ESB eCars

lukas8888

Black_Knight wrote: »

Don't see it on the app yet.

Newly installed last week,going live early next week according to filling station
manager.

slave1

Deleted User wrote: »

I've no problem using the 50 Kw if available and if it can provide 50 Kw and not be throttled.

There should be only 150 Kw chargers at motorway service areas.

It would p1ss me off having to charge at a 50 Kw if a 50 Kw car was using the 150 Kw. It's a waste of a 150 kw charger.

And both of you sharing a 150kW will be paying the premium 37c rate for the pleasure, an extra 21% over fast charger rate

the_amazing_raisin

slave1 wrote: »

And both of you sharing a 150kW will be paying the premium 37c rate for the pleasure, an extra 21% over fast charger rate

And when the car throttles to 75kW because SoC is too high or the battery is too cold or too hot then you're still paying a premium rate per kWh. You're paying extra for the capability to deliver 150kW, not a guarantee of 150kW all the time

slave1

cruisey1987 wrote: »

And when the car throttles to 75kW because SoC is too high or the battery is too cold or too hot then you're still paying a premium rate per kWh. You're paying extra for the capability to deliver 150kW, not a guarantee of 150kW all the time

I'd live with my own car battery restrictions -temp/SOC etc but if another car takes me from the 100kWh+ potential I have and down to 75kWh then the premium price is not worth it and better off with a 50kW charger if nearby.
Given the quantity of charge I'd be looking for probably only 5/10minutes difference in charge time.
Anyhow, my plan is home charging and avoid public charging, eCars etc are just for emergencies or when I cannot achieve range for whatever trip I'm on

MJohnston

slave1 wrote: »

I'd live with my own car battery restrictions -temp/SOC etc but if another car takes me from the 100kWh+ potential I have and down to 75kWh then the premium price is not worth it and better off with a 50kW charger if nearby.
Given the quantity of charge I'd be looking for probably only 5/10minutes difference in charge time.
Anyhow, my plan is home charging and avoid public charging, eCars etc are just for emergencies or when I cannot achieve range for whatever trip I'm on

I thought there was talk that when you're kicked down to a lower charge rate by a second car plugging in, that the pricing rate would lower too?

slave1

MJohnston wrote: »

I thought there was talk that when you're kicked down to a lower charge rate by a second car plugging in, that the pricing rate would lower too?

Well that would be good but just a flat rate quoted on the eCars website...

ELM327

MJohnston wrote: »

I thought there was talk that when you're kicked down to a lower charge rate by a second car plugging in, that the pricing rate would lower too?

Yes but it doesnt seem to have been brought in.

liamog

Charging a lower rate for slower charging cars flopped heavily in the UK, as it just encourages under utilisation of the right chargers. There was also a problem with electrify America where a car would be placed in a higher band because it spent 2 of the 45 mins charging at the higher rate.
Why should you pay more because your car can charge at high speeds, if it isn't actually charging at them.

Most of the per kWh cost is to cover the charger installation, which doesn't change because your CCS PHEV can only pull 6.6kW from a CCS connector.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

Charging a lower rate for slower charging cars flopped heavily in the UK, as it just encourages under utilisation of the right chargers. There was also a problem with electrify America where a car would be placed in a higher band because it spent 2 of the 45 mins charging at the higher rate.
Why should you pay more because your car can charge at high speeds, if it isn't actually charging at them.

Most of the per kWh cost is to cover the charger installation, which doesn't change because your CCS PHEV can only pull 6.6kW from a CCS connector.

I’m *not* talking about a lower rate for slower cars, I’m talking about a lower rate in the situation where two cars connect to a high powered charger, resulting in it being load balanced to slower speeds.

liamog

Ahh I see, yes it does rather seem a problem to be paying an extra 4c/kWH if your only getting 75kW instead of the up to 150kW

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote:

And when the car throttles to 75kW because SoC is too high or the battery is too cold or too hot then you're still paying a premium rate per kWh. You're paying extra for the capability to deliver 150kW, not a guarantee of 150kW all the time

That's why FCP, and especially, HCP, is bollox to do per kWh pricing. Should be per min as in Norway or Austria.

kWh taken don't matter, there so many variables for kWh, time taken is a clear thing to everyone and that's what matters for this valuable resource - nobody cares how many kWh you take (you could be there with McKramer kWh Limiter Gizmo (tm) whole day and take only 20 kWh or have it plugged whole day but not charging), but everybody cares about time - you should pay for the time you occupy the resource for, feel free to occupy it for an hour or two but be ready to pay. No overstay fees needed either, it fixes itself.

This applies for high-speed FCP especially - it must be in and out, up to 80% and go. Higher per min pricing will discourage only 50 kW DC capable cars. The 150 kW DC pricing is typically at least 1.5x the price of 50 kW in most of Europe.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Ahh I see, yes it does rather seem a problem to be paying an extra 4c/kWH if your only getting 75kW instead of the up to 150kW

Yet I, in my Ioniq limited to <70kW, will use ionity in cashel for 64c/kWh no problem.

They'll price it such that it's a price up to 50kW, and a price up to 150kW. What their SLA is I don't know, if there is any.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

That's why FCP, and especially, HCP, is bollox to do per kWh pricing. Should be per min as in Norway or Austria.

In the case of the current eCars 150kW chargers. They could have two billing rates.

30c/min if you choose the 75kW option, and 50c/min if you choose the 150kW option. With the other port locked out if you choose 150kW.

Black_Knight wrote: »

Yet I, in my Ioniq limited to <70kW, will use ionity in cashel for 64c/kWh no problem.

I was being a little tongue in cheek, I've no problem paying an extra 4c/kWh and not getting the full service. I too will rather use an Ionity charger as there are multiple chargers, even though our cars max out at 50kW and 70kW. The multiple points of failure are more valuable to me than the cents/km.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

In the case of the current eCars 150kW chargers. They could have two billing rates.

30c/min if you choose the 75kW option, and 50c/min if you choose the 150kW option. With the other port locked out if you choose 150kW.

As McGiver alludes to, the problem with that is it almost incentivises people taking longer to charge.

Right now, the critical resource is time. Hopefully in future, when the charging network is far denser, the critical resource will be the power itself.

We should probably always price things to maximise whatever the critical resource is at any point.

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

As McGiver alludes to, the problem with that is it almost incentivises people taking longer to charge.

I'd see it as the opposite, if your paying 50c/min and only charging at 40kW that's a very expensive rate per kW. It encourages you to spend as little time charging and to do so at as a high a power as possible.

the_amazing_raisin

I feel like we're making too much of an issue over the load sharing in the chargers and any premium prices

If the rate is per kWh then it's the same cost whether you're charging at 150kW or 75kW, so the real cost is time, not money

Yes you can charge for cheaper at a 50kW, but it's slower anyway and you run the risk of the charger being broken or blocked. At least with a hub there's a decent chance of a charger being free to use

I think people will figure out pretty quickly that the chargers go faster if they're charging one car at a time, so they'll try to avoid sharing chargers as much as possible. Remember, when a second car plugs in they're also limiting themselves to 75kW, no-one will do that of there's a charger beside them that'll give 150kW

And let's be honest, the majority of EVs throttle to below 75kW fairly quickly, within the first 15-20 mins. So that's 20 mins where it's possible your charging speed might get nerfed by another car, after that it doesn't matter anyway

The hub would need to be pretty busy for that to happen, and it'll likely cost you 10 mins max anyway

Kramer

McGiver wrote: »

nobody cares how many kWh you take (you could be there with McKramer kWh Limiter Gizmo (tm) whole day and take only 20 kWh or have it plugged whole day but not charging)

Unfortunately, I've failed in my quest to bring such a DC, charge speed limiting device, to market. AC was easy, DC with those newfangled tethered cables are a tough nut to crack .

To be honest, I'm not sure how I'd market them. Who would want to plug into a 150kW DC HP charger, but limit their speed to 45kW - Mad_Lad is the only one I know so far :pac:.

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I think people will figure out pretty quickly that the chargers go faster if they're charging one car at a time, so they'll try to avoid sharing chargers as much as possible. Remember, when a second car plugs in they're also limiting themselves to 75kW, no-one will do that of there's a charger beside them that'll give 150kW

I think the opposite actually happens. Like parking in an empty car park, someone is always guaranteed to park right beside you.
But yeah, an extra few cents/kWh is nothing in the overall scheme of things for using the 150kW HPCs - I wouldn't be too critical of eCars on that.
KISS - keep it simple, stupid.

Black_Knight

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I feel like we're making too much of an issue over the load sharing in the chargers and any premium prices

If the rate is per kWh then it's the same cost whether you're charging at 150kW or 75kW, so the real cost is time, not money.

Don't people currently complain about paying for a certain speed but when things get busy they get nowhere near that speed? Regardless of whether they could consume the speed they're paying for!

I'm talking about broadband. Pay for 500mb, but only get 300mb, and everything I use is on WiFi so I only get 150mb. I'm uninformed so I blame the provider.

You already see it with people regularly questioning why they didn't get 22kW from the local AC unit. People, regardless of what their car can take, will initially jump on the HCP and be oblivious as to what rate of charge they're getting regardless of load balancing or the cars ability. Like rocking up to a petrol pump and thinking the "premium" fuel will be worth it in your Nissan Micra.

IMO, the 4c difference is small enough that it's not unacceptable for a 75kW service, should that occur.

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

Don't people currently complain about paying for a certain speed but when things get busy they get nowhere near that speed? Regardless of whether they could consume the speed they're paying for!

I'm talking about broadband. Pay for 500mb, but only get 300mb, and everything I use is on WiFi so I only get 150mb. I'm uninformed so I blame the provider.

You already see it with people regularly questioning why they didn't get 22kW from the local AC unit. People, regardless of what their car can take, will initially jump on the HCP and be oblivious as to what rate of charge they're getting regardless of load balancing or the cars ability. Like rocking up to a petrol pump and thinking the "premium" fuel will be worth it in your Nissan Micra.

IMO, the 4c difference is small enough that it's not unacceptable for a 75kW service, should that occur.

Actually broadband is a good analogy, the provider gives you a peak speed but in reality you're sharing that with around a dozen other people, so at busy times your speed plummets

No-one likes it, and of course I'd prefer a dedicated connection, but it costs a lot more

Same for DC charging, 37c/kWh gets you 150kW shared between 2 cars. If you want a dedicated charger, then Ionity is down the road at 79c/kWh

the_amazing_raisin

Kramer wrote: »

Unfortunately, I've failed in my quest to bring such a DC, charge speed limiting device, to market. AC was easy, DC with those newfangled tethered cables are a tough nut to crack .

To be honest, I'm not sure how I'd market them. Who would want to plug into a 150kW DC HP charger, but limit their speed to 45kW - Mad_Lad is the only one I know so far :pac:.

Easy, make a CCS to Chademo adapter so that all those Gen1 Leafs can plug into those nice shiny CCS only chargers

I'd buy one

Kramer

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Easy, make a CCS to Chademo adapter so that all those Gen1 Leafs can plug into those nice shiny CCS only chargers

I'd buy one

In 6 months time, how would you feel pulling up in your ID.4, to 2 occupied Ionity chargers on the M1 - 2 old Leafs hogging them, pulling 40kWs combined :pac:.

Chademo = dead.
REx = dead.

kanuseeme

Kramer wrote: »

In 6 months time, how would you feel pulling up in your ID.4, to 2 occupied Ionity chargers on the M1 - 2 old Leafs hogging them, pulling 40kWs combined :pac:.

Chademo = dead.
REx = dead.

I am sure, the ID.4 owner can share his opinion with the Hyundai, mini and Kia etc owners while mad lad switches to petrol and drives off.

The problem is not charging speed, but lack of chargers, nearly a 1000 EVS registered last month, and only 2 ionity chargers between the 2 biggest cities on the island.

Whats the leaf owner to do, scrap his car because someone else can charge 3 times faster?

you buy an EV, you can expect to be waiting at some point.

ELM327

kanuseeme wrote: »

I am sure, the ID.4 owner can share his opinion with the Hyundai, mini and Kia etc owners while mad lad switches to petrol and drives off.

The problem is not charging speed, but lack of chargers, nearly a 1000 EVS registered last month, and only 2 ionity chargers between the 2 biggest cities on the island.

Whats the leaf owner to do, scrap his car because someone else can charge 3 times faster?

you buy an EV, you can expect to be waiting at some point.

That's just not good enough though. You could buy a Tesla that has 2 sites with 8 stalls at each, on that road you mention (dublin to belfast).
With a medium to long range EV you don't wait. You just go to the next one.

Kramer

kanuseeme wrote: »

Whats the leaf owner to do, scrap his car because someone else can charge 3 times faster?

I'd say relegate it to someone who can manage 100% with home &/or public AC charging & move on to a better, longer range, quicker charging, CCS equipped EV.

DC charging is expensive to provide & a limited resource. For the greater good, sacrifices must be made, it's the way :pac:.

There was no outcry when Ionity installed CCS only units to support their manufacturers' cars, Leaf owners should be chasing Nissan to provide Chademo.
At some point, older Leafs will have no DC charging support.

They'll still be useful of course, but not for long, interurban motorway transport.

the_amazing_raisin

Kramer wrote: »

In 6 months time, how would you feel pulling up in your ID.4, to 2 occupied Ionity chargers on the M1 - 2 old Leafs hogging them, pulling 40kWs combined :pac:.

Chademo = dead.
REx = dead.

That's what the tow hitch is for. Just make sure there's a decent bit of cable on that adapter so I can slice it without damaging the charger



Chademo is dead from a development standpoint, but there's plenty of Leafs around still and they're stubbornly refusing to die, so they're not going anywhere for a while yet


They should be adding 2x 50kW units with CCS & Chademo to those hubs for the older cars likes Leafs. It'd free up the higher power units for faster charging vehicles

Kramer

Kramer wrote: »

REx = dead.

ELM327

2 year old photo before the Ionity chargers and before the start of the ecars multiple chargers per site...
Within 15km of my house there used to be 1 50kW, now there are 3 locations and 4 chargers including 1 150kW

Silent Running

ELM327 wrote: »

2 year old photo before the Ionity chargers and before the start of the ecars multiple chargers per site...
Within 15km of my house there used to be 1 50kW, now there are 3 locations and 4 chargers including 1 150kW

Also before charging for charging started. It's just like having a pet troll.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

30c/min if you choose the 75kW option, and 50c/min if you choose the 150kW option. With the other port locked out if you choose 150kW.

Not a bad idea at all! As long as it's based on time and the pricing is differing significantly based on charge speed provided then it's perfect. I'd vote for this.

No overstay fees needed - spend time a and pay more if you wish to. First come first served. Two options provided to the customers. Efficient allocation based on time. PHEV heavily discouraged but not banned (pay if you wish to). Slow charging cars discouraged but not banned (pay if you wish to). Easy to explain to average Joe and Mary (everyone understands pricing in minutes!) - per kWh pricing is convoluted (too many variables for kWh taken by the car) - average Joe understands that he spent at the charger 15 minutes and his car shows 70% SOC and thsthe pays for 15 minutes spent.

Per kWh pricing is fine until you have volumes or hogging. Once you start getting busy chargers / hubs then time based pricing is the only way - simply because time is money.

ELM327

Agreed, and this is why most HPC and FCP in Norway are per minute pricing, or at least there is a per minute component