (three four times)?

ilovesmybrick

janfebmar wrote: »

Rubbish. All killings were and are and should be answerable to the law. Do you not think the murder of the 2 policemen in Derry just 3 days before Bloody Sunday should be investigated as well as Bloody Sunday?

You are comparing the actions of terrorists and criminals to the actions of state actors. Do you really not see why it is important to hold the actions of the state and arms of the state to a much, much higher standard than those that break the law???

Charles Babbage

Leroy42 wrote: »

The DUP are more than happy with a hard border, as are the ERG. Given the choice, both have stated over and over again that they will take a crash out (and thus a border) over the current deal.

The DUP yes, not so much the ERG. The ERG would be happiest with an Irish Sea border, they know the NI one is unenforceable and a major political issue in the US etc, and so it is an obstacle to their plans. The ERG are using the issue to prevent a deal, when they ger this they'll subsequently not care what happens NI.

J Mysterio

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

‘I very much want to be out of Europe’

The cognitive dissonance of some people is beyond belief.

This is the bit that really gets me.

Looking out five years, do you think your business or industry will have changed as a result of Brexit?

Not really. I honestly believe there will be a free trade agreement between Europe and the UK. It’s in as much Europe’s interest – even more so – to have a deal with us as it is for us to have a deal with Europe.

Seth Brundle

janfebmar wrote: »

Why do you think she is in Brussels again so?

She is trying to renegotiate something she has already agreed.
She is effectively lying to the HoC telling the MPs how she will renegotiate the agreement that she already agreed, the agreement that is no longer open for negotiation as long as she holds firmly onto her stupid red lines.


Anyhow, you've not told us how the deal is unfair or how the UK is being bullied...

janfebmar wrote: »

The deal is clearly unfair to the smaller party (the UK), it is being bullied.

Seth Brundle

There was a Brexit HoC Vote flowchart floating around recently but I think this one is a little more comprehensive (click for a larger image)...

Leroy42

janfebmar wrote: »

It is not a deal when both sides are not happy. The deal is clearly unfair to the smaller party (the UK), it is being bullied. In that case, no deal is better than a bad deal.

Very true that a deal needs both dies to agree, the rest of your statement is nonsense. Both sides needed to negotiate with each other, not the entire country. The UK sent TM and her team over and their representatives, and the EU did like wise with Barnier.

Between the two, they agreed a deal, a deal TM has asked the HoC to accept, and stated on a number of occasions is not only the only deal, but also a good deal.

The HoC, as is their right, rejected the deal and TM agreed to go back to the EU to try again. But the EU are under no obligation to loose out, the UK should be looking to get what they want but offer something in return.

We have heard all about what the UK what changed, but nothing in terms of what they will be willing to accept to get that change.

And because the deal was agreed in principle, it becomes the basis for any talks. Many in the UK seem to think that they simply start again, as if the deal was never negotiated.

It is the UK, very clearly, that is trying to bully the EU. From Camerons demand for changes to the treaty for the UK only or they would hold a ref, to now demanding that the EU change it own rules because the UK doesn't like the reality of life outside of the EU.

They have threatened the EU citizens living in the UK, they have threatened Ireland, they have continually claimed that the EU needs the UK more than the other way around. How is none of that trying to bully the EU?

Zubeneschamali

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Anyhow, you've not told us how the deal is unfair or how the UK is being bullied...

Oh, I think that poster has told us this many times before their March reg date.

Zubeneschamali

SNIP. No more nonsense please.

Leroy42

janfebmar wrote: »

Why do you think she is in Brussels again so?

To waste time. Why do you think she is there? It is clearly not for the reasons (reopen the WA) that she told the house.

Seth Brundle

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Oh, I think that poster has told us this many times before their March reg date.

...and they still don't understand the ramifications of the original vote!

prawnsambo

janfebmar wrote: »

Rubbish. All killings were and are and should be answerable to the law. Do you not think the murder of the 2 policemen in Derry just 3 days before Bloody Sunday should be investigated as well as Bloody Sunday?

Are you saying it wasn't investigated by the crown?

Adamcp898

I see Jeremy Hunt has been shovelling blame on the EU this morning as well, most likely acting as hypeman for the Grimsby show later. I daresay Cox & Barclay will get a half day in Brussels today.

"We want to remain the best of friends with the EU. That means getting this agreement through in a way that doesn't inject poison into our relations for many years to come.

"That's what the UK has said we want to do, it's what most people in the UK want and feel very strongly about.

"But it does need the EU also to be flexible in these negotiations and understand that we now have a very, very clear ask.

"We know what it would take to get a deal through the House of Commons, and that is for a significant change to allow the Attorney General to change his advice to the government and say we couldn't be trapped in a customs union forever.

"That's not an unreasonable thing to ask and we have made, I think, some progress in the last few days. There's a bit more to make. It's entirely possible to get there.

"And frankly I think future generations, if this ends in acrimony, will say that the EU got this moment wrong. And I really hope they don't."

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0308/1035069-brexit/

Indestructable

Cox scrapped plans to go to Brussels today. Looks like it's all fallen apart, what a surprise.

Panrich

Adamcp898 wrote: »

I see Jeremy Hunt has been shovelling blame on the EU this morning as well, most likely acting as hypeman for the Grimsby show later. I daresay Cox & Barclay will get a half day in Brussels today.




https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0308/1035069-brexit/

And still not a murmer about relaxing a few red lines on their side to get this over the line. The media are complicit by allowing these poloiticians to spout this nonsense with impunity.

Hurrache

Adamcp898 wrote: »

I see Jeremy Hunt has been shovelling blame on the EU this morning as well, most likely acting as hypeman for the Grimsby show later. I daresay Cox & Barclay will get a half day in Brussels today.

Yes, as I said last night the tactic of blaming the EU is well and truly under way.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1103922602001612801

Akrasia

janfebmar wrote: »

It is not a deal when both sides are not happy. The deal is clearly unfair to the smaller party (the UK), it is being bullied. In that case, no deal is better than a bad deal.

Clearly unfair?

What planet are you living on? One of the main benefits of being part of a customs union and a trading bloc is that the members get to exercise collective bargaining and get better terms than they would if they were negotiating on their own.

In this case, the UK chose unilaterally to leave a block of 512 million people and is now trying to negotiate access to the EU markets on the basis of being a 'third country' of 60 million people.

The smaller less powerful negotiator always has to make more concessions to gain access to the larger market.

If the UK had something really valuable to trade that the EU really needed, then they might have some chance, but at the moment, all they have to go on is 'We buy lots of your cars'

And the EU has been extraordinarily generous to the UK in these negotiations. They have gotten what they asked for, the problem is that they are now trying to push for changes to that agreement that fundamentally damage the interests of an EU member state. They don't get to be outside the union pushing for preferential treatment to other members of the EU.

Adamcp898

Indestructable wrote: »

Cox scrapped plans to go to Brussels today. Looks like it's all fallen apart, what a surprise.

Funny, the lack of detail from Cox yesterday combined with vaguely stating the talks would continue "almost certainly, through the weekend" never made it sound the most promising. Of course, the EU wasn't full of hope either; this quote was in a FT article yesterday:

....

Mr Barnier presented the UK side with counter proposals, asking London to respond to by Friday, when Mr Cox and Stephen Barclay, Brexit secretary, are expected to return to Brussels.

“They are a new team who are looking for fresh ideas,” said one official handling Brexit for an EU member state. “We all know the ideas aren’t fresh and won’t fly. But we maybe have to go through the motions.”

https://www.ft.com/content/f10bcf8a-40d7-11e9-9bee-efab61506f44

Professor Moriarty

Let's see. It's an ungrateful Ireland's fault for being obstinate and not allowing the EU to ditch the backstop. The backstop impinges on the rights of NI citizens. The backstop contravenes the GFA. The unelected bureaucrats don't understand politics. Macron and Merkel hate Britian and are twisting the knife. Barnier doesn't know what he's doing. Okay got that.

boggerman1

Hurrache wrote: »

Yes, as I said last night the tactic of blaming the EU is well and truly under way.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1103922602001612801

It was always going to end this way.i think all along the Tories were hoping that the EU would walk away from the "talks" so that their backers in the media could run with headlines to the uneducated masses to lap up.

FrancieBrady

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The backstop impinges on the rights of NI citizens. The backstop contravenes the GFA.

What happened with Trimble's case? Is that still in motion?