Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

robindch · 08-02-2019 10:58pm

An original, if somewhat confused, response to the political mess in the UK, which involves a nice lady and John Humphries but only one set of clothes:

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-47171829/brexit-cambridge-professor-invites-jacob-rees-mogg-to-naked-debate

FrancieBrady · 08-02-2019 11:00pm

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It very simple.

British people will use the term Irish, English, Welsh or Scottish to distinguish one British person, or group of British people,from another.

It's used in the context of Britain, not as a standalone term.

Just like white Americans will use the term Irish American, German American, Italian American to distinguish one a person or a group of people.

So a person could be seen as both Irish and British.

Absolutely correct. But there is a silly and peculiar sensitivity in Irish unionism to being seen as 'Irish'. And believe me, an English, Scot and Welsh person see them as Irish.

Infini · 08-02-2019 11:00pm

Honestly alloy and down your just going around in circles and being silly at this point. You can go on about all of this but it doesnt change the reality that is the situation right now that Britain is about to make the most idiotic mistake in its modern history and that mistake is going to result in a mess that could easily bring an end to the UK as it exists. The worst part of all this is your government in Westminster is too busy playing politics and ignoring responsibilities to realize or care.

All this come's down to one thing: They refuse to admit they're wrong or in the wrong no matter what facts are there they ignore everything because they cannot accept it. Worse is that some blatently LIE and it's very easy in this day and age to detect BS. Being ignorant doesn't work with people who have actually researched the information.

The only thing that ends this is if they cop on and cancel Brexit. The vote was tampered by outside forces the fact that the Leave campaign cheated to the tune of £1million alone should have at least invalidated the poll and as it was advisory there was nothing to stop them doing this. If they crash out it's the equivelent of burning their own house and then setting the neigbours on fire. That kind of behaviour doesn't end well.

As for Leo saying he's the EU well of course he is. So is Macron, Merkel and any other leader of the EU countries it's a group of nations with common policies and shared leadership. The problem is it rubs some of the Brits the wrong way as it subtley make's them feel they're in a weaker position and expecially those from England who prefer being Leader of the pack. Unfortunately they're threatening people with no deal with is not only utterly self defeating and utterly pointless but provokes and annoys those with the power to actually give the UK an even HARDER time than they should if they really are pushed to.

prawnsambo · 08-02-2019 11:01pm

Borderhopper wrote: »

I think this thread is in serious danger of being permanently derailed. A few months ago it was stuffed full of useful and interesting information on pretty much everything that relates to Brexit, but it seems to have gone downhill-the thread is taken up by pages and pages of trolling, with the same incorrect/irrelevant information being repeated constantly.

Could the mods step in here, as it seems to be getting out of hand?

To be fair to the mods, they have to do the lion's share of the work policing and cleaning up the thread. I find the ignore function helpful.

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2019 11:06pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Negotiations between the UK and Japan not going to well for the UK. Who'd have thought that the UK may end up with a worse deal than the one they would have had when in the EU?

When the EU did a deal it involved a compromise between the 28 national interests.

Some of these deals did not suit the UK.

The EU deal with the Faroe Islands did not suit the UK.

It meant that they could fish in Scottish (EU) waters but not visa versa. The promise of taking back control of fishing was a factor that got a dozen Tory MPs elected in Scotland last time out. The Faroe Islands export just one thing so a trade deal should be pretty simple ?

Took nearly two years to negotiate a deal that allows the Faroese to continue to sell fish caught in Scottish waters back to the UK , but not visa-versa.

The Japanese are big into sea food and very professional.
There's no way they didn't see the UK roll over.

BTW The Faroese Government appointed a Brexit task group in June 2016.

FrancieBrady · 08-02-2019 11:07pm

Borderhopper wrote: »

I think this thread is in serious danger of being permanently derailed. A few months ago it was stuffed full of useful and interesting information on pretty much everything that relates to Brexit, but it seems to have gone downhill-the thread is taken up by pages and pages of trolling, with the same incorrect/irrelevant information being repeated constantly.

Could the mods step in here, as it seems to be getting out of hand?

It still is a fascinating analytical resource when things are happening. These little interludes are equally fascinating, and facts usually disperses the nonsense.

blanch152 · 08-02-2019 11:08pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, I get your point but the fact it the British see them as Irish. Evidenced over and over again.
I don't get the insistence by unionists that they are some invented notion...given that the term 'British' is an invented notion originally as is the 'UK'
We are islands made up of different nationalities, simple as. If you choose a different identity that doesn't change where you are actually from. I respect your choice by the way.

This is either absolute nonsense or a rejection of the GFA.

It doesn't matter whether some or even all of those on the British mainland consider those from Northern Ireland as Irish. Neither does it matter if some of us in the South consider anyone from Northern Ireland as British or Northern Irish or something different from Irish.

What the GFA did was allow anyone from Northern Ireland to choose to identify themselves as Irish or British and that both governments would recognise their right to do so. Anyone who mocks the unionists choosing a British nationality doesn't accept the GFA.

For me, I accept the choices of those living in Northern Ireland. However, I do find it hard to understand why some people do reject the reality of where they are born. They are Northern Irish first, British or Irish second. The biggest tragedy of Brexit is that we are losing the opportunity to become Europeans first and everything else second.

lawred2 · 08-02-2019 11:09pm

Infini wrote: »

Honestly alloy and down your just going around in circles and being silly at this point. You can go on about all of this but it doesnt change the reality that is the situation right now that Britain is about to make the most idiotic mistake in its modern history and that mistake is going to result in a mess that could easily bring an end to the UK as it exists. The worst part of all this is your government in Westminster is too busy playing politics and ignoring responsibilities to realize or care.

All this come's down to one thing: They refuse to admit they're wrong or in the wrong no matter what facts are there they ignore everything because they cannot accept it. Worse is that some blatently LIE and it's very easy in this day and age to detect BS. Being ignorant doesn't work with people who have actually researched the information.

The only thing that ends this is if they cop on and cancel Brexit. The vote was tampered by outside forces the fact that the Leave campaign cheated to the tune of £1million alone should have at least invalidated the poll and as it was advisory there was nothing to stop them doing this. If they crash out it's the equivelent of burning their own house and then setting the neigbours on fire. That kind of behaviour doesn't end well.

As for Leo saying he's the EU well of course he is. So is Macron, Merkel and any other leader of the EU countries it's a group of nations with common policies and shared leadership. The problem is it rubs some of the Brits the wrong way as it subtley make's them feel they're in a weaker position and expecially those from England who prefer being Leader of the pack. Unfortunately they're threatening people with no deal with is not only utterly self defeating and utterly pointless but provokes and annoys those with the power to actually give the UK an even HARDER time than they should if they really are pushed to.

The Taoiseach sits on the council of ministers.. that's pretty much the core of it all. So saying 'I'm the EU' while a wee bit aggrandizing is still 100% accurate

listermint · 08-02-2019 11:11pm

blanch152 wrote: »

This is either absolute nonsense or a rejection of the GFA.

It doesn't matter whether some or even all of those on the British mainland consider those from Northern Ireland as Irish. Neither does it matter if some of us in the South consider anyone from Northern Ireland as British or Northern Irish or something different from Irish.

What the GFA did was allow anyone from Northern Ireland to choose to identify themselves as Irish or British and that both governments would recognise their right to do so. Anyone who mocks the unionists choosing a British nationality doesn't accept the GFA.

For me, I accept the choices of those living in Northern Ireland. However, I do find it hard to understand why some people do reject the reality of where they are born. They are Northern Irish first, British or Irish second. The biggest tragedy of Brexit is that we are losing the opportunity to become Europeans first and everything else second.

Yeah northern Irish is Irish. Regardless of the nonsense association people want to get away from its the Ireland of Ireland. You don't see English people running away from their title .

You can be British sound , no problems but your Irish too and no that doesn't mean your from the south or the republic or you want to be part of any of that. But the simple fact is your Irish. Northern Irish. Feelings don't change that for anyone.

And he outside world will call you Irish too.

Btw you can still be British as is your right. Be happy. Move on

downcow · 08-02-2019 11:17pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, I get your point but the fact it the British see them as Irish. Evidenced over and over again.
I don't get the insistence by unionists that they are some invented notion...given that the term 'British' is an invented notion originally as is the 'UK'
We are islands made up of different nationalities, simple as. If you choose a different identity that doesn't change where you are actually from. I respect your choice by the way.

I have been corrected several times on here when I refer to roi. I’ve been told that the country containing 26 counties is IRELAND. So would you agree if I live in County Down then I do not live in Ireland? You can’t have it both ways. And it was honestly an education to me to find out on here that you country is Ireland. I have pointed out to a few nationalist friends this week that you think they do not live in Ireland and they are not impressed ðŸ˜€

View · 08-02-2019 11:18pm

alloywheel wrote: »

The UK and the Unionists do not want a hard border and will not pay a penny towards a hard border. If the EU tells us to put up a hard border they will be going against the wishes of the people of these islands. And making us all worse off. But they will not care. Wait and see;)

The U.K. and the Unionists clearly DO want a hard border. It is the U.K. government, supported by the Unionists, which is pursuing Brexit, thus creating the need for one. If the U.K. wasn’t pursuing Brexit, no one would be discussing the NI border.

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2019 11:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

One thing I will never understand is how:

Britain scraps its safety-first approach to safety and food standards

Can ever be argued against? How do you sell that to people?

If they are hungry enough ... pointed out by Hugh Dennis on Mock the Week ages ago.

A sarcastic comment I saw elsewhere said that most EU food would qualify as "organic" in the US. And that's not even wrong.

Right now the UK has a bout of horse flu. It can't but serve as an insight as to how some Brexit restrictions would apply, and a reminder of Mad Cow.

blanch152 · 08-02-2019 11:20pm

listermint wrote: »

Yeah northern Irish is Irish. Regardless of the nonsense association people want to get away from its the Ireland of Ireland. You don't see English people running away from their title .

You can be British sound , no problems but your Irish too and no that doesn't mean your from the south or the republic or you want to be part of any of that. But the simple fact is your Irish. Northern Irish. Feelings don't change that for anyone.

And he outside world will call you Irish too.

Btw you can still be British as is your right. Be happy. Move on

If you are asking me, I am a Dub, first and foremost.

The thing is, with the GFA, we have no right to tell anyone on this island what their nationality is. You may well believe that Northern Irish are Irish, but those who live up there can choose to be British first and foremost, that is their right.

We have enough problems with Brexit without opportunistic republicans trying to turn it into a unity issue. That type of attitude only adds to the Brexit problems.

FrancieBrady · 08-02-2019 11:22pm

listermint wrote: »

Yeah northern Irish is Irish. Regardless of the nonsense association people want to get away from its the Ireland of Ireland. You don't see English people running away from their title .

You can be British sound , no problems but your Irish too and no that doesn't mean your from the south or the republic or you want to be part of any of that. But the simple fact is your Irish. Northern Irish. Feelings don't change that for anyone.

And he outside world will call you Irish too.

Btw you can still be British as is your right. Be happy. Move on

Exactly. There is much jumping up and down about this but we are Irish on this island however we identify and however much northern Unionists use the term British to try and insult, they are still Irish and seen as Irish. Silly bugger stuff sorted by the GFA. Identify as you wish, who cares, and I respect whatever you want to be, but don't get upset because it is seen as a notion or construct. The people of this island are Irish first.

lawred2 · 08-02-2019 11:23pm

downcow wrote: »

I have been corrected several times on here when I refer to roi. I’ve been told that the country containing 26 counties is IRELAND. So would you agree if I live in County Down then I do not live in Ireland? You can’t have it both ways. And it was honestly an education to me to find out on here that you country is Ireland. I have pointed out to a few nationalist friends this week that you think they do not live in Ireland and they are not impressed ðŸ˜€

The island is Ireland.

It's politically divided between Ireland and Northern Ireland

But listen don't worry about it

Capt'n Midnight · 08-02-2019 11:25pm

downcow wrote: »

I have been corrected several times on here when I refer to roi. I’ve been told that the country containing 26 counties is IRELAND. So would you agree if I live in County Down then I do not live in Ireland? You can’t have it both ways. And it was honestly an education to me to find out on here that you country is Ireland. I have pointed out to a few nationalist friends this week that you think they do not live in Ireland and they are not impressed &#55357;&#56832;

The island is Ireland.

The whole point of both countries being in the EU is that it doesn't matter. Unionists can live as though they are in Britain. Nationalists can live as though they are in Ireland. Both get irate when dealing with UK companies that treat the Island as overseas for postage.

If you live in County Down how come you never heard of anyone being condemned to hell ?

Junkyard Tom · 08-02-2019 11:26pm

blanch152 wrote: »

They are Northern Irish first.

Cool. So you're doing the exact same thing you're railing against - foisting an identity on someone based on your own need to goad people.

British or Irish or both as per the GFA.

FrancieBrady · 08-02-2019 11:27pm

blanch152 wrote: »

If you are asking me, I am a Dub, first and foremost.

The thing is, with the GFA, we have no right to tell anyone on this island what their nationality is. You may well believe that Northern Irish are Irish, but those who live up there can choose to be British first and foremost, that is their right.

We have enough problems with Brexit without opportunistic republicans trying to turn it into a unity issue. That type of attitude only adds to the Brexit problems.

Brexit for the entire island of Ireland is a partition issue. Fact. And the British people are seeing it, why can't a 'Dub'?

briany · 08-02-2019 11:29pm

Infini wrote: »

The only thing that ends this is if they cop on and cancel Brexit. The vote was tampered by outside forces the fact that the Leave campaign cheated to the tune of £1million alone should have at least invalidated the poll and as it was advisory there was nothing to stop them doing this. If they crash out it's the equivelent of burning their own house and then setting the neigbours on fire. That kind of behaviour doesn't end well.

My thing about Brexit was that the referendum was won on a 52-48 split. It's virtually impossible to move on with such a division over such a big political issue. What are Brexiteers hoping here, exactly? That Remain supporters will eventually stop going on about it? Brexiteers certainly didn't stop banging on about it in the 10 years or so leading up to the vote. Will they cry foul if they're subjected to the same kind of political long war?

I suppose it's that they hope that the EU will fracture and break apart and become untenable, thus being proved correct in their choice to leave the EU. OK, but what if that doesn't happen? Is there a contingency plan?

And even if the EU does break apart, I don't think that's something to be exactly celebrated in the way Brexiteers think it would. You see, right in the aftermath of that, you're potentially left with a fractious Europe open to the influence of the major world powers of today, and world powers who have become increasingly hawkish in their actions and rhetoric.

Of course, Brexiteers would ask why European countries would need to be under the thumb of anyone, but the way that the world works is that countries cut deals with other countries, and the bigger country with more leverage usually gets the longer end of the stick in that. This begs the question if the UK will be calling the shots with its trading partners, or having the shots called to it. I certainly think that in the case of the USA, China, Russia and India, it'll be the latter.

BonnieSituation · 08-02-2019 11:30pm

blanch152 wrote: »

This is either absolute nonsense or a rejection of the GFA.

It doesn't matter whether some or even all of those on the British mainland consider those from Northern Ireland as Irish. Neither does it matter if some of us in the South consider anyone from Northern Ireland as British or Northern Irish or something different from Irish.

What the GFA did was allow anyone from Northern Ireland to choose to identify themselves as Irish or British and that both governments would recognise their right to do so. Anyone who mocks the unionists choosing a British nationality doesn't accept the GFA.

For me, I accept the choices of those living in Northern Ireland. However, I do find it hard to understand why some people do reject the reality of where they are born. They are Northern Irish first, British or Irish second. The biggest tragedy of Brexit is that we are losing the opportunity to become Europeans first and everything else second.

You tell 'em blanch!

I'd really like to be in the audience when you're in my friend's front room in Dungannon telling that to his dad.

---

Anyway...

It's Friday. It's time to get off boards.

listermint · 08-02-2019 11:30pm

blanch152 wrote: »

If you are asking me, I am a Dub, first and foremost.

The thing is, with the GFA, we have no right to tell anyone on this island what their nationality is. You may well believe that Northern Irish are Irish, but those who live up there can choose to be British first and foremost, that is their right.

We have enough problems with Brexit without opportunistic republicans trying to turn it into a unity issue. That type of attitude only adds to the Brexit problems.

Opportunistic what ?

If your refering to me as a Republican then you're wrong.

If your trying to drag sinnfein into this conversation that no one else had them in then you're wrong again.
This was a discussion between a poster who calls himself self northern Irish. Or you know.... Irish and the rest. Anyway it's getting stupid now just like someone who tries to run away from the island he was born on. I don't particularly care what he says he is at home . But I'd laugh as the lads down the pub in America Australia Germany or wherever calls him Irish and he loses his ****e trying to explain the difference to no avail.

He's British too. That's fine.

Mr.Nice Guy · 08-02-2019 11:33pm

BBC Radio 4's Any Questions this evening was from Bangor. You can listen to it here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002cnh#play

First topic discussed is a possible border poll in the event of a No Deal Brexit. I thought it was interesting the Tory MP Tobias Ellwood didn't dispute the claim made earlier on the BBC that several cabinet ministers are worried about a unity referendum.

Junkyard Tom · 08-02-2019 11:33pm

Seasonal British immigrants in Spain freaking out over Brexit. I believe a lot of these people were pro-Brexit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXnGkUmH1zM

I find it difficult to understand how incredibly stupid and egocentric you'd have to be to live in a foreign country in the EU while voting for your home country, of which you are a citizen, to leave the EU.

listermint · 08-02-2019 11:38pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Seasonal British immigrants in Spain freaking out over Brexit. I believe a lot of these people were pro-Brexit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXnGkUmH1zM

I find it difficult to understand how incredibly stupid and egocentric you'd have to be to live in a foreign country in the EU while voting for your home country, of which you are a citizen, to leave the EU.

Some think they are more valuable to the Spanish the report says.... Lol

They are a drain on the health system.a large one in Spain.

blanch152 · 08-02-2019 11:38pm

listermint wrote: »

Opportunistic what ?

If your refering to me as a Republican then you're wrong.

If your trying to drag sinnfein into this conversation that no one else had them in then you're wrong again.
This was a discussion between a poster who calls himself self northern Irish. Or you know.... Irish and the rest. Anyway it's getting stupid now just like someone who tries to run away from the island he was born on. I don't particularly care what he says he is at home . But I'd laugh as the lads down the pub in America Australia Germany or wherever calls him Irish and he loses his ****e trying to explain the difference to no avail.

He's British too. That's fine.

I never mentioned Sinn Fein - you did. They have nothing to do with Brexit, and have shown themselves to be irrelevant to any Brexit debate.

Northern Irish is not necessarily Irish. It can be British, after all, we live on the British Isles. That is the point I am making. You can be Welsh and British, you can be Scottish and British, you can be English and British, and yes, you can be Northern Irish and British, without ever being Irish.

If you don't understand that, you don't understand the GFA.

blanch152 · 08-02-2019 11:41pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Brexit for the entire island of Ireland is a partition issue. Fact. And the British people are seeing it, why can't a 'Dub'?

That is an exaggeration. Only republicans are seeing it as a partition issue.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You tell 'em blanch!

I'd really like to be in the audience when you're in my friend's front room in Dungannon telling that to his dad.

---

Anyway...

It's Friday. It's time to get off boards.

Hey, no problem to me, have been in much more difficult situations.

downcow · 08-02-2019 11:43pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The island is Ireland.

Yeah. That was always my understanding. But several people on here have been saying the 26 county nation is called Ireland.
Anyway this is way off topic so I’m not commenting anymore on the name of the country.

Borderhopper · 08-02-2019 11:43pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

To be fair to the mods, they have to do the lion's share of the work policing and cleaning up the thread. I find the ignore function helpful.

I appreciate the work that the mods put in in what is essentially a talking shop, and for which they get very little recognition for this in their spare time. I'm loath to ignore posters because there is always the off-chance there is some lucidity. I had an exchange with another poster whose views were the opposite of mine, and it was interesting to have that conversation. The poster didn't sway me with their argument, but it was civil enough.

I can't see any other outcome than a hard Brexit. I studied history and it's like the years before the first world war. All the major players wanted to avoid a major, costly war, but they all made decisions that ultimately led to 4 years of slaughter. I'm not saying that we're heading for the same scenario, but decisions and positions are being taken that take us away from where everyone wants to be. The British are trying to find their way out of this maze, but what if there is no way out?

In saying that, I can't see any other position that that the Irish government and the EU could have taken. I say that as someone living on the border, and who is likely to be majorly affected by it. I think it's sad that the DUP have essentially abandoned their voters and are risking everything we've built together for the sake of wrapping themselves in a Union flag and sticking it to the fenians.

Junkyard Tom · 08-02-2019 11:43pm

blanch152 wrote: »

If you don't understand that, you don't understand the GFA.

'Northern Irish', whatever it's supposed to mean, doesn't appear in the GFA.

You're either ignorant of that or you're simply trying to provoke a reaction.

Which is it?

FrancieBrady · 08-02-2019 11:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I never mentioned Sinn Fein - you did. They have nothing to do with Brexit, and have shown themselves to be irrelevant to any Brexit debate.

Northern Irish is not necessarily Irish. It can be British, after all, we live on the British Isles. That is the point I am making. You can be Welsh and British, you can be Scottish and British, you can be English and British, and yes, you can be Northern Irish and British, without ever being Irish.

If you don't understand that, you don't understand the GFA.

Sinn Fein have nothing to do with Brexit?

Sums up your contributions here tbh.

Like downcow and alloywheels (who have the decency to be unionist) your agenda has been rumbled by everyone.

The GFA allows you to identify as you wish, it does not remove fact. If you come from Ireland you are Irish. Nobody, except hardline Irish unionists has a real problem with that.

Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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