ESB eCars

PickYourName

Mickeroo wrote: »

You don't need a rapid charger if it's a residential parking space, it would essentially be a home charger.

I honestly can’t see that working. At the moment, if you live in a high-density housing area, the only viable option for owning any sort of car is if you have somewhere to park it overnight: not just some nights, or most, but a guarantee every night. If you want these people to switch to EVs, if overnight charging is the model, you have to offer them the same guarantee. The only way to do that is to have a very high density of chargers. If you have a small number and you reserve them for EVs, you’d have to keep the number finely in balance with the demand, which would be next to impossible to achieve. Note: I don’t actually have a guarantee of any particular spot at the moment (I have a resident’s permit), but in reality I always manage to get a spot within (say) 100m of where I live. Unless I had a similar guarantee to find an EV charger, there’s zero chance I’d get an EV if I was dependent on overnight charging.

Mickeroo wrote: »

A rapid charging "hub" near residential areas like the ones in Dundee would be a good option for people who can't charge overnight though.

That sounds like exactly what's needed, encouraging the very people where the benefit is highest (i.e. car users in high density areas, where pollution is also a major problem) to move to EVs. Compare and contrast with the situation here where those people currenly have no solution, and some are even arguing they are put to the back of the queue.....

Mickeroo

PickYourName wrote: »

I honestly can’t see that working. At the moment, if you live in a high-density housing area, the only viable option for owning any sort of car is if you have somewhere to park it overnight: not just some nights, or most, but a guarantee every night. If you want these people to switch to EVs, if overnight charging is the model, you have to offer them the same guarantee. The only way to do that is to have a very high density of chargers. If you have a small number and you reserve them for EVs, you’d have to keep the number finely in balance with the demand, which would be next to impossible to achieve. Note: I don’t actually have a guarantee of any particular spot at the moment (I have a resident’s permit), but in reality I always manage to get a spot within (say) 100m of where I live. Unless I had a similar guarantee to find an EV charger, there’s zero chance I’d get an EV if I was dependent on overnight charging.

Yeah don't disagree with any of that, if slow on street chargers is the solution then they have to be in pretty much every space.

PickYourName wrote: »

That sounds like exactly what's needed, encouraging the very people where the benefit is highest (i.e. car users in high density areas, where pollution is also a major problem) to move to EVs. Compare and contrast with the situation here where those people currenly have no solution, and some are even arguing they are put to the back of the queue.....

That was pretty much their philosophy right there, they were free to use for the first while too to encourage uptake (still might be free actually but they are meant to be starting to charge for them soon).

Here's a good look at what they've been doing there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDpblnu9xUE

Shows what a council can achieve with a bit of competence and vision.

MJohnston

PickYourName wrote: »

Although that would suit me just fine, I'd use some metric such as "within 2kms of all (high density) housing" rather than excluding as far out as the canals; there's a lot of housing within the canals (maybe that's effectively the same - I haven't checked?).

The point is they simply don't exist at the moment.

But so what? There are no petrol stations in that exact same zone, so how do inner city residents currently cope with that situation?

MJohnston

PickYourName wrote: »

Are they rapid chargers? If not, it's not a scalable solution, unless (nearly) every lamp-post has them, which doesn't strike me as very cost-effective.

You're thinking with Petrol Brain here, I'm afraid! The EV model of "fueling" operates on a very different wavelength, and I think if anyone expects to be able to rapid charge at their home, they are very much in for a huge disappointment.

You are aware that even people who can install home charge points don't, and in most cases cannot, get rapid chargers? It's just not compatible with the way Irish homes have been wired up over the years.

A network of communal lamp-post chargers, with a petrol station like coverage of rapid charging hubs, would be perfectly fine for the way cars need to operate.

As for cost-effective - back last year some London councils started installing these lamp-post charge points and they cost around 1000GBP each then, an absolute drop in the ocean (the lamp-posts themselves are already supplied with the electricity needed).

That pricing will only drop over time, and it's not like Irish councils need to convert every single lamp-post immediately, because EV ownership just isn't increasing fast enough to warrant that.

I'd imagine they could start off with a community-oriented approach where groups of residents can form to request additions in their areas, and once that demand hits a certain point, the council would then install one or a few. When EV ownership demand picks up, we can talk about having to fully kit out every lamp-post.

MJohnston

Another thing I'll say - by the time demand for EVs picks up to a significant proportion, battery (and charging) technology will have advanced way beyond what we have now, potentially making the idea of regular charging completely obsolete. It's not hard to imagine a near-future where EVs have magnitudes greater range than even the highest capacity petrol cars.

Kramer

MJohnston wrote: »

Another thing I'll say - by the time demand for EVs picks up to a significant proportion, battery (and charging) technology will have advanced way beyond what we have now, potentially making the idea of regular charging completely obsolete. It's not hard to imagine a near-future where EVs have magnitudes greater range than even the highest capacity petrol cars.

There's even talk of a new breakthrough technology from some small Japanese manufacturer..................what was it called again.............
Oh yeah, "self charging".

I think Toyota might be developing it .

Irishjg

Kramer wrote: »

There's even talk of a new breakthrough technology from some small Japanese manufacturer..................what was it called again.............
Oh yeah, "self charging".

I think Toyota might be developing it .

LOL yeah apparently it runs on fairy dust for half the time it's used and for the other half all you need to do is fill it up with petrol. Genius lol

innrain

there is a new 50kW charger at ESB East Wall labelled RAPTION-0001 ESB ecars Test Lab, Model name Circontrol Raption 50



I hope they use 4 digits in labeling for good reason

PickYourName

Mickeroo wrote: »

Shows what a council can achieve with a bit of competence and vision.

Funny what you can achieve if you have a thing called "political will" in place, isn't it? An EV strategy that works, housing......

Still, at least we'll have a nice white-water rafting facility in place in a couple of years.....

PickYourName

MJohnston wrote: »

You're thinking with Petrol Brain here, I'm afraid! The EV model of "fueling" operates on a very different wavelength, and I think if anyone expects to be able to rapid charge at their home, they are very much in for a huge disappointment.

Nope, I understand completely.

See my previous post https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112660082&postcount=317

I was making the point that fitting the odd street light (slow) charging does nothing to solve the problem of not having home charging.

PickYourName

MJohnston wrote: »

Another thing I'll say - by the time demand for EVs picks up to a significant proportion, battery (and charging) technology will have advanced way beyond what we have now, potentially making the idea of regular charging completely obsolete. It's not hard to imagine a near-future where EVs have magnitudes greater range than even the highest capacity petrol cars.

They’ve been talking about that for decades and still no sign of an order-of-magnitude breakthrough - it's mostly been incremental improvements. Great if it does actually happen, but the point is we’ve got to a stage where we don’t need a massive breakthrough. The technical problems have been solved to the extent of having viable products, the only things missing are scale to bring the cost down a bit more and political will to sort the infrastructure issue out. Hats off to Tesla for making the leap of faith to get the scale up and it’s well known and understood what has to happen on the infrastructure front (at least by some).

MJohnston

PickYourName wrote: »

Nope, I understand completely.

See my previous post https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=112660082&postcount=317

I was making the point that fitting the odd street light (slow) charging does nothing to solve the problem of not having home charging.

Does nothing to solve that problem? Really? Hmm, we'll just have to very much disagree here. It seems to me like you're trying to invent an unsolvable problem that operates on a different baseline to ICE cars. Does everybody living inside the canals of Dublin have a petrol station outside their front door? No, they don't, so why expect that fast-charging infrastructure should operate to a higher standard than that?

MJohnston

PickYourName wrote: »

They’ve been talking about that for decades and still no sign of an order-of-magnitude breakthrough - it's mostly been incremental improvements.

Just to put these "incremental" improvements in context - the i3's range has increased by 200% in the last 5 years...and that's from a company that wasn't even really trying, by their own admission, with EVs.

Can't wait for the next 5 years of incremental improvements!

PickYourName

MJohnston wrote: »

Does nothing to solve that problem? Really? Hmm, we'll just have to very much disagree here. It seems to me like you're trying to invent an unsolvable problem that operates on a different baseline to ICE cars. Does everybody living inside the canals of Dublin have a petrol station outside their front door? No, they don't, so why expect that fast-charging infrastructure should operate to a higher standard than that?

Did you read the post I referred to?

Having a network of fast chargers analogous to petrol stations (indeed, many likely to be co-located) is exactly what I said would solve the problem for those without home charging. It's analogous, but not identical: you can use the much-reduced infrastructure required by chargers as opposed to petrol/diesel sales to get around the problem of it taking longer, by having them in places where cars are otherwise spending similar period of time (e.g. when supermarket shopping and the like).

To be totally clear: I never suggested having street lamp fast chargers, just asked a question. The idea is idiotic if it’s presented as a solution to home-charging, regardless of the charging speed. Slow charging for top-ups where cars are parked in any case is a good idea, and using street lights is an obvious thing to do to reduce street clutter.

PickYourName

MJohnston wrote: »

Just to put these "incremental" improvements in context - the i3's range has increased by 200% in the last 5 years...and that's from a company that wasn't even really trying, by their own admission, with EVs.

Can't wait for the next 5 years of incremental improvements!

My point exactly! We don't need a step-change breakthrough: incremental improvements have got us to where we are and are likely to continue, though not necessarily at the same pace.

MJohnston

PickYourName wrote: »

Having a network of fast chargers analogous to petrol stations (indeed, many likely to be co-located) is exactly what I said would solve the problem for those without home charging. It's analogous, but not identical: you can use the much-reduced infrastructure required by chargers as opposed to petrol/diesel sales to get around the problem of it taking longer, by having them in places where cars are otherwise spending similar period of time (e.g. when supermarket shopping and the like).

So to go back to what the original disagreement was about - while the EV market is still growing, there has to be a compromise about where new charging infrastructure is placed. You seemed to disagree with the idea that they should be concentrated on main roadways, but I don't think you really disagree with that on closer inspection.

Fast chargers should be placed along main Dublin arteries, inside the M50 but outside the canals, if they're going to be anywhere in the city.

The existing choice of ESB FCPs in Dublin has kind of adhered to this approach, with a couple of exceptions. One near the Tallaght corridor, one on the N2 corridor, one on the N11, one near the Port Tunnel.

PickYourName

MJohnston wrote: »

So to go back to what the original disagreement was about - while the EV market is still growing, there has to be a compromise about where new charging infrastructure is placed. You seemed to disagree with the idea that they should be concentrated on main roadways, but I don't think you really disagree with that on closer inspection.

No, indeed I don't. I've consistently said that both should be addressed, not prioritise one over the other as others have suggested. They've also suggested we don't even need any in Dublin: I completely disagree with this, as it means there's no solution for the bulk of people who have no access to home or workplace charging.

Put the rapid chargers where they are needed: convenient to those with no possibility of home charging and adjacent to the main motorway and trunk road network for those on long jourmeys.

thelikelylad

innrain wrote: »

there is a new 50kW charger at ESB East Wall labelled RAPTION-0001 ESB ecars Test Lab, Model name Circontrol Raption 50



I hope they use 4 digits in labeling for good reason

I wonder are Circontrol supplying their new chargers going forward.

They have been installing Circontrol eVolve Smarts now in replacing older SCPs over the past few months.

I see they do a Raption 150 too. 150kW with CHAdeMO + CSS plugs. Capable of charging 2 cars simultaneously, 75kW to CCS, 50kW to CHAdeMO.

Possible contender for the future 'hubs'?

https://circontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Circontrol-Raption150.pdf

Gwen Cooper

https://www.esb.ie/images/default-source/zoo/esb-ecar-x8-fast-charging-unit-visual-v2-left-no-car.jpg

The 150kW look a bit different to that, but maybe it's just an artist impression.

Black_Knight

PickYourName wrote: »

No, indeed I don't. I've consistently said that both should be addressed, not prioritise one over the other as others have suggested. They've also suggested we don't even need any in Dublin: I completely disagree with this, as it means there's no solution for the bulk of people who have no access to home or workplace charging.

Put the rapid chargers where they are needed: convenient to those with no possibility of home charging and adjacent to the main motorway and trunk road network for those on long jourmeys.

Pie in the sky thinking though. ESB opening up flip all fcp. I was saying, though perhaps not clearly, that priority should go to main roads, not Dublin city centre. Eventually the "no home chargers" drivers will need to be addressed. Be that fcp or scp, but right now ESB are addressing neither.

innrain

150 kW is achieved only for 800V with this unit but it can be 2x75kW

PickYourName

Black_Knight wrote: »

I was saying, though perhaps not clearly, that priority should go to main roads, not Dublin city centre. Eventually the "no home chargers" drivers will need to be addressed.

Thanks - nice to be placed at the back of your particular queue......

Black_Knight

PickYourName wrote: »

Thanks - nice to be placed at the back of your particular queue......

Hey, if there's zero progress being made, does it matter where in the queue you are?

MJohnston

PickYourName wrote: »

Thanks - nice to be placed at the back of your particular queue......

It should be up to the owners of the various destination businesses (Tesco, shopping centres, etc) to address the charging needs of their customers with their own money. Indeed, Tesco already are with plenty of 22kW chargers being planned for their stores, places like Dundrum and Frascati have gotten private companies in to facilitate charging in their car parks. Beyond that, it's also up to local councils to put money into local destination charging.

ESB should fund route chargers first and foremost, I think that's a pretty smart priority to sway towards.

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

ESB should fund route chargers first and foremost, I think that's a pretty smart priority to sway towards.

NTA should fund inter-urban chargers
Councils should fund city charging hubs

Both with the funds available from the climate action fund, if Fingal county council wanted to install a Dundee style hub tomorrow in Blanchardstown they should have access to funds to do so. Whether eCars choose to bid on the operation of the site is a commercial decision for them.

We have a barebones interurban network today, we do not yet have a network for the place where the switch to EV will have the largest health effect (our major settlements).

irishgrover

liamog wrote: »

......
We have a barebones interurban network today, we do not yet have a network for the place where the switch to EV will have the largest health effect (our major settlements).

It's difficult to get the balance right. It's difficult to cover all the use cases.
However the reality (IMHO) is that the correct priority has to be inter-urban before urban.

A lot of people are saying that investing in turning Dublin EV would have a greater dividend (I agree), from an emissions pov, air quality pov etc etc.
A lot of people also say that Dublin EV drivers (or potential drivers) rarely leave Dublin (this is possibly true)
People say we should concentrate filling Dublin with FCPs because most people live there, and most rarely leave, and many don't have home charging, or don't have time to use a destination charger before a business meeting, or whatever...

However the reality is, even if Dublin has a FCP at the end of every street, that no more that 2% of those Dublin drivers, who rarely leave Dublin, would ever in a million years consider buying an EV if they could not goto Cork, Limerick, Galway, Donegal or wherever else.

PickYourName

(Message deleted, due to misreading of the comment to which it was referring)

PickYourName

irishgrover wrote: »

It's difficult to get the balance right. It's difficult to cover all the use cases.
However the reality (IMHO) is that the correct priority has to be inter-urban before urban.

A lot of people are saying that investing in turning Dublin EV would have a greater dividend (I agree), from an emissions pov, air quality pov etc etc.
A lot of people also say that Dublin EV drivers (or potential drivers) rarely leave Dublin (this is possibly true)
People say we should concentrate filling Dublin with FCPs because most people live there, and most rarely leave, and many don't have home charging, or don't have time to use a destination charger before a business meeting, or whatever...

However the reality is, even if Dublin has a FCP at the end of every street, that no more that 2% of those Dublin drivers, who rarely leave Dublin, would ever in a million years consider buying an EV if they could not goto Cork, Limerick, Galway, Donegal or wherever else.

Point taken, but my (different) opinion is that there is no need to prioritise one over the other; they are both currently inadaquate. The lack of urban charging making EV usage by those without home or workplace charging completely impractical. I wouldn't purchase an EV at the moment because of it; the question mark of availability of chargers to cover very occasional longer jourmeys I do wouldn't put me off.

irishgrover

PickYourName wrote: »

Point taken, but my (different) opinion is that there is no need to prioritise one over the other; they are both currently inadaquate. The lack of urban charging making EV usage by those without home or workplace charging completely impractical. I wouldn't purchase an EV at the moment because of it; the question mark of availability of chargers to cover very occasional longer jourmeys I do wouldn't put me off.

I fully understand and empathise with your view. However I disagree with it from an operational point of view. The solution to the vast majority of urban EV needs should be in the direct provision of, or enforced legislation of a solution. That solution being made up of mostly slower chargers.
Government (national or local) should be much more active in literally forcing introduction of charging infrastructure.
For example

• If you own a car park then 20% of all spaces should have chargers
• Management companies should be forced to provide charging facilities to private car parks in apartment complexes
• Local councils should agree on and implement a process for facilitating on street charging.
• Landlords should be forced to install EV chargers by default where parking exists
• Planning permission for all new builds should only be granted with provisions for charging points in every parking bay etc.

markpb

irishgrover wrote: »

Government (national or local) should be much more active in literally forcing introduction of charging infrastructure.

Those are very aspirational but I'm not sure how practical they are. The government has limited powers to force landowners to make changes. They can change the technical standards for new builds or when significant changes but it would be difficult to insist that car park owners and OMCs spend large amounts of money becoming complaint. In the case of OMCs, they probably wouldn't have the money and owners (the vast majority of whom do not own an EV) wouldn't appreciate a large jump in their management fees to pay for it.

I suspect the same applies for councils. Some of them might want to roll out lots of EV chargers but they don't have the money.

Someone has to pay for this stuff.