ESB eCars

McGiver

MJohnston wrote: »

I'm going to throw out a smoking hot devil's advocate (ie. I don't even know if I believe this one myself) take — it makes more sense to slowly improve EV charging infrastructure in line with demand, rather than try and outpace (and even stimulate) demand. The through line here is twofold:

1. Stimulating EV uptake through infrastructure is pointless because there are enough other incentives to EVs and there will be a big old stick coming by 2030 at the latest.
2. Charging hardware is constantly improving, so if you "future proof" your network in terms of demand, you're locking yourself into a specific generation of technology which might be rapidly obsolete.

Fight me.

Nice one but regarding #2 - that's a bit like saying you can't do any future proof at all, so why bother doing anything...

CCS is going to stay as the EU standard, so there's no "locking". 100% it wil be made backward compatible if new CCS standard is released.

Generally, if ECARs had any brain they would add let's say at least 100% buffer to allow for evolution of the DC charging capability.

So if the current charging standard in basically all new cars is 100 kW+ in average then they should install 200 kW+ chargers.

What they are doing is they are installing 150 kW chargers which drop to 75 kW when both connectors are used so that's not really future proof at all - it's the same issue as before they are installing DC chargers based on current "DC capability" and that's just silly.

McGiver

liamog wrote: »

At the moment it makes sense for DC chargers to be installed with CCS and a Nissan Proprietary Connector CHAdeMO when installing the single car chargers (50kW/44kW). Where it turns into an exercise in failure to forward plan is the high powered chargers. These should be installed a 2xCCS, 1xCHAdeMO configuration.

Yep and if 3 cars connect the power would be 50 kW each.

I think that's why they went for 1x CCS and 1xChademo - they can claim it's "high speed charger" with 75 kW output with both connectors used.

So Ecars PR instead of practicality (CCS is the way it's going in the EU).

Unless the configuration can be changed on the fly and they could add another CCS connector later on...

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I believe it's fairly easy on the new chargers to swap a Chademo for CCS afterwards, so as Chademo goes out of support they won't be left with a bunch of unusable chargers

I really hope so but do you remember the voting machines? :cool:

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Yep and if 3 cars connect the power would be 50 kW each.

Nope, the charging units they use consist of 2x75kW Charging modules, so can only load balance across 2 connectors. They're in use like this in other markets, so it's not exactly a crazy request.

innrain

MJohnston wrote: »

1. Stimulating EV uptake through infrastructure is pointless because there are enough other incentives to EVs and there will be a big old stick coming by 2030 at the latest.

Proper charging infrastructure is the biggest advertisement for the EV the state can ask for. Install Fastned style hubs in the front of the petrol stations and you have a big expo of real use/real cases.

So far, for the novice/regular ICE drivers, range anxiety/lack of infrastructure is the biggest excuse of not buying EV. The other incentives mean nothing if this issue is not addressed. Meaning that the grants and proper infrastructure are complementary to each other. You can't give someone skis for free and not provide the snow (This is what I call pointless). Few post back i was looking at how others define proper infrastructure and, even if it is debatable by some that we need less than the continental countries, we are still nowhere the acceptable figure. The chargers density for Ireland being at 1/90 km. Since this thread started, the EVs number more than doubled while the number of ecars chargers increased by single digits.

MJohnston wrote: »

Charging hardware is constantly improving, so if you "future proof" your network in terms of demand, you're locking yourself into a specific generation of technology which might be rapidly obsolete.

Fight me.

At this level of expenditure the obsolesce is planned. Even if some changes will happen requiring different software of even different physical connectors the main guts of the chargers (and cost) will remain the same. Look at the 150kW Terra units. They can be configured in so many ways. Nothing will stop a proactive ecars to change the ratio of CCS/CHAdeMO at their 8x2 hubs in 3 years when the ratio of CHAdeMO cars will drop below 20%

MJohnston

A completely irrelevant post here but — are ESB about to rebrand? I have their eCars site pinned on my phone and the logo just updated.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

Nope, the charging units they use consist of 2x75kW Charging modules, so can only load balance across 2 connectors. They're in use like this in other markets, so it's not exactly a crazy request.

I know that but how does it work if you have 4 connectors + AC on top? Does it need more power than?

And does it mean ecars are stuck with 2 connector setup then?

McGiver

innrain wrote:

At this level of expenditure the obsolesce is planned. Even if some changes will happen requiring different software of even different physical connectors the main guts of the chargers (and cost) will remain the same. Look at the 150kW Terra units. They can be configured in so many ways. Nothing will stop a proactive ecars to change the ratio of CCS/CHAdeMO at their 8x2 hubs in 3 years when the ratio of CHAdeMO cars will drop below 20%

Yes. But their options to upgrade are limited, unless they can increase the power or just make it 1 CCS connector to increase the max power.

Are Ionity 175 kW or 350 kW? It shows different power in different apps. May differ by site as well.

McGiver

innrain wrote:

The chargers density for Ireland being at 1/90 km. Since this thread started, the EVs number more than doubled while the number of ecars chargers increased by single digits.

It's shambles, nothing but.

It is a joke really at this stage. Especially the FCPs. The SCPs were OK in 2015, I guess.

Let's compare with a similar market in terms of EV maturity and in terms of size. We won't go to the UK, Italy, France, they're way more populous countries, and we won't go to the Netherlands or Finland or Norway either, these are more EV mature markets, we can dream about.

So let's look at the Czech Republic - it has roughly the same land area as Ireland, and about 50% longer motorway network, has about the same EV numbers, albeit for a bit more than double the car fleet (5.6M) - it has some 400 FCPs which is 4 times more than here on the same area for the same number of EVs.

What's worse is that a) they're adding 10 FCPs per month in average (we add maybe 1 and that's a conversion!) , b) they already have 20+ 150kW+ non-ionity FCPs (we have 2!) and c) they've several hubs where there are several 50kW and 150kW chargers in one place (we have zero to date - the best is 1x 50 + 1x 150 "hub" ).

So I'm asking - WTF is ESB doing with our taxes (EU and local)?? Ireland will get beaten in infrastructure by Bulgaria if goes on like this.

AndyBoBandy

New App for Northern Ireland, new branding, new logo’s, new skins.



Same old eCars.

Gwen Cooper

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

New App for Northern Ireland, new branding, new logo’s, new skins.



Same old eCars.

That's the UK app. Northern Ireland is on the same app as ROI, ecar connect.

Black_Knight

MJohnston wrote: »

A completely irrelevant post here but — are ESB about to rebrand? I have their eCars site pinned on my phone and the logo just updated.

Money well spent

AndyBoBandy

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

That's the UK app. Northern Ireland is on the same app as ROI, ecar connect.

I always thought it was the NI version..

just opened it up there and there are no chargers showing up on the British Isles!!

Gwen Cooper

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I always thought it was the NI version..

just opened it up there and there are no chargers showing up on the British Isles!!

No, ecar connect is for both ROI and NI and then EV Plug In is for the UK. They're just in London and Coventry I think so there won't be many chargers showing there unless you zoom in on one of those cities.

AndyBoBandy

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

No, ecar connect is for both ROI and NI and then EV Plug In is for the UK. They're just in London and Coventry I think so there won't be many chargers showing there unless you zoom in on one of those cities.

Ah yes, I see them now, London & Coventry.

Jeeebus they have some setup over there... multiple sites with 2 & 3 DC units.....



I wonder who's paid for all these fancy hubs??

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

Money well spent

It's a handy way of shifting blame, you can say it was the old company that was mismanaging things

Irishjg

Putting lipstick on a pig. It’s still a pig.

markpb

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I wonder who's paid for all these fancy hubs??

They told EV Owners NI that the installations in London and Coventry were subsidised by the local authorities. It's also possible that they're working with better or more willing electricity distribution companies in those cities

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

Yes. But their options to upgrade are limited, unless they can increase the power or just make it 1 CCS connector to increase the max power.

Are Ionity 175 kW or 350 kW? It shows different power in different apps. May differ by site as well.

175kW here


They didnt fit the 350kW here.

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

It's shambles, nothing but.

It is a joke really at this stage. Especially the FCPs. The SCPs were OK in 2015, I guess.

Let's compare with a similar market in terms of EV maturity and in terms of size. We won't go to the UK, Italy, France, they're way more populous countries, and we won't go to the Netherlands or Finland or Norway either, these are more EV mature markets, we can dream about.

So let's look at the Czech Republic - it has roughly the same land area as Ireland, and about 50% longer motorway network, has about the same EV numbers, albeit for a bit more than double the car fleet (5.6M) - it has some 400 FCPs which is 4 times more than here on the same area for the same number of EVs.

What's worse is that a) they're adding 10 FCPs per month in average (we add maybe 1 and that's a conversion!) , b) they already have 20+ 150kW+ non-ionity FCPs (we have 2!) and c) they've several hubs where there are several 50kW and 150kW chargers in one place (we have zero to date - the best is 1x 50 + 1x 150 "hub" ).

So I'm asking - WTF is ESB doing with our taxes (EU and local)?? Ireland will get beaten in infrastructure by Bulgaria if goes on like this.

Yep fully agree, I had high hopes when I got the leaf in 2015 both in the manufacturers and the ESB network, I had high hopes when I got the i3 just over 3 years ago and here we are today and people are still queuing, standing out in the p1ssing rain as there is absolutely no shelter at these chargers whatsoever. It's a complete shambles, lazy semi state company.

Perhaps the ESB had hoped that a couple of private companies would come in and litter the Island with chargers so they wouldn't have to bother ?

It would be great if there were more BMW i3 Rex type cars where you have a big battery for decent EV range and generator to take care of the rest and no need for public charging and all that nonsense at all. In the future they could just burn Hydrogen in the ICE directly, no need for a fuel cell for now it could run on biofuels but even running on Petrol occasionally is dramatically reducing harmful emissions as most of the time you run on battery.

Mod Note: Moved REx discussion to https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058111937

McGiver

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Ah yes, I see them now, London & Coventry.

Jeeebus they have some setup over there... multiple sites with 2 & 3 DC units.....



I wonder who's paid for all these fancy hubs??

This is a hub! An actual hub. Can do 6 cars at once: 3x CSS or Chademo and 3x FastAC, the fast AC is good a back-up contingency for waiting, all cars nowadays can do 11 kW AC and 5 kWh while waiting for charge is better than 0.

McGiver

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a complete shambles, lazy semi state company.

While I'm allergic to the semi-states, that's not the issue in other countries. France, Finland, Czechia, Poland to name a few, when it comes to charging infra.

The Czech example I gave - vast majority of the FCP/HPC network is being built by the two largest electricity providers, something like ESB and SSE here, one of which is a semi-state too. A lot of it subsidised from the EU money, but not majority of it. They seem to be building it on their own. And that's in the absence of any coherent EV gov strategy over there (it's all "yeah we'll go electric...eventually").

Whereas here the gov claims "1M EVs 2030 goal" so has a strategy on paper, but does nothing. If this is the strategy then the chargers need to be built now, not in 2029. Yes, it could be left to the "market" but that's a) catch 22 and b) needs a very sound cut-the-red-tape regulation which Irish govs are generally not good at.

ELM327

They only have the AC22 as (if its in london) most taxis have CCS+Chad and also 22kW AC.

the_amazing_raisin

McGiver wrote: »

While I'm allergic to the semi-states, that's not the issue in other countries. France, Finland, Czechia, Poland to name a few, when it comes to charging infra.

The Czech example I gave - vast majority of the FCP/HPC network is being built by the two largest electricity providers, something like ESB and SSE here, one of which is a semi-state too. A lot of it subsidised from the EU money, but not majority of it. They seem to be building it on their own. And that's in the absence of any coherent EV gov strategy over there (it's all "yeah we'll go electric...eventually").

Whereas here the gov claims "1M EVs 2030 goal" so has a strategy on paper, but does nothing. If this is the strategy then the chargers need to be built now, not in 2029. Yes, it could be left to the "market" but that's a) catch 22 and b) needs a very sound cut-the-red-tape regulation which Irish govs are generally not good at.

Well they say they're leaving it to the "market" but they're really not. All of the money is being pumped into a single company which is then offering charging at a price which generally undercuts the opposition


If the government wanted to do it in a market friendly way they'd be tendering out contracts for providers to build chargers at various sites. More lucrative locations should receive less support as they're easier to make money from


It's easy then to implement standards such as minimum charging power and number of chargers and providing a standard method of payment then because you just make them conditions of the tender

liamog

The reality is, we've seen ESB are willing to install proper infrastructure when a government is willing to tender for supply and operate contracts (London Taxi's & Coventry). Whereas here we have a government fund available without direction. As much as people like to rail on ESB, I think the failure here is on the government side. What's to stop EasyGo proposing a scheme part funded by the climate action fund?

Until TII start treating EV charging as infrastructure problem with a central network design, but tendered out supply and operate contracts, we'll be left with this piecemeal whatever they can get away with network.

JohnC.

McGiver wrote: »

This is a hub! An actual hub. Can do 6 cars at once: 3x CSS or Chademo and 3x FastAC, the fast AC is good a back-up contingency for waiting, all cars nowadays can do 11 kW AC and 5 kWh while waiting for charge is better than 0.

But it looks like each unit only serves a single parking space.

AndyBoBandy

JohnC. wrote: »

But it looks like each unit only serves a single parking space.

It looks like this is the case alright.

But isn’t it great that 3 cars can charge simultaneously there, regardless of what plugs they have on them..

3 on CCS or 3 on CHAdeMO or 3 on AC, or a mixture of all 3...

Even that 3 unit set up would be a marked improvement for inter urban routes compared to what we currently have...

the_amazing_raisin

zg3409 wrote: »

Swords main street outside Eddie rockets, charger is taken away, new cement base and bollards already in, looks like new AC or DC charger on the way. Someone from Facebook put a photo on plugshare of the work in progress.

Just passed by today and there's one of the newer AC22 units there. I could be wrong, but hadn't they already replaced that unit?


Looks like Swords missed the DC train, although we're probably better served than most towns for DC charging nearby

Black_Knight

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Just passed by today and there's one of the newer AC22 units there. I could be wrong, but hadn't they already replaced that unit?


Looks like Swords missed the DC train, although we're probably better served than most towns for DC charging nearby

Correct. Perhaps just fixing the bent post so. Seems overkill

ELM327

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

It looks like this is the case alright.

But isn’t it great that 3 cars can charge simultaneously there, regardless of what plugs they have on them..

3 on CCS or 3 on CHAdeMO or 3 on AC, or a mixture of all 3...

Even that 3 unit set up would be a marked improvement for inter urban routes compared to what we currently have...

That would be a better install than all but 3 ecars setups now. (the hpc+50kW is better, marginally, due to 150kW)