Ireland v England 4:45 Aviva Stadium

Faugheen

lawred2 wrote: »

No allowance for his recent form no?

either way - it's a moot point.

How many of those games were in a similar environment to tonight?

Anytime the going gets tough he struggles. It's not a ridiculous notion to suggest.

Are you telling me that Beirne would have suited this game more than Henderson?

C__MC

My own take on the game-

Irish media and supporters were very cocky towards England in the build up. England are England- they have some very good players and even when we beat them in 17 and 18, it wasn’t routs. Since the last World Cup- England and Ireland have been neck and neck in achievements. Nothing between either team but the build up was based on the assumption Ireland would bully England and jones was done. You can’t write off lions players , former slam champions and world class players like that.

Ireland’s strength in depth? I don’t see it but I hear about it alot. Some players today looked leggy, Sexton, best, toner, Murray , Healy looked flat. England well
And throughly fresher throughout- lazy analysis by virgin media assuming England would tire.

Ireland apart from ringrose- lack a spark. It’s all very bland rugby. Farrell today made it click for England. That’s my worry ahead of the World Cup- they also were more physical- South Africa will
Surely be onto this

Last point, I’d take this defeat if it meant a World Cup semi. It’s a reality check for all of us.

Jewelers

Faugheen wrote: »

If you don't give a f*ck then why do you continue to argue a toss over it and make sarcastic comments?

hmm you don't really get it do you .

lawred2

Faugheen wrote: »

How many of those games were in a similar environment to tonight?

Anytime the going gets tough he struggles. It's not a ridiculous notion to suggest.

Are you telling me that Beirne would have suited this game more than Henderson?

Jesus Christ... I wasn't telling you anything...

Faugheen

lawred2 wrote: »

Jesus Christ... I wasn't telling you anything...

What are you saying then?

razorblunt

Faugheen wrote: »

So you can’t name a time he has played badly, then.

Coming on in a game and being a lump in a scrum isn’t playing well. He replaced a guy with tackles in the high teens, he wasn’t seen again.
He’s not an international standard second row.

Jewelers

C__MC wrote: »

My own take on the game-

Irish media and supporters were very cocky towards England in the build up. England are England- they have some very good players and even when we beat them in 17 and 18, it wasn’t routs. Since the last World Cup- England and Ireland have been neck and neck in achievements. Nothing between either team but the build up was based on the assumption Ireland would bully England and jones was done. You can’t write off lions players , former slam champions and world class players like that.

Ireland’s strength in depth? I don’t see it but I hear about it alot. Some players today looked leggy, Sexton, best, toner, Murray , Healy looked flat. England well
And throughly fresher throughout- lazy analysis by virgin media
Ireland apart from ringrose- lack a spark. It’s all very bland rugby. Farrell today made it click for England. That’s my worry ahead of the World Cup- they also were more physical- South Africa will
Surely be onto this

Last point, I’d take this defeat if it meant a World Cup semi. It’s a reality check for all of us.

healy was one of our better players today imo . Ringrose , Ryan and healy aki too

Jewelers

C__MC wrote: »

My own take on the game-

Irish media and supporters were very cocky towards England in the build up. England are England- they have some very good players and even when we beat them in 17 and 18, it wasn’t routs. Since the last World Cup- England and Ireland have been neck and neck in achievements. Nothing between either team but the build up was based on the assumption Ireland would bully England and jones was done. You can’t write off lions players , former slam champions and world class players like that.

Ireland’s strength in depth? I don’t see it but I hear about it alot. Some players today looked leggy, Sexton, best, toner, Murray , Healy looked flat. England well
And throughly fresher throughout- lazy analysis by virgin media assuming England would tire.

Ireland apart from ringrose- lack a spark. It’s all very bland rugby. Farrell today made it click for England. That’s my worry ahead of the World Cup- they also were more physical- South Africa will
Surely be onto this

Last point, I’d take this defeat if it meant a World Cup semi. It’s a reality check for all of us.[/QUOTE

qfs is the problem per usual

Faugheen

razorblunt wrote: »

Coming on in a game and being a lump in a scrum isn’t playing well. He replaced a guy with tackles in the high teens, he wasn’t seen again.
He’s not an international standard second row.

I'll ask you the question once again.

When has Quinn Roux played badly for Ireland?

I don't give a **** about how long he was on the pitch for or whatever. Fact is we're without Henderson, Beirne and maybe Toner for Scotland, so Roux has a shot of playing the next day.

Nobody is saying Roux is this top class international quality lock. He is what he is but he's probably our next best option right now and why some people feel the need to have a go at him because of that is beyond me.

Amprodude

Marengo wrote: »

When an opinion states 'Johnny s*it his pants' for one bad game it can easily be dismissed as idiotic, trolling and a poster who should not be taken seriously.

I am judging him today only. He is a great player but today he was poor.

razorblunt

Faugheen wrote: »

I'll ask you the question once again.

When has Quinn Roux played badly for Ireland?

I don't give a **** about how long he was on the pitch for or whatever. Fact is we're without Henderson, Beirne and maybe Toner for Scotland, so Roux has a shot of playing the next day.

Nobody is saying Roux is this top class international quality lock. He is what he is but he's probably our next best option right now and why some people feel the need to have a go at him because of that is beyond me.

When has he played well? Take that game away.

He’ll be perfect for Scotland, himself and Gilchrist can out “big lump in scrums” each other.

Jewelers

lamours first high ball was a cringefest

Amprodude

Marengo wrote: »

Most comprehensive bullying deafeat since Twickenham 2012 and Lansdowne 2003. Hate when we're bullied by the English, it's in the DNA.

We were beaten by the better team. Cop on to yourself. England are going well Ireland aren't. Simple as. Nothing bullying about that.

tritriagain

Amprodude wrote: »

We were beaten by the better team. Cop on to yourself. England are going well Ireland aren't. Simple as. Nothing bullying about that.

Exactly. Everytime England we claim to be bullied. They gave us a lesson today and were more entertaining than us as well. Fair play to them. Learn and move on.

Faugheen

razorblunt wrote: »

When has he played well? Take that game away.

He’ll be perfect for Scotland, himself and Gilchrist can out “big lump in scrums” each other.

Italy, USA in the most recent Autumn internationals.

Now can you answer my question, please?

Mickey Mike

Nice to see the game in High Definition on Saorview, quality at its best.

Amprodude

ClanofLams wrote: »

buts it small margins and if he can get it right, the upside is massive. .

Unbelievable analysis. So far off the mark with that statement. Did you watch today's game?

Marengo

Amprodude wrote: »

We were beaten by the better team. Cop on to yourself. England are going well Ireland aren't. Simple as. Nothing bullying about that.

They bullied us in all contact situations. Bullied us in the air. Strategic positioning of blockers etc.

That's how you win.

Cop onto yourself. Anyone that makes a comment that Sexton is a **** the pants:rolleyes: 1 Grand Slam, 3 Championships, 4 ERCs. World Player of the Year.

You must have a great pair of pants:D Talk about a hurler on the ditch. Pure begrudgery with a large dose of ignorance in comments.

fed_u

Think Earls was caught for that try whether he rushed up or not - didn't have the numbers to cover!! Was the plan to hit Earls hard so that henshaw would be under further pressure without him/exposed more?? What are our options at 15 for next week??

Marengo

Rugby first and foremost is a fight for the ball and the ground. If you don't win that fight yes it can be said you were outfought and bullied.

Burkie1203

fed_u wrote: »

Think Earls was caught for that try whether he rushed up or not - didn't have the numbers to cover!! Was the plan to hit Earls hard so that henshaw would be under further pressure without him/exposed more?? What are our options at 15 for next week??

Earls had the touchline in his favour. It was a terrible read by Earls. If he held station he gives others a chance to slide across. Instead he committed and missed. 100% at fault.

Marengo

tritriagain wrote: »

Exactly. Everytime England we claim to be bullied. They gave us a lesson today and were more entertaining than us as well. Fair play to them. Learn and move on.

Yes but the entertainment and style can't be brought to play until dominance is achieved upfront..and we were beaten up, bullied by the better team.

Marengo

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Earls had the touchline in his favour. It was a terrible read by Earls. If he held station he gives others a chance to slide across. Instead he committed and missed. 100% at fault.

So close to the line also. If you intercept you can be the hero, but fail and unfortunately bad call. Just a mistake from Keith, the man that never made a mistake made nothing. He's a great servant to Irish rugby.

Clegg

Kearney is a must start of he's fit. I won't be too harsh on Henshaw as he was parachuted in with no real game time at 15 for years.

There are areas of his game that are better than Kearney's, notably athleticism and distribution although we didn't see much of the latter tonight. But what Kearney offers is irreplaceable and I wouldn't have him over any 15 in the world bar Ben Smith, for the way we play. Talk of his backfield coverage has been a bit excessive but he's really the best in the world at that.

A while ago Best made a comment that Kearney's positioning is so good that he rarely gets caught scrambling when a kick has gone behind. Due to that we have rarely had to defend 5 metre lineouts off our own kicking. Henshaw was caught out today, screwed a kick off his bad foot and we were very lucky because t to concede from the subsequent 5 metre lineout.

LuckyGent88

I’m really really drunk and Iv bide my tine before I came here but looks likes it’s been a hiarious.

England were the better team full stop but the more pressure the better

FrancieBrady

Marengo wrote: »

Rugby first and foremost is a fight for the ball and the ground. If you don't win that fight yes it can be said you were outfought and bullied.

I think 'bullied' is a stretch. We got to within 4 and I thought we could go on to win even though we were playing badly. The forward pass try killed us. But we came good for a try after that too.

Had England been bullying us as you say they would have scored much more.

troyzer

Clegg wrote: »

Kearney is a must start of he's fit. I won't be too harsh on Henshaw as he was parachuted in with no real game time at 15 for years.

There are areas of his game that are better than Kearney's, notably athleticism and distribution although we didn't see much of the latter tonight. But what Kearney offers is irreplaceable and I wouldn't have him over any 15 in the world bar Ben Smith, for the way we play. Talk of his backfield coverage has been a bit excessive but he's really the best in the world at that.

A while ago Best made a comment that Kearney's positioning is so good that he rarely gets caught scrambling when a kick has gone behind. Due to that we have rarely had to defend 5 metre lineouts off our own kicking. Henshaw was caught out today, screwed a kick off his bad foot and we were very lucky because t to concede from the subsequent 5 metre lineout.

That was Tracy, not Best.

Zzippy

Mod: I understand a lot of people are annoyed and frustrated by the defeat but there is no excuse for some of the posting on here tonight - quite a few red cards issued and bans will be next without recourse to the usual 3 red cards requirement. If it continues the thread will be locked. Oh, and if you get a red card it's because you've been a dick. Don't come whinging afterwards, you have fair warning now.

Burkie1203

Marengo wrote: »

So close to the line also. If you intercept you can be the hero, but fail and unfortunately bad call. Just a mistake from Keith, the man that never made a mistake made nothing. He's a great servant to Irish rugby.

Blah blah great servant. He ****ed up in the first few minutes. Simple as. Everything else is irrelevant. Teams have systems for a reason

munsterlegend

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Earls had the touchline in his favour. It was a terrible read by Earls. If he held station he gives others a chance to slide across. Instead he committed and missed. 100% at fault.

Totally agree. He created the two on one situation. The margins are very high in these matches. We lost by 13 and 14 came from a bad error and bad bounce. Thats not even taking into account the third English try.

I still think we should be considering Zebo for full back as back up to Kearney. We are a small country and need every option available.

Clegg

troyzer wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

Kearney is a must start of he's fit. I won't be too harsh on Henshaw as he was parachuted in with no real game time at 15 for years.

There are areas of his game that are better than Kearney's, notably athleticism and distribution although we didn't see much of the latter tonight. But what Kearney offers is irreplaceable and I wouldn't have him over any 15 in the world bar Ben Smith, for the way we play. Talk of his backfield coverage has been a bit excessive but he's really the best in the world at that.

A while ago Best made a comment that Kearney's positioning is so good that he rarely gets caught scrambling when a kick has gone behind. Due to that we have rarely had to defend 5 metre lineouts off our own kicking. Henshaw was caught out today, screwed a kick off his bad foot and we were very lucky because t to concede from the subsequent 5 metre lineout.

That was Tracy, not Best.

Fair enough.

I think the point stands in general though.

Faugheen

munsterlegend wrote: »

Totally agree. He created the two on one situation. The margins are very high in these matches. We lost by 13 and 14 came from a bad error and bad bounce. Thats not even taking into account the third English try.

I still think we should be considering Zebo for full back as back up to Kearney. We are a small country and need every option available.

Zebo would be considered if he didn’t leave.

Now, can we please stop talking about him? He’s not coming back into the fold barring a catastrophic injury list.

munsterlegend

Faugheen wrote: »

Zebo would be considered if he didn’t leave.

Now, can we please stop talking about him? He’s not coming back into the fold barring a catastrophic injury list.

Why should you decide what we talk about?? The three pundits on tv today said he should be considered and is worth his place with Ireland. There is no rule saying he can’t anyone who has half a clue about rugby knows he is a quality attacking option and very strong in the air.

BoardAtWork

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Earls had the touchline in his favour. It was a terrible read by Earls. If he held station he gives others a chance to slide across. Instead he committed and missed. 100% at fault.

There's an overhead shot which shows more info. The whole defensive line was poorly line and Earls was left in a no-win situation.

sydthebeat

fed_u wrote: »

Think Earls was caught for that try whether he rushed up or not - didn't have the numbers to cover!! Was the plan to hit Earls hard so that henshaw would be under further pressure without him/exposed more?? What are our options at 15 for next week??

It was a simple 3 on 3 with henshaw covering.

Earls made a woefully bad call

BoardAtWork

Supposedly CJ played for 60 min with the fractured cheek and eye-socket. What an absolute warrior.

troyzer

Clegg wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

Kearney is a must start of he's fit. I won't be too harsh on Henshaw as he was parachuted in with no real game time at 15 for years.

There are areas of his game that are better than Kearney's, notably athleticism and distribution although we didn't see much of the latter tonight. But what Kearney offers is irreplaceable and I wouldn't have him over any 15 in the world bar Ben Smith, for the way we play. Talk of his backfield coverage has been a bit excessive but he's really the best in the world at that.

A while ago Best made a comment that Kearney's positioning is so good that he rarely gets caught scrambling when a kick has gone behind. Due to that we have rarely had to defend 5 metre lineouts off our own kicking. Henshaw was caught out today, screwed a kick off his bad foot and we were very lucky because t to concede from the subsequent 5 metre lineout.

That was Tracy, not Best.

Fair enough.

I think the point stands in general though.

Of course. It's not a coincidence that we were constantly under pressure in our own 22 after kicks.

I think Henshaw was fighting to avoid being tackled in the in goal twice? His positioning was dreadful. Kearney normally have been under the ball before it got there, ran it back 20m and either kicked it or took contact and presented.

Henshaw was too busy scrambling to ultimately utilise his superior carrying abilities. Ultimately I'll take the old man who can reliably return it 10m than the whipper snapper who can either return it 20m or give up a 5m scrum or lineout.

Henshaw belongs in the centre, ahead of Aki

Marengo

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think 'bullied' is a stretch. We got to within 4 and I thought we could go on to win even though we were playing badly. The forward pass try killed us. But we came good for a try after that too.

Had England been bullying us as you say they would have scored much more.

I never felt we were going to win at 13-17. Just when the likes of Furlong are driven back in contact.. we couldn't break the gain line.. It's being bullied to me We've done that to teams before. Happens every team.

Burkie1203

munsterlegend wrote: »

Totally agree. He created the two on one situation. The margins are very high in these matches. We lost by 13 and 14 came from a bad error and bad bounce. Thats not even taking into account the third English try.

I still think we should be considering Zebo for full back as back up to Kearney. We are a small country and need every option available.

If Zebo gets picked it opens up the opportunity for others to go

That weakens the provinces

These players miss approx 45-50% of scheduled training sessions in 6n if they dont have release clauses. Gatland said last year English based Welsh players only attended 18 of 32 sessions. And some didn't take part in those 18 due to recovery days required after games

Poor prep = poor results. Look at France

The financial impact on the provinces becomes a vicious circle.

Plenty Of media stuff gets written etc but nobody examines why IRFU have to play it this way.

Ireland trained in Portugal last week and several players had an altered training schedule after the European games due to slight knocks

RederthanRed

England were much the better side and thoroughly deserved their win.

Burkie1203

BoardAtWork wrote: »

Supposedly CJ played for 60 min with the fractured cheek and eye-socket. What an absolute warrior.

I think thats poor from him. If that impacted his game at all he becomes a liability on the pitch

Marengo

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Blah blah great servant. He ****ed up in the first few minutes. Simple as. Everything else is irrelevant. Teams have systems for a reason

Ah relax. He made a bad call. Everything else about his career isn't irrelevant. even David Campese ****ed up on ocassion.

FrancieBrady

Marengo wrote: »

I never felt we were going to win at 13-17. Just when the likes of Furlong are driven back in contact.. we couldn't break the gain line.. It's being bullied to me We've done that to teams before. Happens every team.

I did and a few said it here. The game was in the balance and then a mistake and a blatant infringement.

BoardAtWork

sydthebeat wrote: »

It was a simple 3 on 3 with henshaw covering.

Earls made a woefully bad call

Nope. See below.


Healy, Ringrose, and Murray are all too narrow and blitzing up; Henshaw is too deep too. Earls is left with a 3-on-1. He trusted the system and hammered up too. It took a phenomenal pass to beat him, but it was a whole systems failure. The defensive structure failed, and Earls was made look the fool.

Even if he just drifted, it's very likely that a try would have been scored anyway.

Clegg

There was a potentially game turning moment in the second half. Ireland were in or around halfway and had.manufavtired a good attacking opportunity.

We'd manufactured a good attacking opportunity. Ringrose drew his man in and passed to Henshaw who had a bit of space. Stockdale was outside him and had a 1 on 1 with Nowell. I would've fancied him to beat him. But Slade came careening out of nowhere and creamed Henshaw as he was in the middle of passing. He got it way but it was a low one and Stockdale knocked it on. Brilliant bit of defensive play.

munsterlegend

Burkie1203 wrote: »

If Zebo gets picked it opens up the opportunity for others to go

That weakens the provinces

These players miss approx 45-50% of scheduled training sessions in 6n if they dont have release clauses. Gatland said last year English based Welsh players only attended 18 of 32 sessions. And some didn't take part in those 18 due to recovery days required after games

Poor prep = poor results. Look at France

The financial impact on the provinces becomes a vicious circle.

Plenty Of media stuff gets written etc but nobody examines why IRFU have to play it this way.

Ireland trained in Portugal last week and several players had an altered training schedule after the European games due to slight knocks

Home players should always be favoured but I believe when there is a big weakness then Zebo should be considered. I knows it’s unlikely but it certainly should be debated. South Africa have parachuted plenty players in when needed.

Faugheen

munsterlegend wrote: »

Why should you decide what we talk about?? The three pundits on tv today said he should be considered and is worth his place with Ireland. There is no rule saying he can’t anyone who has half a clue about rugby knows he is a quality attacking option and very strong in the air.

I’m saying it because it’s the same bull**** every international window.

He was good attacking option, but he flattered to deceive more often than not and he’s an atrocious defender.

More importantly. He left Ireland. He chose to leave knowing the consequences. He left the international set up when he signed for Racing.

Burkie1203

BoardAtWork wrote: »

Nope. See below.


Healy, Ringrose, and Murray are all too narrow and blitzing up; Henshaw is too deep too. Earls is left with a 3-on-1. He trusted the system and hammered up too. It took a phenomenal pass to beat him, but it was a whole systems failure. The defensive structure failed, and Earls was made look the fool.

Even if he just drifted, it's very likely that a try would have been scored anyway.

If he held the line he could have bought the guys inside a few seconds to shuffle across. Shooting up just took himself out of the game and gave England an easy run in.

C__MC

Didn’t earls Give England one last year as well?

BoardAtWork

If Schmidt knew that Henshaw would be so at sea at 15, would he have shut the door on Zebo and shipped him off to France? I'd imagine that the (incorrect) decision not to award Zebo a central contract was largely made due to Schmidt believing Henshaw was a good fit at 15. Zebo is Ireland's best fullback, and there's a much better chance that we would have won today if he was playing.

However, he's now in France and is out in the picture.