ESB eCars

unkel

Exactly. What do they mean there are supply limitations? They're the bloody ESB / Eirgrid, get more power in! They have no problem providing like 1MW of power on site to other - paying - charge point providers like Ionity and Tesla.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Exactly. What do they mean there are supply limitations? They're the bloody ESB / Eirgrid, get more power in! They have no problem providing like 1MW of power on site to other - paying - charge point providers like Ionity and Tesla.

Due to the separating out of the vertically integrated ESB, I wouldnt be surprised if it camedown to red tape... ie Ecars have to pay eirgrid to upgrade the supply but ecars have no budget left or something.

liamog

We saw how long it took for Ionity to get turned on in Kill, and their were reported complaints from CircleK and Applegreen that ESB Networks were slowing down any planned connections. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the ESB Networks division that's encouraging so many dual AC installs. At least they seem to treat eCars just as badly.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

We saw how long it took for Ionity to get turned on in Kill, and their were reported complaints from CircleK and Applegreen that ESB Networks were slowing down any planned connections. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the ESB Networks division that's encouraging so many dual AC installs. At least they seem to treat eCars just as badly.

The funny thing about that is a single two headed ecars 22kW unit needs 44kW total supply which is nearly 50kW.


There's not that much in it unless you're looking for a multiple of 150kW sites like Tesla or Ionity


This is why suppliers generally band together in other countries to save on initial power costs. You'll often see co-located chargers. Especially in Norway where it's not uncommon to see some 50kW-150kW from Fortum/gronn kontakt, colocated with 4-6 Ionity HPCs and a supercharger site to boot.

MJohnston

unkel wrote: »

Exactly. What do they mean there are supply limitations? They're the bloody ESB / Eirgrid, get more power in!

Surely there are physical distribution requirements that couldn't be just changed overnight?

the_amazing_raisin

I suspect it comes down to money at the end of the day. I'm not sure what the installation costs are of getting a 1MW supply but I wouldn't be surprised if they were higher here than in say Germany.

ESB have no competition so there's no incentive for them to lower prices, and it's likely that other charging networks don't want to pay extra

the_amazing_raisin

MJohnston wrote: »

Surely there are physical distribution requirements that couldn't be just changed overnight?

Yes and no, it's basically creating additional connections to the medium or high voltage grids.

The customer bears the cost of these changes which could involve laying extra cable or more overhead wires, along with more transformers and other equipment. So it can get pretty expensive

So yes, it's not exactly easy, but they're not exactly proceeding with breakneck speed. It's been several year and there's no sign of additional infrastructure going in for more chargers.

And remember, this is the same ESB that said the grid can easily handle 1 million EVs

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Yes and no, it's basically creating additional connections to the medium or high voltage grids.

The customer bears the cost of these changes which could involve laying extra cable or more overhead wires, along with more transformers and other equipment. So it can get pretty expensive

So yes, it's not exactly easy, but they're not exactly proceeding with breakneck speed. It's been several year and there's no sign of additional infrastructure going in for more chargers.

And remember, this is the same ESB that said the grid can easily handle 1 million EVs

I'm sure if you take the data showing the trough in generation at night and the excess avaialble energy compared to the daily peaks, and then compared it to the average journeys taken, the data would show that the network could handle 1m EVs.


Thats the great thing about data, it can show whatever you want.

AndyBoBandy

ELM327 wrote: »

Especially in Norway where it's not uncommon to see some 50kW-150kW from Fortum/gronn kontakt, colocated with 4-6 Ionity HPCs and a supercharger site to boot.

I watched a new Bjorn video today (2021 Model 3 1,000km challenge), and he pulled into a shopping centre for a charge (the 44 stall superchargers were quite busy with only 14 available ). Anyway, they had 6 of the 150kW units that look very similar to the ESB 150kW Light speed units (I'm sure they are the same units), but they have 3 cables coming out of them as opposed to ESB's 2, and also the cables look a lot longer than the ESB ones....

This is a small 'hub' by Norwegian standards, yet is more High Power units than on the entire island of Ireland... in a shopping centre carpark...

ELM327

They are the same units as ecars have for HPC and can be configured with 4 plugs to be used simultaneously.
Audi have them at their dealerships with 2 or 3 CCS plugs

graememk

ELM327 wrote: »

They are the same units as ecars have for HPC and can be configured with 4 plugs to be used simultaneously.
Audi have them at their dealerships with 2 or 3 CCS plugs

so 4 plugs, How many can charge at once? All 4?

Do you know if they are something like 2 ccs 2 chademo?

Thats how you build chargers, access from all sides, then it doesnt matter if your car has a front, RH side, LH side, you can park to suit.

liamog

graememk wrote: »

so 4 plugs, How many can charge at once? All 4?

Do you know if they are something like 2 ccs 2 chademo?

Thats how you build chargers, access from all sides, then it doesnt matter if your car has a front, RH side, LH side, you can park to suit.

Here's the brochure https://emobility.delta-emea.com/downloads/Brochure%20-%20UFC%20Ultra%20Fast%20Charger%202019%20-%20EN.PDF.pdf

Automatic dynamic charging.
The dynamic power-split function of the Ultra Fast
Charger will provide all available power (up to
150 kW) to the first car that charges.
As soon as additional electric vehicles are plugged
in, the power of the charger is automatically and
dynamically split among all the charging vehicles.
Some versions of the Ultra Fast Charger can even
serve up to six electric cars, while charging up to
four in parallel.

the_amazing_raisin

Looks like it's still limited to 150kW. It's enough for the current generation of vehicles but not very future proof. I'd kinda want to be at 250-350kW max capacity before splitting it up

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

This is why suppliers generally band together in other countries to save on initial power costs. You'll often see co-located chargers. Especially in Norway where it's not uncommon to see some 50kW-150kW from Fortum/gronn kontakt, colocated with 4-6 Ionity HPCs and a supercharger site to boot.

And probably heavily subsidised by the owners of the restaurants / shops on the charging plazas. Very high margin on all that stuff people buy when they are waiting for a charge!

the_amazing_raisin

unkel wrote: »

And probably heavily subsidised by the owners of the restaurants / shops on the charging plazas. Very high margin on all that stuff people buy when they are waiting for a charge!

Yeah, it'd be nice if those businesses here would get the message and stop installing those damn 22kW pillars

Busman Paddy Lasty

liamog wrote: »

We saw how long it took for Ionity to get turned on in Kill, and their were reported complaints from CircleK and Applegreen that ESB Networks were slowing down any planned connections. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the ESB Networks division that's encouraging so many dual AC installs. At least they seem to treat eCars just as badly.

This is what's confusing. All the above are customers and revenue for ESB Networks so slowing down connections doesnt appear to make sense. Maybe giving 10 million to e-cars (ESB innovation Roi Ltd.) dampened their (ESB Group) enthusiasm a little.

Genuinely would like to know if the 10 million is in staged payments on foot of performance milestones or just a good aul slab of cash.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote:

I'd prefer a rake of 3 & 7kW chargers and a couple of DC

Exactly what I'm saying! And exactly what's happening in Europe.

But beggars aren't choosers, applies double for any infra in the Ireland, unfortunately.

Ecars so far install 50 kW setups, with few exceptions of 75-100, so given 50 kW supply some sort of a AC:DC mix heavily skewed in favour of AC would work best.

Now, is there more than 50 kW supply at that Heuston spot. I mean this is a train station in the capital, please tell me there is, if 2 DC and 6-10 AC can't be there then it won't anywhere else...

McGiver

zg3409 wrote:

Its capitalism vs communism. I expect the tesco rollout is tesco green washing and ESB getting their foot in the door with an exclusive contract for later sale or conversion to 50kW DC units when the financial numbers make sense. If the future of local charging is 50kW DC at supermarkets, they are well placed to own a significant portion of sites.

Norway and Finland must be a communist countries then

I don't think Ecars are capable of any long term planning, they make it up as they go. You're assuming some grand strategy...

Not sure if DC at supermarkets is the future. It's not the case in Norway, the most developed EV market.
Wireless charging could change it, but DC itself wired or wireless is costly. Wireless will be even costlier compared to "the plug" (AC), at least for a while.

liamog

Mod Note: Further discussion of the suitability of DC charging at supermarkets/urban areas should be conducted in the thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114365033

McGiver

ELM327 wrote:

They are the same units as ecars have for HPC and can be configured with 4 plugs to be used simultaneously. Audi have them at their dealerships with 2 or 3 CCS plugs

Yes. And also notice the parking layout!

ELM327

graememk wrote: »

so 4 plugs, How many can charge at once? All 4?

Do you know if they are something like 2 ccs 2 chademo?

Thats how you build chargers, access from all sides, then it doesnt matter if your car has a front, RH side, LH side, you can park to suit.

You can configure what you want when ordering. Generally in Norway it seems that they are predominantly CCS with one chademo plug.
(The ones at audi dealerships, like Ionity, would of course be CCS only)

Black_Knight

All is not quiet.
Over the last 2 weeks about 17 sites have had their old crappy AC units replaced with the new eVolve Smart T AC units.

Glebe Street, Mohill, Leitrim
The Square, Listowel, Kerry
Irish Rail, Mary Street, Arklow, Wicklow
Off Chapel Lane, Callan, Kilkenny
Fair Green Car Park, Off Gaol Road, Kilkenny City, Kilkenny
Market Square, Longford, Longford
Parnell Square West, Outside Rotunda Hospital, Dublin 1
Finglas Road, Dublin, Dublin 11
Greenhills Road, Walkinstown, Dublin 12
Main Street, Bailieborough, Cavan
Kincora Road, Clontarf, Dublin 3
Sportsfield Road, Sneem, Kerry
Thorncastle Street, Ringsend, Dublin 4 X2
Irish Rail Dalkey DART Station, Ardeveehan Road, Dalkey, Dublin X2
Town Centre Car Park, Off Main Street, Roscommon Town, Roscommon X2
Greek Street, Dublin 1
Mark Street, Dublin 2

Only 175+ units to go to replace those unreliable ones.
No fast units though, and they've only delivered 17 of the 50 promised AC->DC upgrades so far. The initial list of AC->DC units to be converted has been completed though, hopefully IEVOA can get a fresh set of plans from ECars.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Parnell Square West was hogged a few days last week. Does being connected but not charging show up in the data?

Black_Knight

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Parnell Square West was hogged a few days last week. Does being connected but not charging show up in the data?

Yes.

Busman Paddy Lasty

Black_Knight wrote: »

Yes.

Great. A hogging penalty could come in if people keep doing that for whatever reason.

Black_Knight

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

Great. A hogging penalty could come in if people keep doing that for whatever reason.

Ideally. Ecars should have data to say port X is occupied, though perhaps not data out of the box to say it's been occupied since a certain time. It's not hard though, I pull that data with rough accuracy (at a site level rather than port level).

The 45 minute overstay fee is easy, since the initiation time is what they record, then 45 minutes later they charge the overstay. With AC it's more difficult unless you put in some massive overstay period like 12 hours

Busman Paddy Lasty

Black_Knight wrote: »

Ideally. Ecars should have data to say port X is occupied, though perhaps not data out of the box to say it's been occupied since a certain time. It's not hard though, I pull that data with rough accuracy (at a site level rather than port level).

The 45 minute overstay fee is easy, since the initiation time is what they record, then 45 minutes later they charge the overstay. With AC it's more difficult unless you put in some massive overstay period like 12 hours

They can bill for it (port level) so they have data at that accuracy somewhere

This was serious hogging though. All day Monday 4th then again Thursday to Sunday! Maybe be even longer.

I wouldn't mind long use while charging. Maybe a grace period of 30 minutes without charging could have an impact.

Black_Knight

Busman Paddy Lasty wrote: »

They can bill for it (port level) so they have data at that accuracy somewhere

This was serious hogging though. All day Monday 4th then again Thursday to Sunday! Maybe be even longer.

I wouldn't mind long use while charging. Maybe a grace period of 30 minutes without charging could have an impact.

I'm sure they have the means to do it, but it's a difficult one. What about train stations? Overstay fees there would likely either make no difference, or bully people into not using them for their purpose.
What about those without home charging? Overnight charging could be their best option, but an overstay fee after charging stops would be unfair.

Solution? More units. It's still early days, but where units are always in use ecars need to be adding units. The longer they don't, the more the message of "there's not enough charging infrastructure" gets out there.

AndyBoBandy

Black_Knight wrote: »

I'm sure they have the means to do it, but it's a difficult one. What about train stations? Overstay fees there would likely either make no difference, or bully people into not using them for their purpose.
What about those without home charging? Overnight charging could be their best option, but an overstay fee after charging stops would be unfair.

Solution? More units. It's still early days, but where units are always in use ecars need to be adding units. The longer they don't, the more the message of "there's not enough charging infrastructure" gets out there.

Solution;

No Overstay Fee on 7kW units - All train station/park and ride facility units to be limited to 7kW - Any Train station that has a twin AC22 (44kW supply) could have 3 twin 7kW AC units, so 6 spaces instead of the 2 they have now without needing any supply upgrades... (who needs 22kW in a place they are most likely going to be parked for a minimum of 8 hours... (the can still take 63kWh in 8 hours from a 7kW unit). - All other units to be 22kW units.

No Overstay Fee on 22kW units if the charge was started between 8pm & 4am, but any charge started during these hours must be unplugged from the unit by 9am the following morning, otherwise overstay fee applies. All Other times, overstay fee kicks in 20-30 minutes after charge ends and vehicle is not unplugged.

Cheaper rate for 'night' charging, but the cheap rate starts at ~8pm and goes til ~6am - a rate that competes with current home night rates, makes it fair for folks that can't home charge, and for those that can home charge, it's an incentive to use the ESB network if your out and about after 8pm and need some charge (generating revenue for ESB).

AC22 units to be installed in banks of 2 or 3, so up to 6 cars can use them at once (if supply allows this).

Busman Paddy Lasty

Black_Knight wrote: »

I'm sure they have the means to do it, but it's a difficult one. What about train stations? Overstay fees there would likely either make no difference, or bully people into not using them for their purpose.
What about those without home charging? Overnight charging could be their best option, but an overstay fee after charging stops would be unfair.

Solution? More units. It's still early days, but where units are always in use ecars need to be adding units. The longer they don't, the more the message of "there's not enough charging infrastructure" gets out there.

More units absolutely yes but what spec units is key.

The queries above about train stations and overnight charging are all symptoms of having sunk 44 kW of AC power into only two connectors. Great for city centre paid parking spots. Inappropriate for train stations and people without home charging.