ESB eCars

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Not bad for a programme that started in 2019 with a tendering process.

Proof will be in the pudding I guess.

liamog

Black_Knight wrote: »

Proof will be in the pudding I guess.

So far it seems on track, they've certainly upgraded a large number of the AC units with more reliable ones, and they've definitely rolled out a large number 2x22kW to DC upgrades. They're saying the programme runs to 2023, which does seem to be a bit longer than they originally indicated.

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

Not bad for a programme that started in 2019 with a tendering process.

In the middle of a pandemic too.
Exemplary stuff :pac:.

Ionity/Tesla & Gridserve etc. are really being shown up by eCars now, thank God we have green energy & transport ministers.

In fairness, it's not all eCars fault. The lack of targets/ambition lies 100% at the feet of the government. eCars is doing what all quangos/semi state entities do, just enough to justify their existance & comfy salaries for themselves.

I'd likely do the same, given the chance.

liamog

I'm not sure why you continually complain about an organisation that developed a plan, obtained funding for a plan, and to all apparent evidence is delivering on aforementioned plan.
Coming in every other month to complain about the plan being implemented isn't going to change a thing.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

I'm not sure why you continually complain about an organisation that developed a plan, obtained funding for a plan, and to all apparent evidence is delivering on aforementioned plan.
Coming in every other month to complain about the plan being implemented isn't going to change a thing.

Not complaining didn't change a thing either. Gives us something to do.

As for the ac-dc upgrades, to me the heart was in the right place by adding DC units, but their head wasn't in it. Poorly placed in a lot of cases (awkward to access, no amenities nearby), and the majority of the new AC units are Tesco ones, which most agree are a waste. I'll try get stats on those some day. And that's it for new AC units for the foreseeable it seems.
In fairness, the replacement of the old units is tipping away nicely, but it doesn't add additional infrastructure to the system.

As for the hubs, they're not hubs. They are what should be a standard years ago (ie. 2 units).

I really hope they can deliver all they've promised, but I very much doubt it.

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

Coming in every other month to complain about the plan being implemented isn't going to change a thing.

I also criticise bad governance, civil service incompetence, private companies fleecing customers, electricians charging exorbitant fees for simple charge point installs, ridiculous manufacturer service intervals for EVs etc.
Yes, it won't change a thing, but if enough of us express our displeasure, maybe someone will take notice.

I'd be the first to pat eCars on the back, if they actually delivered something worthy of praise.
Ionity = 6 proper multi unit hubs, in less than 2 years. eCars have been in operation here for over 10 years. The targets need to be revised asap. Get more funding from government. Research a PPP. Try something else.

It's been done before, it's replicated all over Europe.

Black_Knight wrote: »

Not complaining didn't change a thing either. Gives us something to do.

Exactly. eCars is also publically funded & I take a keen interest in where my tax goes. Plus they're never here to defend themselves & it's a grand old hobby :pac:.

liamog

I get that you'd like them to deliver a better plan, but repeating the same complaints on this thread on a monthly basis isn't going to make a blind bit of difference.

MJohnston

Black_Knight wrote: »

In fairness, the replacement of the old units is tipping away nicely, but it doesn't add additional infrastructure to the system.

Hmmm - I basically disagree with this. Yes, it doesn’t literally add infrastructure, but it does increase the capacity of the existing infrastructure, which is kind of the same thing. Either way it allows more cars to charge on the network over the course of the same time.

Black_Knight

MJohnston wrote: »

Hmmm - I basically disagree with this. Yes, it doesn’t literally add infrastructure, but it does increase the capacity of the existing infrastructure, which is kind of the same thing. Either way it allows more cars to charge on the network over the course of the same time.

If they replace broken ones yes, but lots of what they're replacing are not broken, just prone to breaking and no longer manufactured. It's great they're being proactive about replacing them but there's very few instances of them replacing broken AC units anymore, so the available socket counts stay the same.

MJohnston

Black_Knight wrote: »

If they replace broken ones yes, but lots of what they're replacing are not broken, just prone to breaking and no longer manufactured. It's great they're being proactive about replacing them but there's very few instances of them replacing broken AC units anymore, so the available socket counts stay the same.

Yeah it doesn’t matter to me if they’re replacing broken or working charge points, it’s the upgrade in capacity that matters. It doesn’t matter as much as entirely new chargers but it’s still an infrastructure upgrade imo.

MJohnston

Or to put it another way: I think an effective measure of our charging infrastructure is “number of cars that could charge in a 24 hour period”

Upgrading from 22kW AC to 50kW DC is at least doubling that measure. More realistically, it’s quadrupling it, because most EVs cannot AC charge above 11kW.

Of course, car capacity improvements means any network will degrade in capacity over time even if perfectly maintained.

Silent Running

At one point in Wexford town, of the four 22kW charge points installed, three were down to 1 socket due to faults and the fourth had two sockets working, but only one parking spot. I was able to sort the last one by working with the council to get the second spot painted, but the other three were faulty for ages, two of them for many years. I had reported them countless times with no action.

So the replacement units have increased the working socket count in Wexford, without increasing the actual socket count.

innrain

Those sockets should have been working in the first place. You can't praise them for doing something they should have done years ago.

As for the 50kW upgrades I don't know but I'm the only one feeling that they are outdated? I mean they were superb in 2016, they were OK in 2019 but two years later they're kinda subpar. How would they be in 2023? This year so far 3k new cars registered. How many of them have >100kW DC capabilities? 50% That is probably more than 10% of the entire EV fleet in just 3 months. What is the outlook for 2023 when the project ends? Is this planned obsolescence? Let's burn money? These Raption units should have been installed at Tesco and the Tesco units replace the broken units. Same money better return.

AndyBoBandy

innrain wrote: »

As for the 50kW upgrades I don't know but I'm the only one feeling that they are outdated? I mean they were superb in 2016, they were OK in 2019 but two years later they're kinda subpar. How would they be in 2023? This year so far 3k new cars registered. How many of them have >100kW DC capabilities? 50% That is probably more than 10% of the entire EV fleet in just 3 months. What is the outlook for 2023 when the project ends? Is this planned obsolescence? Let's burn money? These Raption units should have been installed at Tesco and the Tesco units replace the broken units. Same money better return.

They are the cheapest possible fix in that they require no additional grid works to get them up and running....

but yeah, it's 2021 and you can arrive at a DC charger, and a Zoe or Model S could be plugged in to the AC, pulling 22kW for a number of hours, so all you'll get on CCS or CHAdeMO is the balance which will be somewhere between 22kW - 28kW..... but you're only allowed use it for 45 minutes..... so that means anyone actually DC charging can only take 16.5kWh before they incur a €5 overstay fee!!!

16.5kWh in my SR+ is around 33% (assuming no losses, which is not the case, as discussed in ELM327's post below)


2021 Lads............

Silent Running

innrain wrote: »

Those sockets should have been working in the first place. You can't praise them for doing something they should have done years ago.

As for the 50kW upgrades I don't know but I'm the only one feeling that they are outdated? I mean they were superb in 2016, they were OK in 2019 but two years later they're kinda subpar. How would they be in 2023? This year so far 3k new cars registered. How many of them have >100kW DC capabilities? 50% That is probably more than 10% of the entire EV fleet in just 3 months. What is the outlook for 2023 when the project ends? Is this planned obsolescence? Let's burn money? These Raption units should have been installed at Tesco and the Tesco units replace the broken units. Same money better return.

I didn't think I was praising them.

I was pointing out that claiming socket numbers isn't the same as working sockets. In the case of Wexford town, 50% of the sockets were unusable. All they've done is pull the standard up to where it should have been the whole time.

I agree about the Tesco units. Another wasted opportunity.

ELM327

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

They are the cheapest possible fix in that they require no additional grid works to get them up and running....

but yeah, it's 2021 and you can arrive at a DC charger, and a Zoe or Model S could be plugged in to the AC, pulling 22kW for a number of hours, so all you'll get on CCS or CHAdeMO is the balance which will be somewhere between 22kW - 28kW..... but you're only allowed use it for 45 minutes..... so that means anyone actually DC charging can only take 16.5kWh before they incur a €5 overstay fee!!!

16.5kWh in my SR+ is around 33%


2021 Lads............

This is the problem.
Even without the load balancing, 45 minutes at 50kw gives a max gross of 37kWh. Allow for losses and you're down to 34 or so to the car. Allow another 1 for heating when charging and you're down to 33.



33kWh is not a lot, in the likes of the new german EVs you'd struggle to get 120km.

And then add to the factor, you may be load balancing and only get 50% of that 33kWh, or 60-70km range?? Pathetic.


Overstay fees are now a function of a network that is too slow, does not have enough HPC to cover current needs. Let alone in 2 years time.

cannco253

Why did eCars go with the 50kW chargers and not the 75kW chargers that EasyGo say they will be installing in 2021? Are they significantly more expensive or just brand new tech?

https://tritiumcharging.com/product/rtm-75/

ELM327

Tritium units are cheap and not as reliable as other better more expensive products.
I suspect easygo maintenance costs will be quite high and ESB werent willing to do the same.

liamog

cannco253 wrote: »

Why did eCars go with the 50kW chargers and not the 75kW chargers that EasyGo say they will be installing in 2021? Are they significantly more expensive or just brand new tech?

Would require site works to upgrade the local power supply.
eCars are installing 150kW chargers when provisioning new sites, the units people like to complain about are the ones where they replace a 2x22kW AC unit with 50kW DC charger that has a type 2 socket. It's a huge upgrade for the majority of cars, and represents a downgrade for a small number of drivers (Zoe's) up until 2020 there were about 600 of them in the country, in 2020 they started making CCS an option so it's hard to get stats on the split. They're is still a large provision of 22kW AC chargers that they can take advantage of.

cannco253

Is eCars just for private individual users or can Companies use it, or do they care either way?

I wonder what would happen if commercial users started charging like in Bjorn's latest video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNTjJW7HEY

Has anyone seen any trucks or vans using eCars charging points?

ELM327

Its for all. We dont really see many commercial EVs here.

AndyBoBandy

I'd guess any commercial use of EV's here (so far) would be entirely on a basis of home base charging...

I see Fingal CoCo Nissan Vans, as well as a home care crowd who have Kona's, so I presume they all slow charge overnight back at base/home.

Black_Knight

MJohnston wrote: »

Hmmm - I basically disagree with this. Yes, it doesn’t literally add infrastructure, but it does increase the capacity of the existing infrastructure, which is kind of the same thing. Either way it allows more cars to charge on the network over the course of the same time.

MJohnston wrote: »

Or to put it another way: I think an effective measure of our charging infrastructure is “number of cars that could charge in a 24 hour period”

Upgrading from 22kW AC to 50kW DC is at least doubling that measure. More realistically, it’s quadrupling it, because most EVs cannot AC charge above 11kW.

Of course, car capacity improvements means any network will degrade in capacity over time even if perfectly maintained.

Think you're confusing the upgrades i'm talking about. I'm saying their upgrade of old 22kW AC units to new 22kW AC units is tipping away nicely, but doesn't add any more infrastructure or capacity to the network.

The upgrade of 22kW AC to 50kW DC is good in theory, but in practice a lot of those units are not in locations which complement DC charging. The one in Westport is at a leisure center where you'd spend hours. Dungarvans one is a pain in the arse to access if you're on a Cork->Waterford drive.

Kramer

cannco253 wrote: »

I
I wonder what would happen if commercial users started charging like in Bjorn's latest video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNTjJW7HEY

Imagine being in turtle mode, rocking up to a single 50kW DC charger here & seeing that 350kWh bus just plugging in ahead of you :pac:.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Would require site works to upgrade the local power supply.
eCars are installing 150kW chargers when provisioning new sites, the units people like to complain about are the ones where they replace a 2x22kW AC unit with 50kW DC charger that has a type 2 socket. It's a huge upgrade for the majority of cars, and represents a downgrade for a small number of drivers (Zoe's) up until 2020 there were about 600 of them in the country, in 2020 they started making CCS an option so it's hard to get stats on the split. They're is still a large provision of 22kW AC chargers that they can take advantage of.

And upgrade for cars who wish to fast charge, but less useful to those who need to plug in while at work/gym/shops/walking, and those locations all seemed prime for "destination" type charging. And since 1 car can still slow charge on the unit, it means a bay could be occupied for hours on end, thus blocking many cars from reaching the DC charging cables.

Black_Knight

cannco253 wrote: »

Is eCars just for private individual users or can Companies use it, or do they care either way?

I wonder what would happen if commercial users started charging like in Bjorn's latest video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNTjJW7HEY

Has anyone seen any trucks or vans using eCars charging points?

There's a EV nissan van on south mall regularly plugged in. Handy for free parking I guess. Not sure how much it actually charges, but they're a free for all basically.

kanuseeme

Black_Knight wrote: »

There's a EV nissan van on south mall regularly plugged in. Handy for free parking I guess. Not sure how much it actually charges, but they're a free for all basically.

Can you turn down the charging speed on the nissan van like the ioniq?

Black_Knight

Silent Running wrote: »

I was pointing out that claiming socket numbers isn't the same as working sockets.

I think I can easily grab these metrics on slow chargers (ecars API gonna get a hammering from me). I'll see can I add it in over lunch.

cannco253

Who is responsible for an ICE car that's parked in an eCars bay? I presume eCars don't own the spot so it would be up to the local council or other owner to enforce clamping or towing away. I'm sure eCars would be able to monitor if a usually busy charger isn't suddenly being used as a sign of either a fault or being ICEd. Has anyone ever called them when a charger has been ICEd?

There doesn't seem to be any consistent signage at eCar charging points I've been to letting ICE drivers know what could happen, and I've never seen an ICE car clamped or towed due to being parked at a charger.

That charger in Westport is in a great central location and as parking is bad enough in Westport, I've no doubt it will be ICEd over the summer.

ELM327

cannco253 wrote: »

Who is responsible for an ICE car that's parked in an eCars bay? I presume eCars don't own the spot so it would be up to the local council or other owner to enforce clamping or towing away. I'm sure eCars would be able to monitor if a usually busy charger isn't suddenly being used as a sign of either a fault or being ICEd. Has anyone ever called them when a charger has been ICEd?

There doesn't seem to be any consistent signage at eCar charging points I've been to letting ICE drivers know what could happen, and I've never seen an ICE car clamped or towed due to being parked at a charger.

That charger in Westport is in a great central location and as parking is bad enough in Westport, I've no doubt it will be ICEd over the summer.

It's down to local councils.


The westport one was never iced before when it was a 22kW.
Similar to the other westport 22kW near the Plaza hotel, never iced