Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am honestly stunned. I think I have been completely honest. I have watched again and here is my best honest attempt at quoting him.

“I’ve been wondering, what a special place in hell looks like for those who promoted brexit without even a sketch of a plan”

Many many many of my friends promoted brexit. So please tell me how I am misunderstanding this. And he clearly read it from a prepare statement. As someone said to me on here earlier, wake up and smell the coffee.

Where is the the 'plan' your friends 'promoted'?

Enzokk

Adamcp898 wrote: »

I just don't think it's a great look for anyone. Let alone here.

You may well be correct that Verhofstadt went over the top. I guess we can look forward to a balanced response tomorrow in the newspapers and cartoons where he will not be depicted as drunk with open bottles of wine all around him again.

Beechwoodspark

downcow wrote: »

I am honestly stunned. I think I have been completely honest. I have watched again and here is my best honest attempt at quoting him.

“I’ve been wondering, what a special place in hell looks like for those who promoted brexit without even a sketch of a plan”

Many many many of my friends promoted brexit. So please tell me how I am misunderstanding this. And he clearly read it from a prepare statement. As someone said to me on here earlier, wake up and smell the coffee.

Your many friends who promoted Brexit - Did they have “even a sketch of a plan”??

Enzokk

I think it is obvious that the outrage of Leavers has worked with the response of downcow. We are now discussing who is supposed to be offended by Tusk instead of looking at those plans. They have shifted the argument to what he said instead of the substance.

downcow

MrMusician18 wrote: »

So what if campaigners feel hurt by Tusks comments. Although they weren't directed at them, they do have a place in the hierarchy of blame.

They did campaign for a half baked (being kind) idea with no plan behind it.

There's also a place for leave voters in this pyramid too, they aren't blameless either.

I despair at how our two nations find a way back to trust and friendship after this. It seems many on here feel brits should have voted in the referendum the way they would have liked them to. There seems to be almost hatred for leave voters. I don’t here this in NI or on gb news. Yes of course remainers are annoyed but most respect the decision of the country. It’s ireland that is disgusted how we voted.
Can you imagine if ireland had voted a certain way in a referendum and brits were telling them you are stupid people and you are going to hell.
Try and see this from other perspectives

Beechwoodspark

Downcow please respond to the question I posed to you a few posts up

jochenstacker

downcow wrote: »

I am honestly stunned. I think I have been completely honest. I have watched again and here is my best honest attempt at quoting him.

“I’ve been wondering, what a special place in hell looks like for those who promoted brexit without even a sketch of a plan”

Many many many of my friends promoted brexit. So please tell me how I am misunderstanding this. And he clearly read it from a prepare statement. As someone said to me on here earlier, wake up and smell the coffee.

Simple.
Did your friends have even a sketch of a plan?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I despair at how our two nations find a way back to trust and friendship after this. It seems many on here feel brits should have voted in the referendum the way they would have liked them to. There seems to be almost hatred for leave voters. I don’t here this in NI or on gb news. Yes of course remainers are annoyed but most respect the decision of the country. It’s ireland that is disgusted how we voted.
Can you imagine if ireland had voted a certain way in a referendum and brits were telling them you are stupid people and you are going to hell.
Try and see this from other perspectives

Where is the plan? If your mates had a plan then show it and we'll get on Tusk's back to withdraw the remark.

downcow

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Your many friends who promoted Brexit - Did they have “even a sketch of a plan”??

I don’t think they did. So I I hope hell is not too hot cause according to tusk - if they didn’t have a sketch plan then that is where they are going.
They should though hold on to the comfort that although tusk might think he is god, I’m confident he is not

Adamcp898

Enzokk wrote: »

You may well be correct that Verhofstadt went over the top. I guess we can look forward to a balanced response tomorrow in the newspapers and cartoons where he will not be depicted as drunk with open bottles of wine all around him again.

I wasn't going to bring up the cartoons to be honest. But they'll be next level and full of indignation now that someone had the temerity to aim any sort of condescension at them.

MrMusician18

downcow wrote: »

I despair at how our two nations find a way back to trust and friendship after this. It seems many on here feel brits should have voted in the referendum the way they would have liked them to. There seems to be almost hatred for leave voters. I don’t here this in NI or on gb news. Yes of course remainers are annoyed but most respect the decision of the country. It’s ireland that is disgusted how we voted.
Can you imagine if ireland had voted a certain way in a referendum and brits were telling them you are stupid people and you are going to hell.
Try and see this from other perspectives

I can respect the decision but I don't respect the idea or the motivations behind it. Taking back control is a euphemism for we don't want to cooperate any more.

The motivation for leave was totally unsavory, so no I don't respect the individuals but do respect there right to make that decision.

They also might not respect European values but they need to respect that we in Europe hold things dear too.

An Ciarraioch

The Alternative Arrangements Working Group don't have a clear plan either, it seems:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/aawg-erg-argh

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where is the plan? If your mates had a plan then show it and we'll get on Tusk's back to withdraw the remark.

I don’t think they had a fully thought out one. So they are for hell

Beechwoodspark

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think they did. So I I hope hell is not too hot cause according to tusk - if they didn’t have a sketch plan then that is where they are going.
They should though hold on to the comfort that although tusk might think he is god, I’m confident he is not

Thanks for your honest response.

If they had no plan they themselves were idiots and anyone persuaded by them was a fool

downcow

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I can respect the decision but I don't respect the idea or the motivations behind it. Taking back control is a euphemism for we don't want to cooperate any more.

The motivation for leave was totally unsavory, so no I don't respect the individuals but do respect there right to make that decision.

They also might not respect European values but they need to respect that we in Europe hold things dear too.

I completely respect what you are saying

downcow

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Thanks for your honest response.

If they had no plan they themselves were idiots and anyone persuaded by them was a fool

So do I take it you would also send them to hell?

Beechwoodspark

downcow wrote: »

So do I take it you would also send them to hell?

I am agnostic as it happens. But that’s very much beside the point!

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think they did. So I I hope hell is not too hot cause according to tusk - if they didn’t have a sketch plan then that is where they are going.
They should though hold on to the comfort that although tusk might think he is god, I’m confident he is not

Tusk, can't actually send anyone to hell. You do know that? It is a figure of speech. When I tell the dog to 'go to hell'' when it is annoying me, I don't mean that he should go to that place (Imaginary place to many, I might add)

jochenstacker

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

If they had no plan they themselves were idiots and anyone persuaded by them was a fool

I find it amazing how the Brexit side can spread lies and misinformation, throw tantrums and basically be belligerent and insulting.
But one hint of disapproval from the EU and they will throw an absolute sh*t fit.
Well, of course we have come to expect honesty, integrity, intelligence and good manners from the EU side.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

So do I take it you would also send them to hell?

Not hell, maybe Connaught though.

listermint

downcow wrote: »

I don’t think they had a fully thought out one. So they are for hell

I don't believe you had friends promoting brexit I think this is more of the same faux outrage. Similar to you being a former remainer that never voted .

If your version of promoting brexit was lads down the boozer saying yeah we should leave the EU. Then well....


There was never a promotion or push for brexit in NI even the dup was spending their money in London and when I say their money ... I mean not theirs . Cash from dubious origins.

I think I'm satisfied with calling out this faux outrage nonsense for what it is. Contrary for the sake of it.

fash

Technically, Tusk is correct in that (according to Dante), the 8th circle of hell is reserved for fraudsters - or at least those of the "simple" kinds of fraud - those fraudsters who engage in "complex" fraud breaching bonds of honour, love or blood however are destined for the 9th circle of hell.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge

I think from this that downcow's friends are more likely destined for the 8th level only - while those who are committing a fraud while intentionally intending to cause chaos (Mogg for example) are destined for the 9th circle.
I would welcome others' thoughts on which circle is appropriate for whom: are Davis or Raab too dim to end up in the 9th circle for example?

J Mysterio

briany wrote: »

I don't blame them for being exasperated, but it sounds like they've given up on the kind of calm political language that typified the first 18 months or so of the A50 process (up until May's speech after Salzburg). Lot of Brexiteer comments below that tweet ironically thanking Verhofstadt for helping them reaffirm their vote in their minds, and so on.

I suppose there are two things:

1. Loose the moral high ground
2. Risk lowering the tone to a point where everyone loosens their tongue and we have a sort of anarchy.

Tusk obviously used these words with some intent - to send a message - and while they were amusing, they probably were too strong. This situation is on such a knife edge that we have to be quite careful.

downcow

I hadn’t been on here for a while so thought I would update on thoughts.

I am surprised by all the action today. I didn’t see that coming I guess the outcome of today is that the ordinary people on the UK are more determined not to give in to tusk and the likes. . I expected nothing dramatic until after the 14th. I don’t think much will happen on tomorrow visits
I am fairly convinced the backstop will go. There seems no other option. I know I’ve been told I’m talking out of my arse for saying that but it makes no sense to Eu or UK to do a no deal.
It will prob be a fudge but Irish pm said anything other than a permanent backstop is not a backstop. This I prob agree with him on. Hence the outcome has to be no backstop, with or without a deal. As no nation in its right mind would sign up to an agreement that there was no way out of.
When that penny drops with Eu after 14th. Then Eu and UK will have to think do we want ‘no backstop deal’ or ‘no backstop no deal’. Seems obvious deal is the way to go.

mickoneill31

downcow wrote: »

So do I take it you would also send them to hell?

Tusk said there's a place in hell reserved for those who promoted Brexit without a plan.

This does not mean

1 he wants to send them to hell.
2 he wants to send those who voted for Brexit to go to hell.

Pretty obvious but for some reason many are misinterpreting a simple sentence so they can be outraged. Gives them something to do I suppose.

listermint

You are talking out of your arse. At least you are self aware .

There will be no deal. There will be a recession and the cheerleaders such as yourself up the north will be coming down south for work.

And you know what it won't be the EU or Ireland at fault. It will be this idiotic notion of not having sovereignty or some other drivel that drove it.

People will lose their homes families will lose people none of this is to be celebrated NONE

devnull

downcow wrote: »

As no nation in its right mind would sign up to an agreement that there was no way out of.

If you're not going to honour an agreement then you shouldn't sign up to it.

Do you know any employers that give their staff unilateral right to start ignoring certain parts of their terms and employment if they desire to do so but are expected to still keep up their side of the bargain?

Do you know any insurers that have a unilateral right to end their insurance cover for your house the day that it catches fire and do you think that this is fair?

You can't have your cake and eat it and have the agreement a la carte, and keep the bits you want and discard the bits you don't when it suits - the whole idea of agreements is to keep both sides honest to ensure both sides stick to what they say they will - without it no agreement is worth the paper it's written on.

If people don't like agreements they don't have to sign them, but good luck to the UK getting trade deals when they simply want to start abandoning parts of the deal when it suits them - nobody will sign up on that principle.

downcow

listermint wrote: »

There was never a promotion or push for brexit in NI even the dup was spending their money in London and when I say their money ... I mean not theirs . Cash from dubious origins.

I think I'm satisfied with calling out this faux outrage nonsense for what it is. Contrary for the sake of it.

Well there was certainly a major remain push by government and most parties. So maybe that skewed it and there would have been a significant leave vote if you are correct. Good point. Thanks for that.

Tell me how

downcow wrote: »

I hadn’t been on here for a while so thought I would update on thoughts.

I am surprised by all the action today. I didn’t see that coming I guess the outcome of today is that the ordinary people on the UK are more determined not to give in to tusk and the likes. . I expected nothing dramatic until after the 14th. I don’t think much will happen on tomorrow visits
I am fairly convinced the backstop will go. There seems no other option. I know I’ve been told I’m talking out of my arse for saying that but it makes no sense to Eu or UK to do a no deal.
It will prob be a fudge but Irish pm said anything other than a permanent backstop is not a backstop. This I prob agree with him on. Hence the outcome has to be no backstop, with or without a deal. As no nation in its right mind would sign up to an agreement that there was no way out of.
When that penny drops with Eu after 14th. Then Eu and UK will have to think do we want ‘no backstop deal’ or ‘no backstop no deal’. Seems obvious deal is the way to go.

First bolded point - Why don't you think the HoC will cop on and accept the deal which is on the table rather than crash out?

Second bolded point - There is a way out of the agreement. Put the solutions which they have been talking about in to action and demonstrate their effectiveness.

Third bolded point - Are you for real? Did you hear Tusk today. I'd say the pennys are fairly settled on that side of the water.

Hurrache

downcow wrote: »

I guess the outcome of today is that the ordinary people on the UK are more determined not to give in to tusk and the likes..

They're out of the picture, there's nothing they can say or do about any of this.