Ireland v England 4:45 Aviva Stadium

Pussyhands

mfceiling wrote: »

You're right...What were they thinking awarding him World player of the year for that anyway?

If Jonny played the exact same but didn't win a grand slam or beat NZ he wouldnt have won it.

sydthebeat

Pussyhands wrote: »

If Jonny played the exact same but didn't win a grand slam or beat NZ he wouldnt have won it.

shoulda, woulda, coulda.... probably ... maybe... rabble rabble rabble.... harummmph....

troyzer

Pussyhands wrote: »

mfceiling wrote: »

You're right...What were they thinking awarding him World player of the year for that anyway?

If Jonny played the exact same but didn't win a grand slam or beat NZ he wouldnt have won it.

Yeah, but he did.

Because of the way he played.

scurnane

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It was no way a forward pass. Slade is even still ahead of May when May collects.

As I see it, the ball was thrown from about 5m short of halfway line, to being caught on the halfway line, therefore it was thrown in a direction towards the opposition dead ball line. Hence forward pass, No?
Does the law allow for the relative velocity of the players throwing and catching the pass (I don't think it does but I could be wrong).

Richie_Rich89

scurnane wrote: »

As I see it, the ball was thrown from about 5m short of halfway line, to being caught on the halfway line, therefore it was thrown in a direction towards the opposition dead ball line. Hence forward pass, No?
Does the law allow for the relative velocity of the players throwing and catching the pass (I don't think it does but I could be wrong).

It does. It's judged relative to the passer, not some external static object

Paul Smeenus

rm75 wrote: »

In theory if Devon/Ryan were able to handle NZ they should not have a problem with Eng. I think it's a bit unfair to signal big Dev out, the whole pack was simply bullied yesterday and there was a distinct lack of aggression. The back row was anonymous, POM was everywhere against NZ but I was asking myself had I missed him being taken off at times yesterday. Ryan had a couple of carries but was also pretty anonymous. I prefer henderson off the bench to be honest.

Yesterday was simply a case of overconfidence by ireland and an english side with a point to prove resulting in us lacking aggression while they brought it in spades.

I'm not overly concerned, the hype after NZ was a bit OTT so this will give them a kick up the *ss. Hopefully we havent peaked a year too early, Best and Kearney are getting on and despite claims of strength in depth we need them both performing at the wc.

Last year, Joe started Henderson instead of Dev against England. He clearly thought then that it was a game where Henderson's skill set would help more than Toner's. The only reason that Toner is being singled out is that he's who Hendo would have replaced yesterday. No one in the pack - the team, actually - covered themselves in glory.

Faugheen

scurnane wrote: »

As I see it, the ball was thrown from about 5m short of halfway line, to being caught on the halfway line, therefore it was thrown in a direction towards the opposition dead ball line. Hence forward pass, No?
Does the law allow for the relative velocity of the players throwing and catching the pass (I don't think it does but I could be wrong).

The ball was thrown behind him. If momentum from the speed he was running brings it 'forward' then there's nothing Slade can do about it.

This type of pass happens all the time. Slade was ahead of the ball when Jonny May caught it. He wasn't standing static and just threw it forward, he actually passed the ball behind him.

scurnane

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

It does. It's judged relative to the passer, not some external static object

Still can't see where it does. It references an external static object, the opposition's dead ball line.

sydthebeat

scurnane wrote: »

Still can't see where it does. It references an external static object, the opposition's dead ball line.

In that case then a player would have to stop running everytime they passed the ball.... As a player who is running 30kmph forward... and releases the ball... Means the ball is initially moving 30kmph towards the try line.

The pass is ALWAYS relative to the passer only... That's a fundamental of the game.

scurnane

Faugheen wrote: »

The ball was thrown behind him. If momentum from the speed he was running brings it 'forward' then there's nothing Slade can do about it.

This type of pass happens all the time. Slade was ahead of the ball when Jonny May caught it. He wasn't standing static and just threw it forward, he actually passed the ball behind him.

I get what you're saying but the law doesn't mention the words "behind", "relative" or "momentum". The law is probably too simplistic in its language.

lawred2

scurnane wrote: »

As I see it, the ball was thrown from about 5m short of halfway line, to being caught on the halfway line, therefore it was thrown in a direction towards the opposition dead ball line. Hence forward pass, No?
Does the law allow for the relative velocity of the players throwing and catching the pass (I don't think it does but I could be wrong).

It's whether the ball leaves the hands backwards that matters.. momentum will still carry the ball forward

irishbucsfan

scurnane wrote: »

As I see it, the ball was thrown from about 5m short of halfway line, to being caught on the halfway line, therefore it was thrown in a direction towards the opposition dead ball line. Hence forward pass, No?
Does the law allow for the relative velocity of the players throwing and catching the pass (I don't think it does but I could be wrong).

Yes, it does

Richie_Rich89

scurnane wrote: »

I get what you're saying but the law doesn't mention the words "behind", "relative" or "momentum". The law is probably too simplistic in its language.

Says you can't throw it towards the dead ball line. But doesn't say the ball can't drift forward due to the speed of the passer after a flat/backwards release

swiwi_

You will not believe what I saw. Sexton was pinned, with his hand being held as tightly as a mother bringing her little boy across a busy road. Sexton tried to break free, but the vice was too tight. He appealed to the touch judge, who was all of two metres away. The touch judge actually tried to pull the English player's hand away, but he failed. England scored and there was no call-back for an Irish penalty. Shocking stuff.


Pot calling the kettle black...

Jeepers, Ireland (just like all teams) have been at this stuff too.

fitz

swiwi_ wrote: »

You will not believe what I saw. Sexton was pinned, with his hand being held as tightly as a mother bringing her little boy across a busy road. Sexton tried to break free, but the vice was too tight. He appealed to the touch judge, who was all of two metres away. The touch judge actually tried to pull the English player's hand away, but he failed. England scored and there was no call-back for an Irish penalty. Shocking stuff.


Pot calling the kettle black...

Jeepers, Ireland (just like all teams) have been at this stuff too.

I know everyone does it, but when a touch judge has to take it on himself to stick his hand in and the player still doesn't let go, why would he not penalise the player? It's a bit of an odd one to be fair...

Heres Johnny

Big Ireland fan here. Currently play too. Will all those referencing forward passes and referee decisions on tackles/yellow cards lose the sour grapes. And focusing on one selection of Henshaw at full back. When my team plays and loses as we often do we make a point not to mention referee. Ever. Blaming refs is not taking ownership. Not admitting we have to improve, or have a change in tactics or something to ensure it doesnt happen again.
Ireland were so far behind England on the day they didn't deserve to win and if those decisions had all went Ireland's way England would have found another way to win.
It's a rare thing a team so dominant like England were on the day lose the match.

Although the result and performance is still raw, let's get behind them and hope someone takes out England then we still have a shot at the championship.

troyzer

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Big Ireland fan here. Currently play too. Will all those referencing forward passes and referee decisions on tackles/yellow cards lose the sour grapes. And focusing on one selection of Henshaw at full back. When my team plays and loses as we often do we make a point not to mention referee. Ever. Blaming refs is not taking ownership. Not admitting we have to improve, or have a change in tactics or something to ensure it doesnt happen again.
Ireland were so far behind England on the day they didn't deserve to win and if those decisions had all went Ireland's way England would have found another way to win.
It's a rare thing a team so dominant like England were on the day lose the match.

Although the result and performance is still raw, let's get behind them and hope someone takes out England then we still have a shot at the championship.

I don't think many people are seriously complaining about the referee. Like any game, a few decisions were questionable but only losers ever get hung up on them.

Frank Castle

troyzer wrote: »

I don't think many people are seriously complaining about the referee. Like any game, a few decisions were questionable but only losers ever get hung up on them.

Honestly I think the referee killed the game off with some of his decisions.
Wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game at all, but did make a difference to the tempo of the last 15-20mins.

Pussyhands

fitz wrote: »

I know everyone does it, but when a touch judge has to take it on himself to stick his hand in and the player still doesn't let go, why would he not penalise the player? It's a bit of an odd one to be fair...

I don't see the problem with this. It didn't lead to a score. Sexton was only going to stand on that side anyways and the ball didn't go there.

It happens in every game where players commit offences and the referee tells them not to do it or to go back and they don't get penalised.

Most common is where players think the ball is out and they charge over and have their hands on the ball while looking at the ref, ref will say no, leave it, but doesn't give a penalty.

Anjobe

Heres Johnny wrote: »

It's a rare thing a team so dominant like England were on the day lose the match.

As rare as a hen's tooth...unless that team is France!

Shefwedfan

swiwi_ wrote: »

You will not believe what I saw. Sexton was pinned, with his hand being held as tightly as a mother bringing her little boy across a busy road. Sexton tried to break free, but the vice was too tight. He appealed to the touch judge, who was all of two metres away. The touch judge actually tried to pull the English player's hand away, but he failed. England scored and there was no call-back for an Irish penalty. Shocking stuff.


Pot calling the kettle black...

Jeepers, Ireland (just like all teams) have been at this stuff too.

I seen that, nothing in it....

razorblunt

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I seen that, nothing in it....

In fairness it is a bit much when the AR has to come on to try and take the hand off a defending player, even still Itoje held on for a while longer before letting go.

Shefwedfan

razorblunt wrote: »

In fairness it is a bit much when the AR has to come on to try and take the hand off a defending player, even still Itoje held on for a while longer before letting go.

Sexton gave him a nice few digs on the arm.....maybe Sexton needs to up the weights so he could bust his arm next time

evil_seed

OldRio wrote: »

For how domiment England were their lead was only 4 points with 15 minutes to go.

And it was 0-0 for a bit too :rolleyes:. They were dominant and pulled away in the end, after ya know, being so dominant.

frosty123

don't think ireland played particularly badly, its just that england were so good

they came with a game plan and they implemented it to near perfection

TheCitizen

rm75 wrote: »

Disagree,ultimately fans are they're to be entertained. You go to sports games in the US and you have lads coming to your seat selling beers.

This "real fan" snobbery you get from time to time irritates me, people are entitled to have a few beers if they wish as long as they are not making a nuisance of themselves.

You don't need a beer to be entertained. In the US a lot of them eat and drink like pigs and it shows. Ban bringing beer to the seats. If you want to drink go sit in a pub.

Edit;

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/billy-keane-ten-minutes-before-kick-off-and-the-aviva-was-almost-empty-the-irish-players-deserve-better-than-that-37779116.html

Article above addresses the disgraceful lack of interest from a lot of the crowd that were given tickets. It wasn't mentioned by the Virgin Media commentators, it should have been.

Hugh_C

Yamanoto wrote: »

Puzzled me why we persisted with the box kick when:

a) we got zero return from it, England lapped it up

b) Murray's radar was clearly a bit askew most of the afternoon

This!

I was yelling at the TV every time Murray was lining up for another fcúking box kick, just throwing away position and getting no territorial advantage.

It just confuses me as a tactic (especially when it's patently not working) to the extent that I was googling it last night. Murray was out by about 2 seconds hang time and about 10m out of range. I fcekin hate box kicks at the best of times, but Saturday was atrocious.

Pussyhands

The rugby crowd for these big games is full of fairweather fans just going for the day out with the boys, wearing flatcaps and scarves and beer in hand. Back in the New Zealand game there was cries from the crowd for knock ons and booing of the ref for giving the correct calls. They had no idea of the rules largely.

It's the same thing in concerts like Bruce Springsteen. People will know the few main songs and the rest go past them. It's a status thing.

0 atmosphere at the game.

Raisins

On the people being late to their seats, a part of the problem (it’s just a factor) that the Aviva is the worst stadium in the six nations. Depending on the section, if you leave when the ref blows his whistle you could actually spend the entire half time in a queue for the jacks and have to leave the queue to be back to your seat in time for the start of play. I see people with kids and it’s a nightmare if a child wants a drink or to go to the bathroom. That’s not true for every section but in general the stadium is a cramped nightmare to get in and get around. Camparing it to Croker is chalk and cheese.

errlloyd

I'm gonna go ahead and be contrarian to the posters complaining about the fans and say I think the way tickets are distributed for the match is as close to optimum as the IRFU can get.

Ultimately tickets never go on public sale. They mostly get distributed through Rugby Clubs and the Union to people who coach, play, referee and volunteer in running the sport at a grass roots level every weekend.

Yes, some go to sponsors, yes some go to the club presidents brother in law or work partners and yes a few end up on resale sites. But the vast majority of people who I know who were at the game were players, referees and coaches. It's their reward for all the work they do for the year. If they're not drunk enough to sing the fields at 4:45 on a Saturday and then find it hard to get into a game that wasn't that exciting and we're clearly losing, than who cares.

I'm a massive fan, I've thousands of posts about rugby, I watch every provincial game and go to a good amount of home games and 2 or 3 away games every year. But I haven't darkened the door of a rugby club in years and because of that I've only ever been to one home 6 nations game. If I was there on Saturday I'd have been pissed drunk and singing from start to finish. But I knew 30 or 40 people there, and almost every single one of them deserved to be more there more than I did. So I am okay with it.

walshb

frosty123 wrote: »

don't think ireland played particularly badly, its just that england were so good

they came with a game plan and they implemented it to near perfection

Exactly

Separately:

Only ignorant uneducated fans could not see a possible defeat against England....We are a great team, but so are many other teams....England, home of rugby, 50 plus million population, with a far deeper tradition of the sport, and a far deeper pool to dip into...Just to reiterate, it was England we played, not fooking Somalia!

OldRio

evil_seed wrote: »

And it was 0-0 for a bit too :rolleyes:. They were dominant and pulled away in the end, after ya know, being so dominant.

Thanks. I must have missed that. 😁

TheCitizen

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm gonna go ahead and be contrarian to the posters complaining about the fans and say I think the way tickets are distributed for the match is as close to optimum as the IRFU can get.

Ultimately tickets never go on public sale. They mostly get distributed through Rugby Clubs and the Union to people who coach, play, referee and volunteer in running the sport at a grass roots level every weekend.

Yes, some go to sponsors, yes some go to the club presidents brother in law or work partners and yes a few end up on resale sites. But the vast majority of people who I know who were at the game were players, referees and coaches. It's their reward for all the work they do for the year. If they're not drunk enough to sing the fields at 4:45 on a Saturday and then find it hard to get into a game that wasn't that exciting and we're clearly losing, than who cares.

I'm a massive fan, I've thousands of posts about rugby, I watch every provincial game and go to a good amount of home games and 2 or 3 away games every year. But I haven't darkened the door of a rugby club in years and because of that I've only ever been to one home 6 nations game. If I was there on Saturday I'd have been pissed drunk and singing from start to finish. But I knew 30 or 40 people there, and almost every single one of them deserved to be more there more than I did. So I am okay with it.

You're ok with punters not taking their seats in time and giving the team the advantage of home support? I'm not ok with it, I think it's a disgrace.

When Ireland go to Murrayfield and to Cardiff they will know they are the away team.

Shefwedfan

TheCitizen wrote: »

You're ok with punters not taking their seats in time and giving the team the advantage of home support? I'm not ok with it, I think it's a disgrace.

When Ireland go to Murrayfield and to Cardiff they will know they are the away team.

Talk about over reactions about 1 loss.....


Now it is the fans not providing the correct support, how many 6 nations games have we lost in the Aviva?

TheCitizen

Raisins wrote: »

On the people being late to their seats, a part of the problem (it’s just a factor) that the Aviva is the worst stadium in the six nations. Depending on the section, if you leave when the ref blows his whistle you could actually spend the entire half time in a queue for the jacks and have to leave the queue to be back to your seat in time for the start of play. I see people with kids and it’s a nightmare if a child wants a drink or to go to the bathroom. That’s not true for every section but in general the stadium is a cramped nightmare to get in and get around. Camparing it to Croker is chalk and cheese.

So now we're to believe they were late to their seats cos they were in the toilet:pac:

Losty Dublin

Pussyhands wrote: »

Back in the New Zealand game there was cries from the crowd for knock ons and booing of the ref for giving the correct calls. They had no idea of the rules largely.

Nor do you

OldRio

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm gonna go ahead and be contrarian to the posters complaining about the fans and say I think the way tickets are distributed for the match is as close to optimum as the IRFU can get.

Ultimately tickets never go on public sale. They mostly get distributed through Rugby Clubs and the Union to people who coach, play, referee and volunteer in running the sport at a grass roots level every weekend.

Yes, some go to sponsors, yes some go to the club presidents brother in law or work partners and yes a few end up on resale sites. But the vast majority of people who I know who were at the game were players, referees and coaches. It's their reward for all the work they do for the year. If they're not drunk enough to sing the fields at 4:45 on a Saturday and then find it hard to get into a game that wasn't that exciting and we're clearly losing, than who cares.

I'm a massive fan, I've thousands of posts about rugby, I watch every provincial game and go to a good amount of home games and 2 or 3 away games every year. But I haven't darkened the door of a rugby club in years and because of that I've only ever been to one home 6 nations game. If I was there on Saturday I'd have been pissed drunk and singing from start to finish. But I knew 30 or 40 people there, and almost every single one of them deserved to be more there more than I did. So I am okay with it.

If the tickets go to the grass roots how on earth do we have a situation like Saturday?
How are people who have little interest in Rugby getting tickets?

ELM327

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Nor do you

Those people are a law unto themselves.

Zzippy

TheCitizen wrote: »

You're ok with punters not taking their seats in time and giving the team the advantage of home support? I'm not ok with it, I think it's a disgrace.

When Ireland go to Murrayfield and to Cardiff they will know they are the away team.

The WRU trialled a no-alcohol section in the Principality stadium in November as the situation was said to be out of hand with people going back and forth to the bar, and widespread drunkenness. The situation as described in the Aviva on Saturday is regularly complained about by Welsh rugby fans on Twitter. It is a problem common to many sports and stadia, not just the Aviva.

Shefwedfan

TheCitizen wrote: »

So now we're to believe they were late to their seats cos they were in the toilet:pac:

Why don't you do up a list on how to be the correct supporter and you can do up posters and stick them around the ground in the Aviva


Reminds to the people who might not know the rules of "supporting Ireland rugby in the Aviva"

TheCitizen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Talk about over reactions about 1 loss.....


Now it is the fans not providing the correct support, how many 6 nations games have we lost in the Aviva?

Where did I say that?

Ireland lost to the better team, no complaints. England got revenge for when Ireland beat them comfortably in Twickenham last season.

The chat about the crowd is a different matter entirely.

TheCitizen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why don't you do up a list on how to be the correct supporter and you can do up posters and stick them around the ground in the Aviva


Reminds to the people who might not know the rules of "supporting Ireland rugby in the Aviva"

LOL. Posters getting defensive about punters who can't be arsed to take their seats on time.:pac:

Former Former

The IRFU have worked long and hard to make rugby a day out and not just a sports match.

Corporate tickets and people dropping 20-30 quid at the bar and food stalls are exactly what they need to balance the books.

It's not going to change. It may just be time to suck it up and move on.

Shefwedfan

TheCitizen wrote: »

Where did I say that?

You're ok with punters not taking their seats in time and giving the team the advantage of home support? I'm not ok with it, I think it's a disgrace.

When Ireland go to Murrayfield and to Cardiff they will know they are the away team.

Is that not what you said?

Losty Dublin

OldRio wrote: »

If the tickets go to the grass roots how on earth do we have a situation like Saturday?
How are people who have little interest in Rugby getting tickets?

They don't; that's the thing. Win and the aura in the ground would have been electric; there'd have been more of them there than there was grandfathers who fought in the GPO in 1916. Lose and it's flat as a pancake but sure the real fans would have made it the craic win lose or draw :rolleyes:

There's little point in paying heed to those complaining about not getting tickets at this rate as they'll complain on any social media platform that they can, once it's easy accessed to take their whinging. Can't get tickets and it's the fault of corporates, banks, suits, cartels, IRFU Supporters club, the EU, Fianna Fail, GAA, FAI, Brexit etc etc.

Note that these "real fans" never blame themselves for their not getting tickets, nor do you ever see them at other grounds or clubs over the course of a season. Note also that the FAI had the exact same issue during the 90's yet your average LOI ground remained almost empty on any given match days.

errlloyd

OldRio wrote: »

If the tickets go to the grass roots how on earth do we have a situation like Saturday?
How are people who have little interest in Rugby getting tickets?

I think the problem of "ill informed" fans is probably overstated. But even if it's not, a grass roots ref can bring his partner or non rugby loving friend. I agree with other posters, the fans do need some help from the pitch and it was a hard game to get into.

What I think you're missing is that from what I can tell the knock on benefits of how the tickets are distributed are huge. I think Clubs do well out of it, and I think deserving people who give a lot to the game are rewarded. Some posters on here are more involved in their clubs than I am, and maybe they can confirm my belief or maybe they'll shoot it down. But I can't see any way for the IRFU to get more a better crowd in than the way they do. The tickets don't go on public sale at all!

troyzer

errlloyd wrote: »

OldRio wrote: »

If the tickets go to the grass roots how on earth do we have a situation like Saturday?
How are people who have little interest in Rugby getting tickets?

I think the problem of "ill informed" fans is probably overstated. But even if it's not, a grass roots ref can bring his partner or non rugby loving friend. I agree with other posters, the fans do need some help from the pitch and it was a hard game to get into.

What I think you're missing is that from what I can tell the knock on benefits of how the tickets are distributed are huge. I think Clubs do well out of it, and I think deserving people who give a lot to the game are rewarded. Some posters on here are more involved in their clubs than I am, and maybe they can confirm my belief or maybe they'll shoot it down. But I can't see any way for the IRFU to get more a better crowd in than the way they do. The tickets don't go on public sale at all!

I got mine on public sale.

TheCitizen

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Is that not what you said?

Yes but that’s not the same as saying that England won because half the crowd couldn’t be arsed taking their seats on time.

facehugger99

Raisins wrote: »

On the people being late to their seats, a part of the problem (it’s just a factor) that the Aviva is the worst stadium in the six nations. Depending on the section, if you leave when the ref blows his whistle you could actually spend the entire half time in a queue for the jacks and have to leave the queue to be back to your seat in time for the start of play. I see people with kids and it’s a nightmare if a child wants a drink or to go to the bathroom. That’s not true for every section but in general the stadium is a cramped nightmare to get in and get around. Camparing it to Croker is chalk and cheese.

Doesn't really explain the 30-odd thousand empty seats when the teams took to the field 10 minutes before kick-off.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm gonna go ahead and be contrarian to the posters complaining about the fans and say I think the way tickets are distributed for the match is as close to optimum as the IRFU can get.

Ultimately tickets never go on public sale. They mostly get distributed through Rugby Clubs and the Union to people who coach, play, referee and volunteer in running the sport at a grass roots level every weekend.

Yes, some go to sponsors, yes some go to the club presidents brother in law or work partners and yes a few end up on resale sites. But the vast majority of people who I know who were at the game were players, referees and coaches. It's their reward for all the work they do for the year. If they're not drunk enough to sing the fields at 4:45 on a Saturday and then find it hard to get into a game that wasn't that exciting and we're clearly losing, than who cares.

I'm a massive fan, I've thousands of posts about rugby, I watch every provincial game and go to a good amount of home games and 2 or 3 away games every year. But I haven't darkened the door of a rugby club in years and because of that I've only ever been to one home 6 nations game. If I was there on Saturday I'd have been pissed drunk and singing from start to finish. But I knew 30 or 40 people there, and almost every single one of them deserved to be more there more than I did. So I am okay with it.

I don't see this at all. Most of the people I know who go are there for day out. My housemate uttered those exact words. I had to bite my tongue. I think the ticket sales are a disgrace. Far, far too many are given to corporations which are then passed on to disinterested clients and disinterested family members. I've made peace with this but if you're gonna claim otherwise... sorry its not the reality I see. Sure why wouldn't the IRFU sell a ton of tickets to Google at a high price. I don't even try to get tickets to Ireland matches because its so difficult and I'm at almost every Leinster match.