Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Christy42

Folkstonian wrote: »

MadYaker wrote: »

I haven't noticed anyone hopping or seething. Tusk, Varadker and Barnier have all been pretty calm and collected but it must be incredibly frustrating trying negotiate with a completely dysfuctional UK government.

There was a guy earlier today who was clearly irritated that some british cars don’t have an EU flag emblem on the registration plate!

Tusk has just compared those who lead the Brexit campaign to people we believe are destined for ‘a special place in hell’ - rapists, murderers, abusers, etc

I understand that people here are loyal and grateful to Tusk because he has gone into bat for Ireland in the media countless times over the past couple of years - but these comments are as unhelpful, nasty, and divisive as any comparison of the EU to the USSR.

If talks break down entirely at this point, Tusk will not be blameless.

Those who lead it without a plan. Surely you are not claiming those who campaigned for every trade deal the UK enjoys to be cancelled did so without a plan?

I agree that was not helpful. I am not sure it hurt anything given how it is gone. I can also see the frustration of how they have been repeatedly treated by the UK ministers and press.

Hurrache

So much for the theory from some in the UK yesterday that Varadkar meeting today, followed by May tomorrow, is in order to knock heads together.

Panrich

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Tusk's comments while true are extremely unhelpful. They will strengthen the resolve of Brexiters and push us further away from a reasonable agreement, and indeed a deal ahead of March 29th. The timing is especially off ahead of TM's visit tomorrow.

Theresa May has been adept at one thing in this whole fiasco. She has been able to string along Remainers in parliament with promises of jam tomorrow and her visit to Brussels is just another episode of that saga.
It's therefore no harm to set the tone that she needn't bother showing up with another half-baked fudge of an idea that has no chance of acceptance.
It looks like she will be met with straight talking in public before, during and after her visit so that she can no longer spin this out back home.

Bigus

Panrich wrote: »

This needed to be said. There has been too much pandering to absolute knobs like Johnson, Farage and Rees Mogg whose lack of any credible plan for their vanity project will cause untold hardship and suffering.

The remarks also pull the rug from under May's disingenuous trip to Brussels , might stop her spoofing to one and all . Sometimes harsh remarks are what's needed to get things done , seems to have worked well for Trump.
I noticed a few ashen faces in the HOC on the Tory side immediately after these remarks were made.

ambro25

Folkstonian wrote: »

There was a guy earlier today who was clearly irritated that some british cars don’t have an EU flag emblem on the registration plate!

Tusk has just compared those who lead the Brexit campaign to people we believe are destined for ‘a special place in hell’ - rapists, murderers, abusers, etc

I understand that people here are loyal and grateful to Tusk because he has gone into bat for Ireland in the media countless times over the past couple of years - but these comments are as unhelpful, nasty, and divisive as any comparison of the EU to the USSR.

If talks break down entirely at this point, Tusk will not be blameless.

I quite like the new filter-less EU diplospeak about all things Brexit.

Pity it took so long to bring it about, it might have helped focus British minds earlier, within a still useful timeframe. Alas.

As for blaming Tusk about a hypothetical breakdown in talks...look at the hospital mocking charity here.

For Forks Sake

Sammy Wilson with a typically measured response...

https://twitter.com/eastantrimmp/status/1093126875524878336?s=19

Adamcp898

Nice of Donald to remind us that even in less chaotic, more peaceful times, i.e. before Brexit, he was prone to a few obnoxious and/or arrogant comments.

I don't disagree with someone being straight talking, not least on this particular subject, but if this was an effort of the EU to try and control the "who's fault is it" narrative it's a sore failure. It will only be painted as yet another example of Tusk's arrogance. If the EU really wanted a strong comment put on the record then have someone who isn't so easily vilified and spun by the press do it.

Hurrache

An ever growing list in response to the pearl clutching going on by some in the UK over the comments.
https://twitter.com/ottocrat/status/1093140435520901121

Hurrache

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Nice of Donald to remind us that even in less chaotic

Excuse me?

lawred2

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Sammy Wilson with a typically measured response...

https://twitter.com/eastantrimmp/status/1093126875524878336?s=19

trident wielding!?

It's funny but I don't quite know what Sammy thinks it means...

20silkcut

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Nice of Donald to remind us that even in less chaotic, more peaceful times, i.e. before Brexit, he was prone to a few obnoxious and/or arrogant comments.

I don't disagree with someone being straight talking, not least on this particular subject, but if this was an effort of the EU to try and control the "who's fault is it" narrative it's a sore failure. It will only be painted as yet another example of Tusk's arrogance. If the EU really wanted a strong comment put on the record then have someone who isn't so easily vilified and spun by the press do it.

Who cares?? Everything is spun by the press in Britain to suit their own agenda.
If he said he loves brexiteers they would spin that.
If he said he was neutral about brexiteers they would spin that.
Might as well tell the truth and let them spin that.

Folkstonian

Hurrache wrote: »

Jaysus.

Useful contribution.

Tell me, when and to whom is the phrase ‘special place in hell’ usually applied?

It’s the most combative and insulting use of language we’ve seen so far in my opinion.

The obstinacy here is nothing surprising, Tusk has wielded his influence on behalf of Ireland magnificently, but these words haven’t just come from a low level MEP or even an outspoken fanatic like Verhofstadt - this is the European president.

It’s akin to Theresa May saying it. It’s a big deal.

We might see dialogue completely break down for a time now.

J Mysterio

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Tusk's comments while true are extremely unhelpful. They will strengthen the resolve of Brexiters and push us further away from a reasonable agreement, and indeed a deal ahead of March 29th. The timing is especially off ahead of TM's visit tomorrow.

I think its been specifically said because of Mays visit tomorrow.

The EU have repeatedly said the WA is final.

All the while May has been in HOC making promises about changing the WA.

She has gone to NI and talked about changes.

Now, she can be left in no doubt, and no one can say she has been 'ambushed' when she gets short shrift tomorrow.

Wakey wakey time.

intellectual dosser

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

No real sense though that she is going to present any meaningful proposal tomorrow, in which case she could have left a visit until next week, and/or postponed the HoC vote.

Deleted User wrote: »

It does lessen their expectations of the EU folding at the last minute. That's a good thing.

Panrich wrote: »

Theresa May has been adept at one thing in this whole fiasco. She has been able to string along Remainers in parliament with promises of jam tomorrow and her visit to Brussels is just another episode of that saga.
It's therefore no harm to set the tone that she needn't bother showing up with another half-baked fudge of an idea that has no chance of acceptance.
It looks like she will be met with straight talking in public before, during and after her visit so that she can no longer spin this out back home.

I think Tusk could have accommplished a firm push back on TM and the UK without the jibe that now makes all the headlines and re-enforces an 'us versus them' mentality in the UK.

Chips Lovell

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Sammy Wilson with a typically measured response...

https://twitter.com/eastantrimmp/status/1093126875524878336?s=19

lawred2 wrote: »

trident wielding!?

It's funny but I don't quite know what Sammy thinks it means...

I thought the UK was the one with Trident?

Seriously though, it's beyond satire, but I'm sure it'll go down well with DUP core voters and I doubt Wilson cares much about anybody else.

Hurrache

Folkstonian wrote: »

Useful contribution.

Tell me, when and to whom is the phrase ‘special place in hell’ usually applied?

It’s the most combative and insulting use of language we’ve seen so far in my opinion.

The obstinacy here is nothing surprising, Tusk has wielded his influence on behalf of Ireland magnificently, but these words haven’t just come from a low level MEP or even an outspoken fanatic like Verhofstadt - this is the European president.

It’s akin to Theresa May saying it. It’s a big deal.

We might see dialogue completely break down for a time now.

C'mon, stop trying to insinuate there's a comparison with sex offenders, you're making yourself even look more ridiculous.

For Forks Sake

lawred2 wrote: »

trident wielding!?

It's funny but I don't quite know what Sammy thinks it means...

The list of things that Sammy actually knows is extremely short. To think that that man was a teacher in one of his previous lives...

VinLieger

Folkstonian wrote: »

Useful contribution.

Tell me, when and to whom is the phrase ‘special place in hell’ usually applied?

It’s the most combative and insulting use of language we’ve seen so far in my opinion.

The obstinacy here is nothing surprising, Tusk has wielded his influence on behalf of Ireland magnificently, but these words haven’t just come from a low level MEP or even an outspoken fanatic like Verhofstadt - this is the European president.

It’s akin to Theresa May saying it. It’s a big deal.

We might see dialogue completely break down for a time now.

More useful than your constant bloviating misquotes to misrepresent what people say in the effort to pretend black is white

Adamcp898

Hurrache wrote: »

Excuse me?

You're excused?

20silkcut wrote: »

Who cares?? Everything is spun by the press in Britain to suit their own agenda.
If he said he loves brexiteers they would spin that.
If he said he was neutral about brexiteers they would spin that.
Might as well tell the truth and let them spin that.

I just can't figure out the rationale behind the language.

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I thought the UK was the one with Trident?

Seriously though, it's beyond satire, but I'm sure it'll go down well with DUP core voters and I doubt Wilson cares much about anybody else.

Poor auld Sammy, one man's trident is another man's nuclear deterrent.

Leroy42

Folkstonian wrote: »

Useful contribution.

Tell me, when and to whom is the phrase ‘special place in hell’ usually applied?

It’s the most combative and insulting use of language we’ve seen so far in my opinion.

The obstinacy here is nothing surprising, Tusk has wielded his influence on behalf of Ireland magnificently, but these words haven’t just come from a low level MEP or even an outspoken fanatic like Verhofstadt - this is the European president.

It’s akin to Theresa May saying it. It’s a big deal.

We might see dialogue completely break down for a time now.

But he specially said to whom it applies so there is no need to assign to the usual!

Dialogue has broken down. TM agreed a deal with the UK, and without any warning or even a plan she did a complete 180 and now has thrown it back to the EU to solve her problem.

It is ironic that Brexit is all about taking back control and yet the entire narrative is that the EU will not give the UK what it wants.

TM has spoken very agressively about the EU throughout this. Go back to her Lanchaster House speech. It was all about the EU needed to get the deal, the UK would either get what it wanted or walk out.

She has allowed the narrative to continue that the EU are holding them hostage, she played up the Salsborg event for all it was worth, making it sound like the UK was almost under attack.

robinph

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Tusk's comments while true are extremely unhelpful. They will strengthen the resolve of Brexiters and push us further away from a reasonable agreement, and indeed a deal ahead of March 29th. The timing is especially off ahead of TM's visit tomorrow.

Not a problem if it strengthens the resolve of the brexiteers, all they have been doing so far is shouting and screaming nonsense. This won't change that.

If his comment gets a few less fundamentalist brexiteer leaning people to turn away from the nonsense and actually work on something meaningful with the rest of the politicians who have not lost their mind then it would be a good thing.

Christy42

Folkstonian wrote: »

Hurrache wrote: »

Jaysus.

Useful contribution.

Tell me, when and to whom is the phrase ‘special place in hell’ usually applied?

It’s the most combative and insulting use of language we’ve seen so far in my opinion.

The obstinacy here is nothing surprising, Tusk has wielded his influence on behalf of Ireland magnificently, but these words haven’t just come from a low level MEP or even an outspoken fanatic like Verhofstadt - this is the European president.

It’s akin to Theresa May saying it. It’s a big deal.

We might see dialogue completely break down for a time now.

Surely for dialogue to break down there needs to be actual dialogue ongoing?

In the UK there was already a them vs us comparison and the press was always going to swing whatever came their way.

I agree with him but not sure the comment was helpful. At this point I am not sure it hurts anything though at this stage.

LuckyLloyd

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Nice of Donald to remind us that even in less chaotic, more peaceful times, i.e. before Brexit, he was prone to a few obnoxious and/or arrogant comments.

I don't disagree with someone being straight talking, not least on this particular subject, but if this was an effort of the EU to try and control the "who's fault is it" narrative it's a sore failure. It will only be painted as yet another example of Tusk's arrogance. If the EU really wanted a strong comment put on the record then have someone who isn't so easily vilified and spun by the press do it.

It's time to rally our side. This is happening, and the EU27 have plenty to work through in terms of disruption and implementing temporary unilateral measures. Enough kid gloves with the UK. It's over, it's No Deal. The time for anything else has passed.

About time to be honest. There can be no "surprise" now when May is sent packing. The EU played nice up to now and it emboldened the fools of the ERG et al.

This is just a firm way of saying "Show us your bloody plans" and stop wasting time. None of this "alternative arrangements" crap which we tossed out months ago.
Firm plans and ideas now May

Bit cynical

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's time to rally our side. This is happening, and the EU27 have plenty to work through in terms of disruption and implementing temporary unilateral measures. Enough kid gloves with the UK. It's over, it's No Deal. The time for anything else has passed.

Ireland still wants a deal.

Adamcp898

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's time to rally our side. This is happening, and the EU27 have plenty to work through in terms of disruption and implementing temporary unilateral measures. Enough kid gloves with the UK. It's over, it's No Deal. The time for anything else has passed.

Again, the rationale behind the language. I just don't see it. There's plenty of ways of "rallying" your side without riling up the other. Unless that is the rationale, of course.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's time to rally our side. This is happening, and the EU27 have plenty to work through in terms of disruption and implementing temporary unilateral measures. Enough kid gloves with the UK. It's over, it's No Deal. The time for anything else has passed.

I hate the idea of it but yeah. I really hope it was bluster, from Leo, about there being no planning around a "No Deal" because it is now time to begin to implement such a plan

Adamcp898

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Again, the rationale behind the language. I just don't see it. There's plenty of ways of "rallying" your side without riling up the other. Unless that is the rationale, of course.

He's not rallying his side. He is telling the other side that games are over, show your plan or bugger off. Don't rip up our agreement and expect us to cave

Adamcp898

Deleted User wrote: »

He's not rallying his side. He is telling the other side that games are over, show your plan or bugger off. Don't rip up our agreement and expect us to cave

I didn't say he was. The other poster did.

Imreoir2

I think Tusk's comment was intentional and calculated. Diplomacy is an art and what is said and what is not said speaks volumes. That Tusk took a hard swipe at the Brexitters with only a few weeks left to Brexit day and with May on her way to Brussels tomorrow is a clear signal that time is up, May cannot expect any further assistance from the EU and can expect to be called out on any further fudging, backtracking or deflection.

Consider his statement earlier in his speach that acknolodged that Brexit is unstopable and that remain sentiment in the UK is not strong enough to overcome Brexit. This in the context of his often saying that he hopes that Brexit could be averted. This signals that EU intransigence not to be seen as a last ditch effort to avert Brexit. This suggests to a UK observer that the UK continuing in a game of chicken is not going to alter the EU's course.

Clearly, from Tusks statement, the EU are not going to cave at the last minute and it is now up to the sensible majority in the HoC to decide if they will allow the Brexiteer fringe drive them off a cliff or not.