Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

A Dub in Glasgo

downcow wrote: »

Amazing outburst from trusk. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt by suggesting it was lost in translation but that might be over generous. Is he the Sammy Wilson of Europe?
Or is he starting to feel the pressure To give way on the backstop?

Do you think what he said was wrong?

Infini

downcow wrote: »

Amazing outburst from trusk. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt by suggesting it was lost in translation but that might be over generous. Is he the Sammy Wilson of Europe?
Or is he starting to feel the pressure To give way on the backstop?

Sammy is on a whole different level of stupid (remember "Send them to the chippy?") unlike Tusk who has actually hit the nail on the head. Hes perfectly right to say it because those who advocate this whole Brexit process with no plan are perfectly deserving of contempt as they dont care who this damages only that they get their own way. Read the context man!

briany

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Do you think what he said was wrong?

I think he's teeing it up for a rejoinder from Farage (maybe he's made one already) about how there's a special place in hell for the 'unelected old men' in Brussels who want to make a United States of Europe. Are we going to see some serious Twitter mud wrestling?

MrMusician18

downcow wrote: »

Amazing outburst from trusk. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt by suggesting it was lost in translation but that might be over generous. Is he the Sammy Wilson of Europe?
Or is he starting to feel the pressure To give way on the backstop?

Some have opined that it could be a smoke screen, an intentional media storm to give TM some room tomorrow.

Guardian also notes that nothing was said today about a time limit. I wonder will they commit to having the future relationship wrapped up in say 5 years in the PD?

Have to agree that today seems to be the start of the endgame and the EU is coming out firing. It's harder for the UK to try to make the EU break if the EU shows open contempt for the British politicians who caused all this.

Perhaps I'll be found wrong but it was an unexpected but welcome changing of the tone before May arrives. I'd say those three tweets were discussed for days.

lawred2

Hurrache wrote: »

On the BBC News, surprise surprise, Katya Adler, even bigger surprise surprise, painting those in the EU as saying that Tusk is an emotional person, not speaking for all the EU, someone who's known for seriously misjuding his words and enjoys the attention, and she's calling his judgement into question. She's terrible.

Contrast with Tony Connolly who has always said he always carefully judges his words, and the fact he later tweeted the same shows this.

Just watched BBC news. Lots of concerned faces and faux shock and off the record comments from gravely upset MPs.. even off the record comments from surprised and offended people in Brussels.

Never a name to these comments of course..

And of course Arlene deeply upset at someone pointing out the treachery of voting for something so transformative with zero plan as to how to deliver on the result of such a vote..

downcow

Infini wrote: »

Sammy is on a whole different level of stupid (remember "Send them to the chippy?") unlike Tusk who has actually hit the nail on the head. Hes perfectly right to say it because those who advocate this whole Brexit process with no plan are perfectly deserving of contempt as they dont care who this damages only that they get their own way. Read the context man!

Sammy says “send them to the chippy”
And tusk says “send them to hell”. And you think Sammy is the stupid one. I am accepting Sammy’s comment was ridiculous but you are defending tusk wanting us in hell.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Amazing outburst from trusk. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt by suggesting it was lost in translation but that might be over generous. Is he the Sammy Wilson of Europe?
Or is he starting to feel the pressure To give way on the backstop?

Or is it the sound of the door finally banging shut. How many times do you need to say 'the negotiations are over...you need to decide'.

downcow

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Some have opined that it could be a smoke screen, an intentional media storm to give TM some room tomorrow.

Guardian also notes that nothing was said today about a time limit. I wonder will they commit to having the future relationship wrapped up in say 5 years in the PD?

I hope you are correct

demfad

downcow wrote: »

Sammy says “send them to the chippy”
And tusk says “send them to hell”. And you think Sammy is the stupid one. I am accepting Sammy’s comment was ridiculous but you are defending tusk wanting us in hell.

Tusk's comments were aimed at those who pushed for Brexit yet had no plan to implement it.

Unless you are one of the people behind Brexit you should probably stop using the word "we".

listermint

downcow wrote: »

Sammy says “send them to the chippy”
And tusk says “send them to hell”. And you think Sammy is the stupid one. I am accepting Sammy’s comment was ridiculous but you are defending tusk wanting us in hell.

That's not what he said.

Why are you lying

Infini

briany wrote: »

I don't blame them for being exasperated, but it sounds like they've given up on the kind of calm political language that typified the first 18 months or so of the A50 process (up until May's speech after Salzburg). Lot of Brexiteer comments below that tweet ironically thanking Verhofstadt for helping them reaffirm their vote in their minds, and so on.

I'll be honest they might reserve some diplomatic courtesy for May but the rest of those in parliment need a right bollocking and a slap across the back of the head. They're perpetuating a self destructive policy of zero benefit but are happy to damage everyone around them not to mention their own country for the sake of vain pride. They're not thinking, some as we've seen blatantly in that twitter link from parliment misread a straitfoward tweet and distort it Daily Fail style to be something completely different before those with proper comprehension skills correct their lies.

At this point were in the endgame people have been playing nice for 2 years but eventually enough is enough, the diplomatoc talk needs to be put aside and people bluntly told the hard truth that this level of stupidity is about to cause. Should they actually crash out without taking responsibiity for a mess of their making they'll be living this down for years even decades. Its one thing to have a crisis happen in your backyard without realising it, its a whole different thing when it was not only flagged in advance but refuse to avoid it and ignore all the warnings. Thats reckless abandonment right there.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Or is it the sound of the door finally banging shut. How many times do you need to say 'the negotiations are over...you need to decide'.

The only thing I am certain about anymore in this is that the negotiations definitely are not over. So we’ll agree to differ on that one

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Sammy says “send them to the chippy”
And tusk says “send them to hell”. And you think Sammy is the stupid one. I am accepting Sammy’s comment was ridiculous but you are defending tusk wanting us in hell.

Those who went into this without the semblance of a plan have destroyed lives and livelihoods that were perfectly secure beforehand.
'Hell' is a metaphor for the place where they should be. Disgraceful, what they have done here. And for what...an abstract notion of belonging to something that patently doesn't care and doesn't want them.

Enzokk

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Some have opined that it could be a smoke screen, an intentional media storm to give TM some room tomorrow.

Guardian also notes that nothing was said today about a time limit. I wonder will they commit to having the future relationship wrapped up in say 5 years in the PD?

But the PD is not legally enforceable. They could put in there that they want to return the UK Empire back to its glory days and solve time travel and travel to other galaxies in 5 years. It means nothing and that is why the ERG doesn't care about it or clarifying letters or codices. They are fully aware of what fudges there could be and seeing as they aren't interested in a good deal other than leaving the EU they will call out these for what they are. May will still not get her deal through without their support and unless they crumble, why would they as no deal is the default, they have nothing to lose.

downcow

Just watched Diane Dodds on RTÉ Very clear and honest outline of where her community is at. Well done.

lawred2

downcow wrote: »

Amazing outburst from trusk. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt by suggesting it was lost in translation but that might be over generous. Is he the Sammy Wilson of Europe?
Or is he starting to feel the pressure To give way on the backstop?

Tusk with a capital T

Funny how you got ol Sammy's name spot on though..

Seth Brundle

downcow wrote: »

Sammy says “send them to the chippy”
And tusk says “send them to hell”. And you think Sammy is the stupid one. I am accepting Sammy’s comment was ridiculous but you are defending tusk wanting us in hell.

One was showing contempt to his electorate whereas the other holds contempt for politicians who misled their electorate and want to destroy their country.
What's your issue with that analysis?

Enzokk

downcow wrote: »

Sammy says “send them to the chippy”
And tusk says “send them to hell”. And you think Sammy is the stupid one. I am accepting Sammy’s comment was ridiculous but you are defending tusk wanting us in hell.

Either you have not been reading or watching what he said, nor this thread or you believe the reporting from some of the UK media.

If you voted for Brexit you are not the source of his statement. If you campaigned for Brexit on TV and didn't have a plan then you are exactly who he meant. Which one are you?

A lie will cross the world twice before the truth puts on its shoes. Seems you have proven this.

downcow

lawred2 wrote: »

Tusk with a capital T

Funny how you got ol Sammy's name spot on though..

This is nothing short of incredible. I apologies for my spelling

Sorry that should read apologise

MrMusician18

Enzokk wrote: »

But the PD is not legally enforceable. They could put in there that they want to return the UK Empire back to its glory days and solve time travel and travel to other galaxies in 5 years. It means nothing and that is why the ERG doesn't care about it or clarifying letters or codices. They are fully aware of what fudges there could be and seeing as they aren't interested in a good deal other than leaving the EU they will call out these for what they are. May will still not get her deal through without their support and unless they crumble, why would they as no deal is the default, they have nothing to lose.

There are only 30 or so true believers ERG members. Coming back with the 5 year promise in the PD might be enough to sell it to a pragmatic parliament (who will wilfully ignore that it is not legally enforceable in order to end the crisis)

I bet she would get her deal through if she got that 5 years in the PD and promised Labour a GE once all the enabling legislation has gone through.

She will have to decide whether she wants to keep her party or the country together, ultimately.

downcow

Enzokk wrote: »

Either you have not been reading or watching what he said, nor this thread or you believe the reporting from some of the UK media.

If you voted for Brexit you are not the source of his statement. If you campaigned for Brexit on TV and didn't have a plan then you are exactly who he meant. Which one are you?

A lie will cross the world twice before the truth puts on its shoes. Seems you have proven this.

I will watch it again but I think “Tv” was a wee lie you added to that. Hope it doesn’t cross the world Twice before it’s corrected

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

I will watch it again but I think “Tv” was a wee lie you added to that. Hope it doesn’t cross the world Twice before it’s corrected

So what was wrong with what Tusk said that offended you stop much, the content or the words?

listermint

downcow wrote: »

This is nothing short of incredible. I apologies for my spelling

Sorry that should read apologise

I asked you earlier why you misrepresented what tusk said.

Can you answer that please.

Adamcp898

Enzokk wrote: »

We are 52 days away from Brexit and the UK has no idea what they want from the EU other than the EU needs to compromise. The UK PM negotiated a deal for 18 months which she couldn't get through because she went at it alone, then she whipped her party to vote against her own deal so she can go back to the EU to get a new deal. What is that new deal you may ask? I don't think anyone knows at this stage.

I think we are way past silly and into the stage where you have to laugh or you will cry stage.

Doesn't really explain why you'd go and decide to have a good auld laugh at them on social media though does it? At best it's unprofessional.

Like I said earlier, I don't get the rationale behind the exact language Tusk decided to use but I can understand why you'd want to send a strong message.

This bit from Verhofstadt just looks like you're trying to have a laugh at their expense though which is never a good look, and certainly not given his position concerning Brexit.

Hurrache

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Doesn't really explain why you'd go and decide to have a good auld laugh at them on social media though does it? At best it's unprofessional.

Like I said earlier, I don't get the rationale behind the exact language Tusk decided to use but I can understand why you'd want to send a strong message.

This bit from Verhofstadt just looks like you're trying to have a laugh at their expense which is never a good look anyway, but certainly not given his position concerning Brexit.

They're not dealing with those the comments were aimed at. And May tomorrow can hardly turn around and stand up for them can she?

Sparko

devnull wrote: »

When did the quality of journalism at the BBC get so bad? They are very much trying to sell a certain line and narrative recently and the way Tusk's comments were initially presented has done a lot of damage. They are no way impartial on this. It's ridiculous.

A few of my UK based relatives of the older generation have commented that they are horrified to be told that they should go to hell after learning that from the BBC and when I've told them what Tusk actually said was about those in power and without a plan and of course apparently I am the one spinning it.

By the time the BBC changed their initial story the damage was done and you have to ask yourself if it was a mere oversight or there was something more to it than that. I normally watch Sky anyway as least they consider the Irish viewpoint as well, but the BBC is truly shocking.

I think we're seeing this in action on this thread tonight.

FrancieBrady

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Doesn't really explain why you'd go and decide to have a good auld laugh at them on social media though does it? At best it's unprofessional.

Like I said earlier, I don't get the rationale behind the exact language Tusk decided to use but I can understand why you'd want to send a strong message.

This bit from Verhofstadt just looks like you're trying to have a laugh at their expense which is never a good look anyway, but certainly not given his position concerning Brexit.

Fairly typical after all the nonsense and vitriol thrown at the EU that people are huffing over getting a bit thrown back at them.

Arlene huffing about it is hilarious, given her record of vitriol and foot stamping.

I'm bloody delighted that this has kicked off.
Tusk has said nothing wrong, it is directed at the Red-Bus brigade.

Guy Verhofstadt also is correct, the people to whom Tusk refers would not agree to anything.


UK diplomats are in no doubt where the EU stands now, no more appeasement.

downcow

Hurrache wrote: »

So what was wrong with what Tusk said that offended you stop much, the content or the words?

I guess it must be cultural differences. To tell a group of people that they have a place reserved in hell is fairly incredible in my culture. But more than that it is arrogant and implies that eu are angels.
I am not upset about it. Indeed it shows cracks appearing in Eu earlier than I thought. I reckoned we wouldn’t see any moves until after the 14th but this clearly will create some pressure within Europe. I guess many in Eu will be highly embarrassed about his outburst.
So it’s positive for UK Let’s hope we get a few more irrational comments from Eu reps in the coming days