Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Seth Brundle

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It seems some members of the UK are finally holding lying MPs feet to the fire.

https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1092093761570652160

It's a shame it's coming 30 years too late

This Twitter thread about Kawczynski's income makes interesting reading and may explain his views...
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1092040413240807424?s=19

WomanSkirtFan8

EdgeCase wrote: »

Their ignorance of modern history is just beyond belief at times.

It's absolutely staggering. They've been living in an post-colonial imperalistic bubble for so long now its become second-nature for them.

Strazdas

Enzokk wrote: »

Her plan seems to be to bribe opposition MPs to vote for her deal by offering their constituencies more money and by scaring other MPs to vote for it as they know no-deal would be a disaster. With that in mind there is no need to go back to Brussels as she knows she will get nothing new and is just waiting it out to either have her plan passed or the country fall off the cliff. What a leader!

Andrew Adonis was on Ch.4 News this evening and said the number of Labour MPs likely to be swayed by this will be miniscule.

Spanish Eyes

From what I have heard, the history teaching in UK involves the 1066 conquest, the world wars and not much about the Irish question.

My friends in UK verify this.

No wonder there is a jingoistic version of history in UK.

History is so important, it is so easy to make the same mistakes and expect a different result.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. There will be no quelling of the hubris/arrogance of UK now it seems.

I suspect that they expect everyone to bow down to them now. I hope there is no dilution in the EU stance on the backstop, as I said earlier.

UK need to decide for themselves now.

Lemming

robinph wrote: »

You can click on the map link and see where the majority of the votes have come from.

If you open the json-format data file you can see the count by country, voting catchment area, etc. Some interesting reading; including the 16 people (at time I loaded the data) who signed the petition from Ireland.

Strazdas

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

From what I have heard, the history teaching in UK involves the 1066 conquest, the world wars and not much about the Irish question.

My friends in UK verify this.

No wonder there is a jingoistic version of history in UK.

History is so important, it is so easy to make the same mistakes and expect a different result.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. There will be no quelling of the hubris/arrogance of UK now it seems.

I suspect that they expect everyone to bow down to them now. I hope there is no dilution in the EU stance on the backstop, as I said earlier.

UK need to decide for themselves now.

It's a very interesting angle to this Brexit malarkey. Much of the enthusiasm for Brexit seems to be fuelled by profound ignorance of the world around them and an almost warped version of the history of Europe and Britain's role in it. This is not just Leave voters on the street, but the media and politicians, everyone.

Enzokk

tipp_tipp_tipp wrote: »

Is that the same guy that last year posted on twitter last year about how leaving the protectionist EU would remove tariffs on food items and mean much cheaper food for the UK? Only for people to respond to him with pics of all kinds of foods that were imported tariff free from round the world thanks to EU trade deals. Remember that well. Pretty sure it was a guy with a Polish surname that posted it.

Yes it is one and the same. The presenter should have backed down on his questions on his tweet and asked him a question about article 50. When he answered he should have asked him if his information is as accurate as in his tweet and whether they could believe it.

trellheim

A picture outlining the current trilemma

Capt'n Midnight

Enzokk wrote: »

Her plan seems to be to bribe opposition MPs to vote for her deal by offering their constituencies more money and by scaring other MPs to vote for it as they know no-deal would be a disaster. With that in mind there is no need to go back to Brussels as she knows she will get nothing new and is just waiting it out to either have her plan passed or the country fall off the cliff. What a leader!

What exactly has May given the Scottish Tory MP's that she totally depends on ?

Apart from rolling over and allowing the Faroe Islands to continue to fish in Scottish waters.


Even if a Labour MP believed May there's no guarantee that it would get paid before the next election. Which Labour would like tomorrow.

Lots of kite flying.

Fr Tod Umptious

trellheim wrote: »

A picture outlining the current trilemma

Not that great on the old facts there.

Option B suggests Ireland veto to WA.

That's not possible, they along with other 26 agreeded on it on 25th November

Folkstonian

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

From what I have heard, the history teaching in UK involves the 1066 conquest, the world wars and not much about the Irish question.

My friends in UK verify this.

No wonder there is a jingoistic version of history in UK.

History is so important, it is so easy to make the same mistakes and expect a different result.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. There will be no quelling of the hubris/arrogance of UK now it seems.

I suspect that they expect everyone to bow down to them now. I hope there is no dilution in the EU stance on the backstop, as I said earlier.

UK need to decide for themselves now.

So I studied history at GCSE and IB levels, topics included the Norman invasion, Tudor England, Victorian Britain (though here there was much about social and scientific advancement as much as the growth of empire), the world wars, the Cold War, the history of medicine in Britain - Snow, Jenner, Fleming etc, a fair bit of focus was also given to European history; the unification of Germany, Italian unification, the French Revolution and napoleon, the Russian revolution

All in all when I look back, given that history was one subject of around 12 that was studied in my school, I’d say the curriculum did as good a job as was possible with the time constraints to impart a good amount of knowlegde

But anyway, history is about the skills more than the content; analysing sources, evaluating their utility and reliability etc. To simply dictate history to children is wholly counterproductive

With respect to Ireland, it was mentioned I believe in the context of World War One, but I’m sure it’s appreciated that whilst the events of the Easter rising are hugely significant here, if memory serves it was covered in one lesson amongst a whole term of learning about the First World War.

Kermit.de.frog

Have to say I have been really impressed with Simon Coveney's performance on the backstop.

Seems to be driving the whole thing and working very hard. Seems to have a lot of ability.

Anthracite

trellheim wrote: »

A picture outlining the current trilemma

This has been doing the rounds for years? at this stage. Speaks volumes that it's still relevant.

Spanish Eyes

Folkstonian wrote: »

With respect to Ireland, it was mentioned I believe in the context of World War One, but I’m sure it’s appreciated that whilst the events of the Easter rising are hugely significant here, if memory serves it was covered in one lesson amongst a whole term of learning about the First World War.

OK, I am sure you got the full picture there.

The truth is the UK is not really concerned about any history other than its empirical triumphs. And that is all gone now.

Such is history in the making really.

PeadarCo

Folkstonian wrote:

With respect to Ireland, it was mentioned I believe in the context of World War One, but I’m sure it’s appreciated that whilst the events of the Easter rising are hugely significant here, if memory serves it was covered in one lesson amongst a whole term of learning about the First World War.

No disrespect but if that's all you know of Irish history you know very little and absolutely no where near enough to understand the issues around the border. The Easter rising itself needs to be understood within the context of the Home rule movement. And to understand that you have to back even further. The Troubles conflict itself is complicated. It's this lack of understanding that is driving some of the British attitudes to Ireland re Brexit. Anyone who thinks or thought Ireland would just follow the UK out of the EU has an extremely poor understanding of Irish history.

EdgeCase

I'm finding it a bit amusing that this has served as quite a stark wakeup call for the UK. I don't think they ever really saw Ireland as a 'proper country'. They've a tendency to see us as UK region that has become too uppidy. Hence all the comments about 'the Irish knowing their place' and so on. However, they are realising that we actually do exert a lot of soft power around Europe and beyond.

While they largely didn't engage with the EU, we networked the hell out of it and it's looking to have paid off big time in this. They're the outsiders, we're very much the insiders and seem to be in positions of power all over the institutions.

I've a feeling they may have great fun if they try to throw us under the bus with the Irish-American political community if they think that the Trump campaigners are going to off on any kind of anti-Irish agenda. I know it's not a highly organised lobby but it's on both side of the political divide over there and can tend to come together with huge effect when pushed on an Irish issue and to be fair, "The Brits" trying to bully Ireland or undermine its independence tends to be THE Irish issue.

Junkyard Tom

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The truth is the UK is not really concerned about any history other than its empirical triumphs.

That seems to be fairly accurate for a lot of Tory/Bullingdon-Boy types who, unfortunately, seem to pulling the strings there but I don't think it's true for the wider population.

Folkstonian

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

OK, I am sure you got the full picture there.

The truth is the UK is not really concerned about any history other than its empirical triumphs. And that is all gone now.

Such is history in the making really.

Sorry, did you miss the part where I explained that the history of Germany, Russia, Italy and France were included in a fair degree of detail in my historical education?

I don’t know why you are being snotty. I was merely adding a little bit of first hand information to some posts that were speculating about what is and isn’t included in the average history syllabus in an English school

4068ac1elhodqr

A teacher friend of mine says that many (RCC) Schools in the North, do their History GCSE/A Levels via exam boards located in in Eng:
London, SE & Anglia is popular board paper to sit, covering NI politics isn't really mentioned in the course matter.

Folkstonian

PeadarCo wrote: »

No disrespect but if that's all you know of Irish history you know very little and absolutely no where near enough to understand the issues around the border. The Easter rising itself needs to be understood within the context of the Home rule movement. And to understand that you have to back even further. The Troubles conflict itself is complicated. It's this lack of understanding that is driving some of the British attitudes to Ireland re Brexit. Anyone who thinks or thought Ireland would just follow the UK out of the EU has an extremely poor understanding of Irish history.

None taken. And no I do know a little bit more than the average, having studied military history at university and through taking a personal interest in British military history now in my own time

I get the feeling that people are surprised that in England the history of Ireland isn’t covered in exhaustive detail in schools. I think, being realistic, the history of England and Britain is so broad, and so vast, that to cover everything with absolute thoroughness would be possible only with 16 hour school days

A Dub in Glasgo

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

What exactly has May given the Scottish Tory MP's that she totally depends on ?

Do not be fooled by the media spin, they are exactly the same party that May heads and do not respect the views of their constituency

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Let's move away from debating the history curriculum in UK schools please.

Leroy42

Fintan O'Toole's book "Heroic Failure: Brexit and the politics of pain" gives a pretty good version of the cultural thinking behind Brexit.

Irishmale0399

The cultural thinking behind Brexit.............its a bit late in the day to be reading it or asking why its is as it is. Its time for the UK to realise the clock is ticking and there MPs should be busting a gut to get a deal which is best for the UK and not their personal egos.

Additionally many Irish people should be befriending themselves with the idea of a hard border and what it brings with it...because we are being driven at full speed towards it by the HoC.

black forest

It seems as if the DUP is hitting a little bump. Or may be more than just one. Obviously their basis is getting a bit nervous about a possible No Deal Brexit. Time to wake up anyway.


https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/02/03/ufu-president-declaration-that-a-no-deal-brexit-would-be-an-absolute-disaster-indicates-a-restless-dup-base-in-spite-of-mps-chippy-bravado/

An Ciarraioch

The hard Brexiteer wing of the Tories is endorsing a new conservative youth movement, called Turning Point UK, that reportedly has launched campaigns against liberal university staff in its original American version. In Britain, however, various parody accounts are already causing it to implode:

http://twitter.com/Neeerts/status/1091824686575640579

Infini

Seth Brundle wrote: »

This Twitter thread about Kawczynski's income makes interesting reading and may explain his views...
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1092040413240807424?s=19

As I suspected myself these parasites are only doing this for their own self interest. Noone with any real interest in their own country would be pushing such a self destructive and blatantly stupid policy of self destruction unless they were either total incompetent and stupid or intentionally doing this for their own gain. The sad truth is in other countries this would have gotten them at the very least into trouble for conflict of interest or even subterfuge but so far the Brit's are too far down the rabbit hole to realise what's happening. Such a sad state of affairs but this is wholly down to the British system of government failing its people.

I genuinely think we could see a crash out next month unless theres some serious cop on at this point the EU isn't going to buckle on this and they shouldn't if the UK can't get its act together appeasing them isn't going to help solve the problem as the whole issue is they simply wont decide what they want only what they dont want. The only way we might see some sanity prevail is if theyre ultimately forced to decide there and then whether to crash, accept the deal on the table or cop on and cancel by withdrawing A50.

road_high

EdgeCase wrote: »

I'm finding it a bit amusing that this has served as quite a stark wakeup call for the UK. I don't think they ever really saw Ireland as a 'proper country'. They've a tendency to see us as UK region that has become too uppidy. Hence all the comments about 'the Irish knowing their place' and so on. However, they are realising that we actually do exert a lot of soft power around Europe and beyond.

While they largely didn't engage with the EU, we networked the hell out of it and it's looking to have paid off big time in this. They're the outsiders, we're very much the insiders and seem to be in positions of power all over the institutions.

I've a feeling they may have great fun if they try to throw us under the bus with the Irish-American political community if they think that the Trump campaigners are going to off on any kind of anti-Irish agenda. I know it's not a highly organised lobby but it's on both side of the political divide over there and can tend to come together with huge effect when pushed on an Irish issue and to be fair, "The Brits" trying to bully Ireland or undermine its independence tends to be THE Irish issue.

Indeed. Never underestimate the power of diplomacy and simply being liked- we are all naturally drawn to engage and do business with people we like- the Irish are naturally good at this, the English not at all as their pompous arrogance tends to rise to the surface when threatened in any way. I think they’ve taken burning bridges to an art form at this stage and their never ending threats re trade especially have really gotten up people’s noses in Europe, especially in Germany.

Seth Brundle

Oh please Christ, don't let him come here!

Jacob Rees-Mogg has said he would “flee the country” should the Conservative Party decide to abandon Brexit.

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-will-flee-the-country-if-conservative-party-abandons-brexit_uk_59d3a18fe4b048a443255014

Infini

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Oh please Christ, don't let him come here!

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jacob-rees-mogg-will-flee-the-country-if-conservative-party-abandons-brexit_uk_59d3a18fe4b048a443255014

Doubt it, he'd likely run off to Russia to be with his mates instead! He probably wouldn't last long here either even if he did we have a great tendancy to low key burn his kind in conversations!