Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

prawnsambo

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You seem to have missed First Ups point. He said that if there were EU wide voting, that would give it the essence of a superstate.

I point out that we do have EU wide voting in the form of EU elections so surely that gives it the essence of a super state.

You seem to be misrepresenting First Up's post. Or maybe you don't understand it? He actually clarified it later. We don't have EU-wide voting. Each state elects its own MEPs. EU-wide voting would mean that we could vote for German MEPs etc.

ArmaniJeanss

MrMusician18 wrote: »

You seem to have missed First Ups point. He said that if there were EU wide voting, that would give it the essence of a superstate.

I point out that we do have EU wide voting in the form of EU elections so surely that gives it the essence of a super state.

Rightly or wrongly, there's a mental difference between voting between Mick and Paddy as MEPs, and voting between Hans, Mario and Gustav to be Commissioner for Agriculture.

MrMusician18

prawnsambo wrote: »

You seem to be misrepresenting First Up's post. Or maybe you don't understand it? He actually clarified it later. We don't have EU-wide voting. Each state elects its own MEPs. EU-wide voting would mean that we could vote for German MEPs etc.

I disagree with his interpretation. EU wide means all citizens get to vote for members of a common institution.

The UK doesn't elect any individual on a country wide basis and never held a vote on a national question up until the first EU referendum, yet no one would have ever suggested it was not a state before that.

First Up

prawnsambo wrote:

You seem to be misrepresenting First Up's post. Or maybe you don't understand it? He actually clarified it later. We don't have EU-wide voting. Each state elects its own MEPs. EU-wide voting would mean that we could vote for German MEPs etc.

I'd have hoped that anyone contributing to a discussion on the EU would have already grasped that important point.

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

IMO, this has been the UK's plan all along. Keep holding back and get little increments here and there such that a deal is so close as to simply wear people down and the possibility of No Deal, when things are so close, is simply too much to take and the UK gets, at least in part, what it wants.

I think it would be a massive mistake by the EU, and not solve any of the problems. It would be nothing more than kicking the can down the road.

I would be A-OK with kicking the can down the road - give them a 2 year extension, run their Euro elections, keep everything as is. Brexit might then never happen at all.

But compromising the integrity of the Single Market to suit a country that is leaving it is not kicking the can anywhere, and the EU have repeatedly said that they prefer No Deal.

I also don't think the EU should allow a 3 month extension just to smooth the UKs No Deal exit. If they think they can do it, let them try this month, they will be back with a begging bowl before the Summer.

First Up

MrMusician18 wrote:

I disagree with his interpretation. EU wide means all citizens get to vote for members of a common institution.

The limited extent of that institution's powers and where they sit alongside the role of the national parliaments, show that it is a long way short of being the basis of a super state.

Sierra Oscar

Looks like the Cabinet is meeting tonight. Deal done?

https://twitter.com/fiachkelly/status/1105166902010232833

Itssoeasy

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Looks like the Cabinet is meeting tonight. Deal done?

https://twitter.com/fiachkelly/status/1105166902010232833

Well it seem like it's not set in stone according to Gavan Reilly. It seems to be that the cabinet have been asked to not go very far in the event there needs to be a cabinet meeting tonight.

judeboy101

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Looks like the Cabinet is meeting tonight. Deal done?

https://twitter.com/fiachkelly/status/1105166902010232833

EU will move on arbitration. Cox is a cute hoor, he'll get a legal guarantee on "Reasonableness" introduced as a way to trigger unilateral arbitration review, and as its not related to EU law will bypass ECJ.

Sierra Oscar

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Well it seem like it's not set in stone according to Gavan Reilly. The cabinet have been asked to not go very far in the event there needs to be a cabinet meeting tonight.

Yeah it's hard to know what is happening. BBC are now reporting that May is seeking to delay Brexit until 24th of May.

Itssoeasy

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Yeah it's hard to know what is happening. BBC are now reporting that May is seeking to delay Brexit until 24th of May.

May 24th ? When are the european elections again ? Is it that day ?

Itssoeasy

Well it seems that something is happening whether that means anything concrete comes out of it remains to be seen.

Sierra Oscar

Itssoeasy wrote: »

May 24th ? When are the european elections again ? Is it that day ?

Yes the local and European elections are on the 24th.

BobbyBobberson

Itssoeasy wrote: »

May 24th ? When are the european elections again ? Is it that day ?

"One day after the European elections start" according to Ian Dunt

tuxy

Itssoeasy wrote: »

May 24th ? When are the european elections again ? Is it that day ?

23rd - 26th, I'm guessing it allows countries to choose a day that works best for them.

LeinsterDub

I'd not be getting too worked up. Whatever is agreed will be rejected tomorrow in the HoC

Sierra Oscar

Cabinet meeting now confirmed for 6.45pm so something is definitely happening. It looks like an extension request according to some reports but I wouldn't rule out a deal having been done too.

branie2

No surprises there if that happens

Zubeneschamali

judeboy101 wrote: »

EU will move on arbitration. Cox is a cute hoor,

Cox has already been caught saying UK would neuter the backstop by going to arbitration to end it on the first day it applies. Bad faith.

Harry Palmr

The Irish gubberment (what's left of it in Patties Week) has been summoned for meeting this evening on the back of developments.

edit - beaten to it.

Itssoeasy

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Cabinet meeting now confirmed for 6.45pm so something is definitely happening. It looks like an extension request according to some reports but I wouldn't rule out a deal having been done too.

Yes I does seem that whether a cabinet meeting was happening and at what time have firmed up alot. But, as we know with Brexit just because something is agreed, until it passes a vote in the HOC and Lords it's not done.

branie2

So I saw on the news

Beechwoodspark

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'd not be getting too worked up. Whatever is agreed will be rejected tomorrow in the HoC

I suspect so too

The ERG said they wanted the agreement reopened and the backstop struck out and some other arrangement put in

The reported “developments” go nowhere near those asks.

They’ll dismiss it within a few minutes of getting the details I think

However IF cox tells them it’s a better deal then at least MPs who want to vote for it will have that cover I suppose.

Itssoeasy

Just going on what I saw Micheal Lehane say on the six one news, he's saying that things moved very fast today on whatever is happening. He said that some staff who were travelling with the Taoiseach to the US were at Dublin Airport and left and returned to Government buildings. So, whatever this may end up being/ or not it seemed to happen very quickly.

BobbyBobberson

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1105176827155357696

Itssoeasy

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

I suspect so too

The ERG said they wanted the agreement reopened and the backstop struck out and some other arrangement put in

The reported “developments” go nowhere near those asks.

They’ll dismiss it within a few minutes of getting the details I think

But why have the ERG and others been allowed to make it sound like the backstop comes into place on March 30th ? The backstop will only ever be used(and both sides hope it never is) if there is no agreement with the UK and the EU after the transition period is over. I don't understand why they get a free pass on this distortion of the backstop.

An Ciarraioch

This sounds like straw-grasping:

http://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1105164642832261120

Seth Brundle

I know people will be focused on the Irish Cabinet meeting and the meeting in Strasbourg but Channel 4 have this tonight (which I won't get to see)...

https://twitter.com/jonsnowC4/status/1105141721669746689?s=19

Frank Bullitt

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I know people will be focused on the Irish Cabinet meeting and the meeting in Strasbourg but Channel 4 have this tonight (which I won't get to see)...

https://twitter.com/jonsnowC4/status/1105141721669746689?s=19

Channel 4 have been on a roll lately, I was wondering when dear Jacob would get a mention.

ancapailldorcha

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

This sounds like straw-grasping:

http://twitter.com/JGForsyth/status/1105164642832261120

The problem is that they are ultimately trying to undermine or even abrogate the GFA, not on the basis that it is unfit for purpose or detriment to the UK, Ireland or Northern Ireland but that it is impeding project Brexit.

Dublin, London, Brussels & Washington were all involved in the GFA. If it is scrapped over this, there will be diplomatic repercussions. What we are witnessing is the hemorrhaging of British soft power, something in which it is a world leader over this Brexit nonsense which was instigated by a tiny majority in a half baked referendum called by a glorified PR man who wanted to take the easy way out and his successor now simply lacks either the courage or the moral fibre to put country above party squabbles and either bin the thing until at least a British negotiation position and aspirations can be built and articulated or ask for a transition period of how many years so that there's no cliff edge. But of course, that means that the spivs and speculators can't cash in which was the whole point.

If the UK reneges on or undermines something as important as the GFA over something so absurd that its practically beyond parody, what sort of signal will that send to potential investors and governments?

"We want a trade deal until it inconveniences us. When we decide we need another white elephant disguised as a panacea it shall be discarded".

Whatever about Britain's history and status as a former imperial power, it ended up in a position where it's statesmen and leaders where respected and listened to. They have successfully exported more of their culture than perhaps any other nation with the possible exception of the US. They have stood in the corner of smaller Eastern European states when they wanted to join the EU. They have the ability to influence huge supranational organisations like the UN and the EU for the better and often have.

And this is being binned for less sovereignty, not more. Sure, there'll be no more ECJ but who is going to fare better when the world is dominated by China, the US, the EU and possibly India and Brazil as well? British politicians seem to be degrading rapidly in calibre as time passes. The one thing I would say about Leave voters is that they voted for less globalization and now face having to import chicken of such poor quality it has to be washed in what is basically bleach at the behest of a foreign government. If they want to take back control, Brexit needs to be confined to the annals of history. The sooner the better.