Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Laois_Man

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I got that push notification and it clearly said exit the Customs Union, no mention of the backstop.

What’s the difference. If all of the UK were to exit the Customs Union, they’re also exiting the backstop!

Lemming

Roanmore wrote: »

Cool the jets I was talking about blaming the EU for knife crime

I can't recall the specifics now, but her "logic" was an exceptionally twisted argument. Like someone has managed to bend the number 1 out of shape to try and argue it's really a 4; that sort of twisted. Tied to all sorts; immigration, economics etc., and then trying to warp it to fit the current topic which was somewhere between knife crime & the state of young people's resourcing & education today. It was so farcical as to be wildly obvious - like Russian "little green men" in the Ukraine obvious. Yet at every point her argument failed to account for the twin points of every claim listed was the decision making of British ministers, and that the EU does not - and never has done - set domestic agenda. Quite literally blame the EU for everything successive national politics has inflicted locally.

Spanish Eyes

Well reading things today, it seems that Andrea Leadsom is full on for blaming the EU for being so intransigent. Just paraphrasing here.

So the die is cast now, as many on here prophesised from the beginning.

UK is great, EU is bad. And although I wish it weren't so, it will filter into the minds of many that the EU is the bully. But then again, people like Leadsom are relying on the fact that many do not get politics in UK much, and rely on the MSM and people like her to justify their stance on this utter debacle.

Lemming

To be frank, they can play the blame game as much as they want; it wont change a thing, save to make them look even more impotent on the world stage. Imagine the tears and wailing that will be put forth with any negotiations with the likes of the US, Japan, China, or Mercursor who are all quite simply sharpening knives.Well, perhaps not China as they aren't even bothered.

Domestically, there's only so far you can carry the blame game before the electorate starts to ask why [insert-topic] is still sh1t and starts to see through the lies or simply doesn't care any more and just want whatever it is resolved. In the case of the last scenario there, that means coming full circle and having to face the very people you lied about in the first place and then explain to the electorate why you suddenly agreed to what you didn't agree to last time. Not a scenario conducive to political survival really.

Fr Tod Umptious

Laois_Man wrote: »

What’s the difference. If all of the UK were to exit the Customs Union, they’re also exiting the backstop!

Exiting the Customs Union unilaterally and exiting the backstop unilaterally ate two very very different things.

lawred2

They can blame all they like. It's their economy. It's their wealth. It's their rights. It's their freedoms.

No one but themselves decided to have a referendum.

So they can live with it.

lawred2

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Exiting the Customs Union unilaterally and exiting the backstop unilaterally ate two very very different things.

Presume GB can exit the customs Union but NI will still be within the constraints of the backstop?

Be funny if Westminster voted for that at this stage

Spanish Eyes

The saddest thing is, that if they decide to exit with No Deal, not only are UK going to suffer, but many other countries too. Be that Customs/Immigration, or NI Border issues.

That arrogance may just work. Sadly.

But I do hope something will work out for everyone's benefit. A compromise if you like. But it seems that UK are the only people looking for a compromise from EU. If that wasn't laughable it might have worked earlier.

I don't think anyone wants a cold hard Brexit. That is the only thing that keeps me thinking positively now.

listermint

Roanmore wrote: »

Cool the jets I was talking about blaming the EU for knife crime

Apologies you can understand how it appeared to be framed. Hence my response

marno21

Congressman Brendan Boyle has a piece in the FT today about the threat of a no deal Brexit in relation to the NI border:

https://www.ft.com/content/e8d12d06-41c7-11e9-9499-290979c9807a

It's obviously paywalled but this issue is clearly not passing them by:

This bipartisan support demonstrates that an insurance policy or safety net to ensure that there is no hard border is absolutely critical for Brexit. The seamless border protects the all-Ireland economy and reinforces the peace deal. Peace is not a given. It must be constantly upheld and cannot be taken for granted.

Over the years, America has consistently reaffirmed its commitment to help create a strong and peaceful society in Northern Ireland. Our continued involvement is critical for maintaining that peace. It is also critical that my fellow congressmen continue their support for peace throughout the island, and that our friends across the Atlantic take note. When our allies succeed we all succeed.

RobMc59

marno21 wrote: »

Congressman Brendan Boyle has a piece in the FT today about the threat of a no deal Brexit in relation to the NI border:

https://www.ft.com/content/e8d12d06-41c7-11e9-9499-290979c9807a

It's obviously paywalled but this issue is clearly not passing them by:

The congressman for Philidelphia which was the home of the Delawere Indians who were systematically subjugated and robbed of their lands by the Americans(sound a bit familiar?)should get his own house in order before pontificating about what other countries should do.

johnnyskeleton

RobMc59 wrote: »

The congressman for Philidelphia which was the home of the Delawere Indians who were systematically subjugated and robbed of their lands by the Americans(sound a bit familiar?)should get his own house in order before pontificating about what other countries should do.

Mod note:

The topic is brexit. The post you were replying to was an article from a US Congressman detailing a US Democrat view of Brexit. Please address that, instead of whataboutery!

woohoo!!!

It's a good reminder that a large cohort of normal people blame the EU for all sorts for decades. Quite frankly they are not our priority and nothing the EU will do will ever satisfy them. UK politicians have been happy to play the blame the EU game to their advantage for decades. Their problem, they can deal with the fallout. We must protect our interests.

woohoo!!!

Mod: There's a specific warning in the OP about name calling. Cut it out please.

ancapailldorcha

lawred2 wrote: »

They can blame all they like. It's their economy. It's their wealth. It's their rights. It's their freedoms.

No one but themselves decided to have a referendum.

So they can live with it.

Except that the party who called the referendum had a mandate from 36.9% of voters. That's hardly representative of the whole country given that 2 of 3 voters didn't vote Tory. If you chuck in the 12.6% UKIP vote you still fall short of 50%.

And now the class that's relatively well looked after has voted for another measure of pulling up the ladder while millennials and those who follow them will be stuck with McJobs, the loss of the ability to live and work in 27 other countries and reams of housing they'll never be able to afford simply because older voters have a Brobdingnagian level of ignorance about how the EU works or what its supposed to do.

Strazdas

Lemming wrote: »

To be frank, they can play the blame game as much as they want; it wont change a thing, save to make them look even more impotent on the world stage. Imagine the tears and wailing that will be put forth with any negotiations with the likes of the US, Japan, China, or Mercursor who are all quite simply sharpening knives.Well, perhaps not China as they aren't even bothered.

Domestically, there's only so far you can carry the blame game before the electorate starts to ask why [insert-topic] is still sh1t and starts to see through the lies or simply doesn't care any more and just want whatever it is resolved. In the case of the last scenario there, that means coming full circle and having to face the very people you lied about in the first place and then explain to the electorate why you suddenly agreed to what you didn't agree to last time. Not a scenario conducive to political survival really.

The blame game is doomed to failure in fact. The whole world can see that Brexit is a shambles and that British politicians and the public have messed up. Trying to convince people that the EU and the remaining 450m EU citizens have somehow caused Brexit to be a disaster is not going to wash outside of Brexit circles.

It would be like trying to convince people that the Irish financial crash had been caused by the EU and had nothing to with Irish politicians, bankers, regulators etc.

Laois_Man

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Exiting the Customs Union unilaterally and exiting the backstop unilaterally ate two very very different things.

No, they aren't! UK exiting the customs union = UK exiting the backstop!

Sam Russell

Laois_Man wrote: »

No, they aren't! UK exiting the customs union = UK exiting the backstop!

Not so!

According to RTE News -

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0308/1035221-brexit-barnier/

The European Union is ready to give the UK the unilateral right to leave the customs union, chief negotiator Michel Barnier has said in a bid to make the Brexit deal acceptable to the UK parliament.

He stressed, however, that Britain would still need to honour its commitment to preserve a border free of controls between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

First Up

Laois_Man wrote:

No, they aren't! UK exiting the customs union = UK exiting the backstop!

Not sure how slowly this needs to be explained to you. The backstop applies to Northern Ireland only. The EU is not asking the whole UK to remain in the CU.

Laois_Man

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not so!

According to RTE News -

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0308/1035221-brexit-barnier/

The only practical way of having a backstop is having N. Ireland in the Customs Union. That has been the EU's stance all along!

First Up wrote: »

Not sure how slowly this needs to be explained to you. The backstop applies to Northern Ireland only. The EU is not asking the whole UK to remain in the CU.

Maybe you'd like to show me where I said different!

An Ciarraioch

Laois_Man wrote: »

The only practical way of having a backstop is having N. Ireland in the Customs Union. That has been the EU's stance all along!



Maybe you'd like to show me where I said different!

A mere three posts above?

Laois_Man

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

A mere three posts above?

No, the post 3 above it does not say that the EU are insistent the backstop applies to all of the UK

First Up

The EU has made it clear that the backstop need only apply to Northern Ireland. It was the UK that proposed it apply to all of the UK.

Barnier (on behalf of the 27) reminded the UK of this. The rest of the UK can leave the CU any time it likes.

Laois_Man

First Up wrote: »

The EU has made it clear that the backstop need only apply to Northern Ireland. It was the UK that proposed it apply to all of the UK.

Barnier (on behalf of the 27) reminded the UK of this. The rest of the UK can leave the CU any time it likes.

Again, nobody has said otherwise

First Up

Laois_Man wrote:

Again, nobody has said otherwise

Only you.

Laois_Man

First Up wrote: »

Only you.

Still waiting for you to show me where!

First Up

Laois_Man wrote:

Still waiting for you to show me where!

Where you said UK exiting the CU = UK exiting the backstop.

johnnyskeleton

First Up wrote: »

Only you.

Laois_Man wrote: »

Still waiting for you to show me where!

Mod note:

I think it is obvious to all concerned that Barniers comments were vague, that GB leaving the customs union would mean that the current backstop, as is, is modified, and that its clear that the unilateral exit being proposed would require an arrangement for an open border in Ireland.

Now cut out the sniping please.

First Up

Barnier's comments were anything but vague. He reminded the UK that a UK wide backstop was their idea and they are free to change it. The backstop is specific to Northern Ireland he reminded them of their obligations on that.

Laois_Man

First Up wrote: »

Where you said UK exiting the CU = UK exiting the backstop.

Yes...all of the UK (not just the GB part) exiting the CU does equal the UK exiting the backstop. I did not say that only part of the UK exiting the CU would equal the UK exiting the backstop! RTE's breaking news yesterday did not say that Barnier meant only part of the UK.

In your own arrogant words...."I'm not sure how slowly this needs to be explained to you". The context of a conversation is that I (amongst a few others) complained about the way RTE broke the news yesterday that Barnier said the UK can unilaterally withdraw from it....specifically in my case, their push notification that addressed the first bit of the following tweet, but never mentioned the rather massively important second bit...even initially when clicking on said push notification to read further details....

"EU commits to give UK the option to exit the Single Customs Territory unilaterally, while the other elements of the backstop must be maintained to avoid a hard border".