Does you company offer remote working?

smacl

moycullen14 wrote: »

If an org properly supports remote working then it's a small step for them to outsource development completely - setting up remote offices in cheaper locations. Physical presence cuts both ways.

Makes a huge amount of sense all round when you think about it. People working close to where they live in decent accommodation and nice surroundings with minimal commute. Once you can effectively manage remote office based staff, there is no reason to base them in a major city unless they're providing a service that is needed at that location. As an employer you could also get much more for your salary bill on this basis because you're the one ultimately paying for the overpriced accommodation and associated commute costs.

IMO, there's also a lot to be said for using highly skilled short term contractors working off-site rather than FTEs for many development tasks.

yop

9 years working remotely for a lot of different companies and roles.
I was commuting from Westport to Dublin for close on 2 years almost daily but lucky that then when 2 of the companies offered me remote. I then built a separate office space and that has worked out since.
I now commute twice per week to Galway, its 1 hour in the morning (Leave at 6am) and 1.5 hours in the evening. I find when onsite I do less work but more F2F discussion/chat.
I usually work 9-10 hours a day at home, but while I'm onsite for 10 hours I probably do 8 hours with breaks, breakfast, lunch etc.

What I'm finding is that companies in Ireland aren't advertising the fact that u can do remote, so its hard to gauge if they will offer it. In the role I'm in at the moment it would be harder to find.
But in development roles, which I want to get back to, its more common. UK seems to offer more chances of remote.

Franz Von Peppercorn

1-2 days from home. More than that bores me a bit. I like the bustle of the city centre and going for lunch with collleagues or other friends who work close by.

I also like sleep though and don’t like the commute hence the 1-2 days.

counterpointaud

Yes, my employer has project teams made up of people all across Europe and the US, so going to the office is completely optional. I WFH 100% apart from team meetups 3 times a year in rotating European cities (rotated for fairness of travelling time imposed).

In my case, there are a few people on the same project, in the same local office, but team communication is encouraged to take place on Slack anyway so the only reason to go in is if you prefer to work there, which I don't.

I get its not for everyone, I am just more productive working from home, not sure why. It isn't as if the commute is stopping me either, the office is a few minutes drive away.

When I started there 4ish years ago, this arrangement seemed quite rare. Going by this thread, it seems to be becoming more common, which I think is great.

Earthhorse

In my old job you could work from home one day a week. But really, the whole thing was unsupervised so you could work from home as often as you liked. It was great not having to take a day off if an electrician were coming over or you were expecting a delivery and I loved the fact that it was unsupervised because it felt like the company was treating me like an adult and a not a child who needed minding.

The policy isn’t as clear cut in my new job but I think I’ve made a favorable enough impression to ask about availing of it before my probation period is over.

Like a lot of people here I found one day at home a week was enough and it actually made me appreciate going in to the office more (it was good to mix it up). Many of the devs in my old job were scattered across Europe so a lot of them were effectively working remotely anyway.

It’s a really cool benefit that costs the company almost nothing and in my opinion will become standard in a lot of workplaces soon.

jobless

i work nearly exclusively from home and although i could earn more if i moved id be reluctant to give it up.... 2 hrs+ commute a day saved plus factoring in saved commute costs i wouldnt be that much better off...

Its a great feeling on a sunday night knowing i dont have to battle my way along the m50 on monday morning

devlinio

I'd like the option to work from home in my next job. I'm currently on the job hunt, so this would really sway me towards a company.\

I'd only like 1-2 days per week. I like being in the office, getting to know my colleagues ect. But I also like being at home.

14ned

devlinio wrote: »

I'd only like 1-2 days per week. I like being in the office, getting to know my colleagues ect. But I also like being at home.

I'm in the coworking space in Mallow town. We are all each single person companies . We still have coffee and pastry mornings on Friday, bump into one another getting coffee and eating lunch, and so on.

Something quite nice is how disparate our jobs are, so we can talk about our work and it's actually interesting. We have everything from EU grant applyers through to pharma through to ESB grid maintenance.

If you do find a remote role, look into working from a coworking space if you really want the office feeling, and be near stuff like gyms, baristas etc. Most towns have one nowadays.

Niall

Atomic Pineapple

Mr.S wrote: »

I can't think why employers don't allow their staff to work from home in 2019. It's always one of my first questions when interviewing, I wouldn't bother if they didn't allow it.

It depends on the context, for many roles there can be drawbacks to allowing work from home. Creativity and innovation go down, social communication practices counter-intuitively become more complex, paradoxically monitoring increases, and over time there is a risk of deskilling through detachment.

I used to work from home 100% of the time and it was detrimental to my skill building and career development. I'd now turn down an offer from a company that actively promotes working from home. But as I said it depends on the context, for me, there are too many negative aspects of 100% remote work, for others, it will be the opposite.

BrokenArrows

14ned wrote: »

I'm in the coworking space in Mallow town. We are all each single person companies . We still have coffee and pastry mornings on Friday, bump into one another getting coffee and eating lunch, and so on.

Something quite nice is how disparate our jobs are, so we can talk about our work and it's actually interesting. We have everything from EU grant applyers through to pharma through to ESB grid maintenance.

If you do find a remote role, look into working from a coworking space if you really want the office feeling, and be near stuff like gyms, baristas etc. Most towns have one nowadays.

Niall

Seems like an unnecessary expense. How much are you paying per month to be there?

Bawnmore

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Seems like an unnecessary expense. How much are you paying per month to be there?

As an alternative to this, some days I'll work from BOI Workbench which sounds like the same setup but with no cost/contract. I'll drop in and work from there for a change of scenery sometimes even though we have an office close by to it.

14ned

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Seems like an unnecessary expense. How much are you paying per month to be there?

I have preschool children, so it's an unavoidable expense.

€325/month for a private room inc VAT. Hotdesking is significantly cheaper, but I come with a lot of custom equipment.

Niall

smacl

14ned wrote: »

I'm in the coworking space in Mallow town. We are all each single person companies . We still have coffee and pastry mornings on Friday, bump into one another getting coffee and eating lunch, and so on.

Something quite nice is how disparate our jobs are, so we can talk about our work and it's actually interesting. We have everything from EU grant applyers through to pharma through to ESB grid maintenance.

If you do find a remote role, look into working from a coworking space if you really want the office feeling, and be near stuff like gyms, baristas etc. Most towns have one nowadays.

Niall

I reckon this is something that will potentially boom in coming years and is the way to go, as you can easily add on facilities like meeting rooms, phone answering services, etc.. while minimizing other costs. One of the reasons I moved house some years ago was when I realized I was paying more in rent for an office for 3 person company in Dublin than I was on my mortgage. New house, built an office out back and all is well but a decent serviced co-working space would be a fantastic option for full time remote working. Downside is broadband roll-out, I struggle as it is on 100/10mbps ADSL and while I'd probably enjoy a more rural environment, the communications infrastructure is appalling in so many parts of this country.

smacl

14ned wrote: »

€325/month for a private room inc VAT. Hotdesking is significantly cheaper, but I come with a lot of custom equipment.

Good price and who wants to hot desk? A room with a door (and a window or two!) is minimum requirements in my book.

14ned

smacl wrote: »

I reckon this is something that will potentially boom in coming years and is the way to go, as you can easily add on facilities like meeting rooms, phone answering services, etc.. while minimizing other costs.

Most coworking spaces have breakout rooms, meeting rooms, social rooms etc. This one I'm in has all of those.

One thing you can't do is have members of the public come in though, as there isn't insurance to cover public liability. That basically reduces those here to professionals who don't need to see people. We're a bit over half full, no idea if the landlord is getting ROI though.

One of the reasons I moved house some years ago was when I realized I was paying more in rent for an office for 3 person company in Dublin than I was on my mortgage. New house, built an office out back and all is well but a decent serviced co-working space would be a fantastic option for full time remote working. Downside is broadband roll-out, I struggle as it is on 100/10mbps ADSL and while I'd probably enjoy a more rural environment, the communications infrastructure is appalling in so many parts of this country.

Best you can get in Mallow town without paying silly money is 400Mbit. Which is what we have shared in the coworking building.

I have to personally say that the 70Mbit VDSL I have into my home out in the sticks is more than plenty. I would be fine on 50Mbit to be honest. Upload is decent, 20Mbit, enough for my needs. Pricey for what it is, though my business pays it ex VAT pre tax, so it's half the effective cost than the sticker price.

Niall

14ned

smacl wrote: »

Good price and who wants to hot desk? A room with a door (and a window or two!) is minimum requirements in my book.

Here's it's about a 50/50 split. Hotdesking is surprisingly popular.

But I've noticed the hotdesking folks basically spend their days on their laptops and ringing people. So if you like open plan offices with noise, and your work doesn't suffer for it, then I guess it suits.

(I know one of our hotdeskers is a USA wedding planner, another manages ESB grids, don't know about the others)

Niall

bswan

smacl wrote: »

I reckon this is something that will potentially boom in coming years and is the way to go, as you can easily add on facilities like meeting rooms, phone answering services, etc.. while minimizing other costs. One of the reasons I moved house some years ago was when I realized I was paying more in rent for an office for 3 person company in Dublin than I was on my mortgage. New house, built an office out back and all is well but a decent serviced co-working space would be a fantastic option for full time remote working. Downside is broadband roll-out, I struggle as it is on 100/10mbps ADSL and while I'd probably enjoy a more rural environment, the communications infrastructure is appalling in so many parts of this country.

Co-working spaces popping up everywhere in London these days

LimeFruitGum

My last employer were very pro remote working. I was a line manager there and I was offered a remote contract upfront. They had two offices in Dublin, but they’re tiny. Also none of my project team were in Ireland, so I had no reason to go in.

I have to say, I found remote team management frustrating. My direct reports were recent graduates and they could have done with someone on site for on-the-spot support. They were all in different time zones, as was my client. I’d prefer to line manage on site with a couple of remotes, instead of an all-remote team.

Sure, I had no commute, but I was far working longer hours. Often, I would be online when my partner went to work in town, and I would be on the US client calls by the time he came home. It comes with the territory of the industry, but I realize I would prefer to do a couple of days in the office, so it forces me to stay social and make myself known in the company.

pauliebdub

Nothing at all in my current place, a well known managed services company not even Flexi time.

rn

There's a legal obligation on the company that allow wfh that the home office space is compliant from a h&s point of view in Ireland. Those shared office spaces solve a lot of potential problems.

There's also legal implications for employees who reside in another country from their ordinary place of work. Basically companies are legally obliged to operate in that country they have facilitated the employee to live in. That usually implies big costs for the employer.

smacl

rn wrote: »

There's also legal implications for employees who reside in another country from their ordinary place of work. Basically companies are legally obliged to operate in that country they have facilitated the employee to live in. That usually implies big costs for the employer.

Usual solution to that taken by smaller companies is to set the remote workers up as long term external contractors rather than FTEs.

hognef

smacl wrote: »

Usual solution to that taken by smaller companies is to set the remote workers up as long term external contractors rather than FTEs.

As stated previously on this thread, it's dead easy, and costs nothing, to register an employer for income tax / prsi in Ireland.

smacl

hognef wrote: »

As stated previously on this thread, it's dead easy, and costs nothing, to register an employer for income tax / prsi in Ireland.

I think once you've remote workers in various different countries, your choices as an employer are either take time to understand the employment laws of each country or get the remote worker to become self employed and make it their issue. For a small company the latter is much easier and many developers working remotely full time will be set up as contractors or have limited companies. If you register as an employer for income tax / prsi in Ireland you have to keep local accounts and make revenue returns which is a cost.

14ned

smacl wrote: »

I think once you've remote workers in various different countries, your choices as an employer are either take time to understand the employment laws of each country or get the remote worker to become self employed and make it their issue. For a small company the latter is much easier and many developers working remotely full time will be set up as contractors or have limited companies. If you register as an employer for income tax / prsi in Ireland you have to keep local accounts and make revenue returns which is a cost.

Absolutely right. Foreign companies really, strongly, do not want to have to care about weird foreign (to them) jurisdictions.

Let me give the discussion thread an example. Part of my new work contract is that I get paid shares in the startup. These shares, under US tax law, only have to gain a value at the point of the company having a SEC event i.e. when somebody sells a share.

The company I am working for hasn't had such a SEC event since it was founded. So nobody, genuinely, has a clue what these shares are actually worth.

Unfortunately Irish tax law considers payment in shares as equal to income. So you must pay income tax on the cash equivalent of what the shares are worth at the point of receipt.

Except, nobody know what they are worth. Worse, the US startup strongly does not want to put a value to them in writing, because that would be a SEC event with consequences. So they refuse to put a price to them until they are legally obliged to do so under US law.

This creates a headache for me, so I'm hiring in a tax expert, so we can go petition Revenue to carve out some treatment of this income which won't upset them and land me with a hefty penalty. The problem ultimately is that in the US, nobody pays tax on receiving shares. You pay it on selling the shares i.e. capital gains. So you don't even have to file with the tax authorities being paid in shares in the US for small companies, because it's not a taxable event.

Meanwhile, in Ireland, you do pay tax on receiving shares. But nobody can or will put a valuation on them. So what does one declare to Irish Revenue?

It's this sort of problem which foreign employers want to go away. Registering with local governments creates that kind of headache, which is only worth it if you're employing lots of locals. Contracting them in makes it go away, and pushes the problem onto the contractor, who is usually far better placed - and incentivised - to find a solution.

Niall

_daniel

Yes. Most of our tech team work remotely.

As long as the work is completed, it's all cool.

My company's idea is that if you can't trust them to work remotely, why hire them in the first place.

Atomic Pineapple

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Seems like an unnecessary expense. How much are you paying per month to be there?

14ned wrote: »

I'm in the coworking space in Mallow town. We are all each single person companies . We still have coffee and pastry mornings on Friday, bump into one another getting coffee and eating lunch, and so on.

Something quite nice is how disparate our jobs are, so we can talk about our work and it's actually interesting. We have everything from EU grant applyers through to pharma through to ESB grid maintenance.

The highlighted parts offer intangible value that is hard to comprehend and impossible to calculate but could end up being the most important "ingredient" for the success of a company.

_daniel wrote: »

My company's idea is that if you can't trust them to work remotely, why hire them in the first place.

Interestingly, some companies only allow remote working because technology has made it easier to monitor people. Sometimes management doesn't even realise they are monitoring their remote teams so closely. I was recently talking to a management team, in conjunction with some research, and I had to point out to them that they were tracking their team's "online" time through the "communication" tools provided. They were unconsciously monitoring and then unwittingly using this in their evaluation of employees.

rn

I'm surprised it was unconscious monitoring and I'd wager it was definitely intended to be part of the end of year evaluation, even if not discussed with the employee.

It's not as simple as making all your staff contractors and absolving you of all responsibilities h&s wise. In Ireland the contacting company is still responsible. And must absolve all h&s costs and risks.

Fenster

My current employer offers strong WFH for programmers-four days a week for me, enough that I hope to move out of Dublin next month.

Recently I went interviewing to get a feel for the job market and keep my skills up today. In applying around, I found that while most employers are aware of work from home, few want to grant it. They're happy to use it to entice programmers so long as they don't have to follow through. One or another has told me:

• "Oh, you have to work in the office for six months before we grant it."
• "There's a process where you have to get cleared by X."
• "Oh, we might offer it if you have a real need."
• "Oh yeah, X had it when Y."

Lots of mentions without anything concrete. It's skeezy.

14ned

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

The highlighted parts offer intangible value that is hard to comprehend and impossible to calculate but could end up being the most important "ingredient" for the success of a company.

That assumes there is a synergy to be had. You're not wrong that for small companies, it can be useful for someone from payroll to just happen to be talking to someone from engineering that a cost saving can be discovered. This sort of thing can lead to much lower costs for small orgs, and more nimbleness.

But in terms of creating a successful startup, it's not all about cost reduction. You also have to create the right mix of rapid development of software which isn't so awful it's unmaintainable. And I hate to be blunt, but ultimately you need to hire the right people, which usually involves paying people what they're actually worth.

At the startup I've just joined, they're paying twice the going rate for senior software developers, and fully remote. Needless to say the calibre of developer there is excellent, and the software being written is a good balance of fast delivery without the crap code you usually see in startups.

We shall see if it pans out long term, but so far I'm finding it a good bet that these share options might not be worth nothing, for once. They have doubled revenues every year for eight years now and are debt free, so far so good.

Niall

14ned

Fenster wrote: »

Lots of mentions without anything concrete. It's skeezy.

I agree what you mentioned is very common in Ireland. And it is irritating.

I view anything not written into a contract as equal to no remote working provision. I've said so, stuck to my guns, and if they want you badly enough they'll figure something out. A friend of mine just moved to Microsoft, not a place full of remote workers, and got remote working written into his contract. Funnily enough, he actually likes to work onsite, but for him it was proof that they really wanted him and weren't just saying so.

Niall