Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Leroy42

gimli2112 wrote: »

no I just read it here, maybe I misunderstood

She didn't vote against the deal, or at least I am not aware that she did, but she did vote for and whip for the Brady amendment which called for the WA to be reopened and alternative arrangements to be put in place of the backstop.

Since the WA includes the backstop, whilst not directly voting against her deal, she pushed hard to get the HoC to pass that it should be changed in the most important part,

blanch152

Laois_Man wrote: »

Some of the comments at the bottom of that article are irritating - in particular those advising us to go read the GFA and we'll see it doesn't mention there being no border and therefore, creating a border isn't in breach of it. I think they need to read it themselves - the bit that talks about "the removal of security installations"

Perhaps they think it was a remarkable coincidence that the hard border vanished in the late 1990's

The removal of the hard border was linked both to the GFA and to the creation of the Single Market and the Customs Union. You could argue both complemented each other.

The legal argument being put forward, and it is an interesting one, is that the GFA in and of itself does not require no border. Whether that legal argument would succeed is a different question.

Leroy42

I totally get the no MP wants that job, but that doesn't stop the media, the people, fro questioning her.

Even the likes of Davis and Raab continually come out and lay the blame of the EU, yet they are seldom asked why the cabinet allowed themselves to be played like this. By using the line that the EU are bullying the UK, they are saying that they allowed themselves to be bullied, that they didn't stand up for the UK.

Yet nothing is ever said. A simple "You failed in the one job you were given, why should we listen to anything you have to say now?" would be a start. Or "so you blame TM for pushing you aside, surely you need to force her out?"

Leroy42

blanch152 wrote: »

The legal argument being put forward, and it is an interesting one, is that the GFA in and of itself does not require no border. Whether that legal argument would succeed is a different question.

Its probably something they should have thought of before A50!

black forest

As TM and others are pitching up the blame game they should better have a look at home.

The Institute for Government, a well known think tank, just published a 70 page paper looking at the UK Home Office and it´s ability to manage immigration post Brexit. It comes to the conclusion that there have to be massive improvements not only in funding but in the organizations structure as well. In short, the Home Office is not fit for it´s job.

https://twitter.com/jl_owen/status/1103916195462307841?s=21

Ministers don’t know what they are trying to achieve. They can agree high level political rhetoric. But have failed to outline realistic objectives - for almost a decade

Then there is the issue of funding.

Firstly the Home Office fees are extortionate in comparison to many other countries. Why? Department wants immigration to be self funding.

But it’s a debate that’s never really been had.

We also look at scrutiny of immigration rules.

Theresa May as Home Secretary managed to:
Reduce non-EU migration by 100,000, increase some fees by 500%, prevent 40% of British wage earners from bringing spouse from overseas  

All without needing a vote in Parliament. Mad.

Write ups in the media connected to this paper:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/08/brexit-home-office-should-lose-its-immigration-duties?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/immigration-policy-removed-home-office-brexit-a8812736.html

The full text:
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/publications/managing-migration-after-brexit

So TM already created a hostile environment for all foreigners. Not only by raising the costs to unreasonable heights but making it extremely difficult to get spouses and children into the country. Of course that’s a wanted result which leaves humanity wide behind. Wonder who will pick up field fruits the coming years.

Aah, i forgot, after a No deal exit there will be no farming left anyway. :rolleyes:

Professor Moriarty

I'm not Úna Mullally's biggest fan, but I think this piece from an article in The Guardian captures the deterioration in the British (English) and Irish relationship.

Every clanger from a British politician – Karen Bradley’s offensive and ignorant statement exonerating British soldiers for their crimes in Northern Ireland; the border mess, exacerbated by the Conservative government’s tactical alliance with the DUP; the clueless remarks emanating from the House of Commons – has not just confirmed, but elevated our suspicions that English (and Brexit was always about Englishness, not Britishness, nor the oxymoron that is now the “United” Kingdom) apathy, ignorance and entitlement towards Ireland is as dominant as ever.

Hurrache

black forest wrote: »

Aah, i forgot, after a No deal exit there will be no farming left anyway. :rolleyes:

Not according to May just there in her speech, she said that CAP was not good for many farmers in the UK, implying that post Brexit they'll be in a better place.

Laois_Man

The very close 2016 referendum can't be re-ran - that would be undemocratic

But the HoC vote in January where Teresa may suffered the biggest ever defeat by a UK government is being re-run next week

Not hypocritical at all is it?

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

She didn't vote against the deal, or at least I am not aware that she did, but she did vote for and whip for the Brady amendment which called for the WA to be reopened and alternative arrangements to be put in place of the backstop.

So she voted for a motion to change the deal.


Sounds like a vote against the deal on the table to me.

10000maniacs

Classic stare off between the brilliant Will Self and Mark Francois on Politics Now today. Has to be seen to be appreciated. LOL.
Will Self made a comment that every racist and bigot voted for Brexit and Francois took it to mean that everyone who voted for Brexit is a bigot. Will and everyone else clarified it for Francois and the pair of them has a prolonged staring contest. Entertainment at its best.

Hurrache

Laois_Man wrote: »

The very close 2016 referendum can't be re-ran - that would be undemocratic

But the HoC vote in January where Teresa may suffered the biggest ever defeat by a UK government is being re-run next week

Not hypocritical at all is it?

Nor apparently is the fact that she negotiated and agreed to a deal with the EU, which she has been trying to renegotiate and change ever since.

Joe_ Public

10000maniacs wrote: »

Classic stare off between the brilliant Will Self and Mark Francois on Politics Now today. Has to be seen to be appreciated. LOL.
Will Self made a comment that every racist and bigot voted for Brexit and Francois took it to mean that everyone who voted for Brexit is a bigot. Will and everyone else clarified it for Francois and the pair of them has a prolonged staring contest. Entertainment at its best.

Fantastic. What an utter buffoon that tory guy was/is. Self is an arrogant nob really but that was just great, easy pickings for him to be fair.

Kermit.de.frog

10000maniacs wrote: »

Classic stare off between the brilliant Will Self and Mark Francois on Politics Now today. Has to be seen to be appreciated. LOL.
Will Self made a comment that every racist and bigot voted for Brexit and Francois took it to mean that everyone who voted for Brexit is a bigot. Will and everyone else clarified it for Francois and the pair of them has a prolonged staring contest. Entertainment at its best.

Any video?

What station was it on?

SNIP. No more insults please.

10000maniacs

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Fantastic. What an utter buffoon that tory guy was/is. Self is an arrogant nob really but that was just great, easy pickings for him to be fair.

I think the BBC bring in the low hanging Tory buffoons like Francois and Bridgen just for entertainment like this.
I didn't tape it Kermit. It will probably appear eventually.

Sam Russell

gooch2k9 wrote: »

May is to address her speech to the EU today. One of the few times her speeches have been targeted towards the other side in the negotiations. Probably the most significant time it shouldn't be.


Two and a half years since the referendum and she still doesn't know how to negotiate with the EU. Three weeks out and her man Cox(unelected bureaucrat) is proposing that the EU 'be reasonable'.


Also a pity the DUP won't be decimated at the next elections for going against the clear wishes of the NI population.

He is a Tory MP.

Kalyke

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Any video?

What station was it on?

Francois is on the far idiot wing of the ERG.

He may be, but he has read the WA, which he reiterates ad naseum during EVERY flipping interview he gives!

The stare off..

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1104006646395633667

Joe_ Public

10000maniacs wrote: »

I think the BBC bring in the low hanging Tory buffoons like Francois and Bridgen just for entertainment like this.
I didn't tape it Kermit. It will probably appear eventually.

Also a good exchange earlier between that young comedian and the tory over 2nd referendum issue. Problem with bbc is these guys get an all too easy ride unless you get a contrarian like self to take them on. Been a while since I’ve seen him on a beeb panel actually, hope it becomes a regular thing again.

Headshot

Kalyke wrote: »

He may be, but he has read the WA, which he reiterates ad naseum during EVERY flipping interview he gives!

The stare off..

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1104006646395633667

****ing hell that stare at the end wow

Leroy42

"You called 17.4 million Racists and bigots because they voted to leave the EU"
"That's not what I said"
"That pretty close to what you said"

That sums up Francois. How he ever manages to get dressed in the morning never mind actually get people to vote for him is beyond me. If the guy can't even debate on things that were said 2 seconds before, how can anyone expect him to be able to debate Brexit.

charlie14

Leroy42 wrote: »

"You called 17.4 million Racists and bigots because they voted to leave the EU"
"That's not what I said"
"That pretty close to what you said"

That sums up Francois. How he ever manages to get dressed in the morning never mind actually get people to vote for him is beyond me. If the guy can't even debate on things that were said 2 seconds before, how can anyone expect him to be able to debate Brexit.

No more than the old political trick of addressing what you wished had been said, rather than what actually was said and hoping in the mind of the voter it sticks.
Pretty much par for the Brexiters playbook .

jmayo

VinLieger wrote: »

I wouldn't rely on the question time audience as a barometer, apparently the producer in charge of picking the audience whose name is allison fuller pedley has some UKIP and Britain First connections, the suspicion is she has been heavily stacking the seats with pro brexit people.

Ahh that explains it.

I always wondered how come there were so many gungho pro Brexit, leave in the morning make Britain great again, people in the audiences.

And here was me thinking they were a lot of thickos in Britain, much like a lot of their politicians.

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

‘I very much want to be out of Europe’

The cognitive dissonance of some people is beyond belief.



We have a large fishing fleet, so why can't we have a large presence for blinds and curtains? It's not like comparing apples and oranges, it's comparing fish with fabric!

Ahh Kilkeel.
Enough said.

janfebmar wrote: »

It is not a deal when both sides are not happy. The deal is clearly unfair to the smaller party (the UK), it is being bullied. In that case, no deal is better than a bad deal.

Right so lets tear up the old Anglo Irish Treaty then.


Funny how the Brits who foisted more actual unfair deals on peoples all around the world are now complaining about unfair deals.
Even when it is there own deal.

Fecking hell next thing you, like May, will be telling us is that someone wants to split the country.
Another thing the Brits never engaged in anywhere. :rolleyes:

BTW I take it you have never been divorced nor have had any friends/family divorced.

Leroy42

TM has said in her Grimsby speech that failure to vote for her deal (the one her cabinet and herself are saying the EU must give concessions on because it is no good) could result in Brexit being lost and the UK never leaving.

Well, I'm no top negotiator, but if you are Barnier and TM is claiming that doing nothing on the deal would result in the UK staying in the EU wouldn't that solve the EU's problem? Why would they offer anything?

It madness, on the one hand clearly TM is asking the EU for help and on the other she is telling them that the outcome they really want (EU to remain as it is) can be possibly achieved by doing nothing!

20silkcut

SNIP. No more quips please.

Seth Brundle

Leroy42 wrote: »

TM has said in her Grimsby speech that failure to vote for her deal (the one her cabinet and herself are saying the EU must give concessions on because it is no good) could result in Brexit being lost and the UK never leaving.

TM on stage in grimsby (trying to scare everyone into accepting her deal)...

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1104004515559178240

Seth Brundle

More Mark Francois on Politics Live...

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1103998192859799552



Incidentally, he is ignoring his ERG compadre JRM who supported a second referendum.

j8wk2feszrnpao

I've suspected that a no-deal Brexit was the likely outcome for some time and the incompetence on the British side continues to increase my suspicions. Scaremongering tactics now by May towards MPs to vote for her deal .............. politically the UK is a mess.

It's going to interesting to see how Brexiteers react when they leave the EU, and actually have to look at themselves for blame/fault rather than Brussels for their issues.

Hurrache

Leo unimpressed with May's pleas for the EU to offer up something
https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1104021621550039040

lawred2

Seth Brundle wrote: »

More Mark Francois on Politics Live...

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1103998192859799552



Incidentally, he is ignoring his ERG compadre JRM who supported a second referendum.

Love how he thought he was rebutting her with his "you could say the same for a general election" statement... effectively making her point for her

Kermit.de.frog

Hurrache wrote: »

Leo unimpressed with May's pleas for the EU to offer up something
https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1104021621550039040

Is he offering changes to the WA in return for something?


The WA is suppose to be closed.

Hurrache

He never mentioned the WA in fairness.