ESB eCars

liamog

Not really, ideally you want high powered charging hubs spread every 100km along major routes.

MJohnston

Black_Knight wrote: »

Where are the 2 rapids between Limerick and Cork? And the 4 between Limerick and Galway. From what I see there's 0 between Limerick and Cork, and 2 between Limerick and Galway (Shannon and Ennis).

Made it a year ago so I'm not particularly sure. There's definitely 1 rapid on the N20 right on the edge of Cork.

I think "between" is the wrong way to look at it — it's a measure of how many charge points you would encounter along or very near that journey.

Limerick to Galway I can see Shannon, Ennis, and a Circle K near Galway Airport. Arguably you could add the rapids in Galway and Limerick themselves.

I'm pretty sure I posted the rationale somewhere in this thread back when I created it.

Black_Knight

MJohnston wrote: »

Made it a year ago so I'm not particularly sure. There's definitely 1 rapid on the N20 right on the edge of Cork.

I think "between" is the wrong way to look at it — it's a measure of how many charge points you would encounter along or very near that journey.

Limerick to Galway I can see Shannon, Ennis, and a Circle K near Galway Airport. Arguably you could add the rapids in Galway and Limerick themselves.

I'm pretty sure I posted the rationale somewhere in this thread back when I created it.

Blackpool is Cork. It's a few km from the city center. I wouldn't count is as a charger on the Cork-Limerick route.

The Airport charger at Galway Airport isn't on the Limerick - Galway road. It's a detour.

I understand your thinking, but from my point of view if I can make it to Blackpool charger, I can make it to Cork. That unit doesn't help my journey. Now if I was coming from East or South Cork to Limerick, i'd consider it an addition to my journey. There's certainly a "this is too close to my start/end point to be of use to me" factor at play.

fricatus

Speaking of intercity routes, I happened to use the DC fast charger in Clonmel recently, the only one between Limerick and Waterford. It couldn't possibly be placed in a worse location - in a car park that's down a rabbet warren of one-way streets - inconvenient to get to, and what's worse, deserted and mildly intimidating even at 6 p.m. on a sunny evening. I'd hate to see it in the dark (were any women involved in the choice of location? No, of course not).

Particularly when you consider that Clonmel has a decent ring road, with plenty of petrol stations and even a Tesco along the route. Any of these would be a good location for a fast charger on the N24, so it makes it even more baffling that they went with the town-centre option.

eagerv

fricatus wrote: »

Speaking of intercity routes, I happened to use the DC fast charger in Clonmel recently, the only one between Limerick and Waterford. It couldn't possibly be placed in a worse location - in a car park that's down a rabbet warren of one-way streets - inconvenient to get to, and what's worse, deserted and mildly intimidating even at 6 p.m. on a sunny evening. I'd hate to see it in the dark (were any women involved in the choice of location? No, of course not).

Particularly when you consider that Clonmel has a decent ring road, with plenty of petrol stations and even a Tesco along the route. Any of these would be a good location for a fast charger on the N24, so it makes it even more baffling that they went with the town-centre option.

They have done the same in New Ross, put in a new triple head in a part of the town where I wouldn't like to leave (or stay with) my car at night. Very tight parking spaces. Also with the town by-passed doesn't make much sense. Had they gone on the quays near the Dunbrody ship it would at least be well lit and feel safer.

Black_Knight

fricatus wrote: »

Speaking of intercity routes, I happened to use the DC fast charger in Clonmel recently, the only one between Limerick and Waterford. It couldn't possibly be placed in a worse location - in a car park that's down a rabbet warren of one-way streets - inconvenient to get to, and what's worse, deserted and mildly intimidating even at 6 p.m. on a sunny evening. I'd hate to see it in the dark (were any women involved in the choice of location? No, of course not).

Particularly when you consider that Clonmel has a decent ring road, with plenty of petrol stations and even a Tesco along the route. Any of these would be a good location for a fast charger on the N24, so it makes it even more baffling that they went with the town-centre option.

Because it's the easiest way to show fake signs of progress. AC units have their place, DC units have their place. Seems ecars are more interested in increasing numbers of DC units rather than increasing the number of practical and usable DC units. Many of these DC locations are more suited to AC charging.

liamog

In one thread we've had a debate saying the future of town based charging is the installation of 50kW DC chargers in locations where there are coffee shops, supermarkets, and fast food.
Meanwhile in the thread where an operator is actually doing that people complain it's not suitable.

The 22kW to DC upgrades are not intended as mid journey hubs, that's what a HPC is for, these are ideally placed as short stay destination chargers.

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

The 22kW to DC upgrades are not intended as mid journey hubs, that's what a HPC is for, these are ideally placed as short stay destination chargers.

Af far as I know, almost everyone who posts here is an EV owner.
As EV owners, actual every day users of EVs, they find fault with eCars.

These include how slow they are to roll out hubs (zero so far - no a 150kW & 50kW DC site isn't a hub!), how slow they are to install any meaningful number of HPC units, how useless placing AC units in Tescos is, how their site layouts are terrible etc.
Now, from several posters who actually charged recently at some newly upgraded DC units - they are so badly located they would be scared to use them after dark.

But you say they are "ideally placed as short stay destination chargers".

Are the majority or EV owners here wrong? eCars, right?
That seems to be your stance. Nothing wrong with that, it's your opinion, but I expected better from eCars once they started charging & got the €10m from government. It could & should be soooooo much better, but no.

McGiver

MJohnston wrote:

Limerick to Galway I can see Shannon, Ennis, and a Circle K near Galway Airport. Arguably you could add the rapids in Galway and Limerick themselves.

Galway Airport, Carnmore, is in the f*cking middle of nowhere, in the middle of a farmland, cows and dung right behind the charger, literally. It's a detour even from the M6 what to speak of the M18 which is your Limerick route.

So no, this one doesn't count to the Galway-Limerick numbers... There's only two DC chargers there - Shannon and Ennis. Both are slight detours IMHO.

If you knew Galway you'd know that the DC chargers in in Galway City (just 2!) are in the most bogged down roads in the city so you absolutely can't count them either on that Galway-Limerick route.

McGiver

Black_Knight wrote:

Shannon and Limerick arent badly placed. Oranmore is handy when leaving Galway (return leg) going south. Galway city units are a bit off the main road.

How's Oranmore handy, it's where the dual carriage ends... Detour from the M6. And the M18 is far.

Why there should there be a hub there? Doesn't make sense to me..

Silent Running

eagerv wrote: »

They have done the same in New Ross, put in a new triple head in a part of the town where I wouldn't like to leave (or stay with) my car at night. Very tight parking spaces. Also with the town by-passed doesn't make much sense. Had they gone on the quays near the Dunbrody ship it would at least be well lit and feel safer.

The New Ross one is plain stupid! Look at the photos on Plugshare. The parking spaces are too short and are regularly iced.

They'd have been better off putting the new 22kW unit from Tesco there to replace the dodgy AC unit, and put the new DC unit up at Tesco. But that would only have made sense.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

In one thread we've had a debate saying the future of town based charging is the installation of 50kW DC chargers in locations where there are coffee shops, supermarkets, and fast food.
Meanwhile in the thread where an operator is actually doing that people complain it's not suitable.

The 22kW to DC upgrades are not intended as mid journey hubs, that's what a HPC is for, these are ideally placed as short stay destination chargers.

50kW DC units at coffee shops and supermarkets are useful, but not in a car park that's 10 minutes walk from these.
1. If I do my shop i'm not going to carry my shopping 5-10 minutes away to the charger, I want it on site. DC units at Tesco or SuperValu (come on EasyGo, ye can deliver) make more sense. AC has its place, but only where there's enough to occupy you for 2+ hours. The Circontrol Raption 50 units have 22kW AC, so IMO those would of made most sense at Tesco.

2. If i've to walk 5-10 minutes, that's 10-20 minutes of charging spent walking. The 45 minute overstay fee will start to play on your mind.

3. If my charge is a pitstop on my drive I just want to plug in, grab something quick and head off again. Without a cafe etc on site i'm probably going to have to pay for parking (depends on the local council) while I go find a cafe, and then encounter point 2 above.

4. If my charge is a bit more leisurely (weekly shop, cuppa with some friends) then I want the unit on site... or give me AC charging and I can take my time.

5. You say "22kW to DC upgrades are not intended as mid journey hubs" (lol, hubs) but that's what they are until Ecars provides better placed DC units at these mid journey locations. Ballina, Westport, Tralee, Cavan, Kilkenny, Birr, Clifden, Carrickmacross are all there because a DC unit was not. Those locations would benefit from DC chargers, but the locations chosen are poor.

ELM327

Short stay destination chargers with a 45 minute limit and degraded power supply!

eagerv

Silent Running wrote: »

The New Ross one is plain stupid! Look at the photos on Plugshare. The parking spaces are too short and are regularly iced.

They'd have been better off putting the new 22kW unit from Tesco there to replace the dodgy AC unit, and put the new DC unit up at Tesco. But that would only have made sense.

Not complaining about having a DC in New Ross, just the present location. Wouldn't park there after business hours and during the day is often ICE'd due to busy Hardware on corner.

I always thought the best location nearby would be at the busy spacious Centra/Services at Ballinaboola, an ideal location on the N25. There is nothing at the moment on the busy Cork to Wexford route without detouring and negotiating towns and all their problems.

MJohnston

McGiver wrote: »

Galway Airport, Carnmore, is in the f*cking middle of nowhere, in the middle of a farmland, cows and dung right behind the charger, literally. It's a detour even from the M6 what to speak of the M18 which is your Limerick route.

So no, this one doesn't count to the Galway-Limerick numbers... There's only two DC chargers there - Shannon and Ennis. Both are slight detours IMHO.

If you knew Galway you'd know that the DC chargers in in Galway City (just 2!) are in the most bogged down roads in the city so you absolutely can't count them either on that Galway-Limerick route.

The chart was only meant to be a basic, approximated look at how saturated each route is with charge points. A little bit of a detour to charge en-route was something I considered to be acceptable for those purposes (and I think that's fair - it's something most people are okay with if they really need the charge).

What I might do is go back and give a lower weighting to offline charging points than online ones, and recalculate. There's not going to be a huge difference though.

If I had spare time, I'd find all the charge point APIs, and create some kind of point-to-point "charging density" map. Actually, that's a lie, if I had spare time I'd probably sit and play No Man's Sky.

liamog

I think there is a very vocal minority who doesn't have a need for the 50kW local chargers, as such they would probable prefer no charger at all instead of the 50kW upgrades.

We've covered many times why eCars are doing in place upgrades of a 2x22kW with a 50kW unit, a point which is repeatedly lost on some people, so I'll repeat them.
Previous numbers shared in reports show that greater than 50% of the costs for a new charging location are site works and the local grid connection.
If the charger is €30,000, and site works €50,000 (rough numbers from RCN study), they could of rolled out 19 new charging locations instead of the 50 new locations for the same money.

50 new DC charging locations represents a large geographic spread of the network, they may not be ideally placed, but it's a big improvement on 2017 where there were only around 65 CCS location in the whole country.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

I think there is a very vocal minority who doesn't have a need for the 50kW local chargers, as such they would probable prefer no charger at all instead of the 50kW upgrades.

We've covered many times why eCars are doing in place upgrades of a 2x22kW with a 50kW unit, a point which is repeatedly lost on some people, so I'll repeat them.
Previous numbers shared in reports show that greater than 50% of the costs for a new charging location are site works and the local grid connection.
If the charger is €30,000, and site works €50,000 (rough numbers from RCN study), they could of rolled out 19 new charging locations instead of the 50 new locations for the same money.

50 new DC charging locations represents a large geographic spread of the network, they may not be ideally placed, but it's a big improvement on 2017 where there were only around 65 CCS location in the whole country.

Banks of local 50kW chargers are needed for sure.

innrain

ELM327 wrote: »

Banks of local 50kW chargers are needed for sure.

My problem with these replacements is that they should be left to smaller players. The national network is build with forward thinking big steps, showcasing the capabilities, setting examples. Ecars/ESB has the capacity to do just that. They've been given money to do just that. Unfortunately lack the ambition.

meanwhile on another planet... https://www.enbw.com/company/press/europe-s-largest-public-fast-charging-park-under-construction-1.html

liamog

Which 31 towns would people prefer didn't get at least a small element of DC charging from the current funding scheme?

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

Which 31 towns would people prefer didn't get at least a small element of DC charging from the current funding scheme?

Put DC charging in every small town - I'm all for it! We all want more beneficial charging available, we all want the same thing.

But not a single HPC, in or between our 2nd, 3rd & 4th largest cities, going into 2022, is just terrible.
Not even a single lowly 50kW DC, between the 2nd & 3rd largest cities.

I think you're the one in the vocal minority here, an apologist for eCars' lack of ambition & delivery :P.

ELM327

I've said it before and I'll say it again. When DC fast charging is as ubiquitous as fossil fuel stations then there will be no issues. Until then driving an EV requires some compromise. Even a Tesla.

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

Not even a single lowly 50kW DC, between the 2nd & 3rd largest cities.

It's a 100km route, why is it needed other than to support some very outdated cars?

Kramer wrote: »

I think you're the one in the vocal minority here, an apologist for eCars' lack of ambition & delivery :P.

Not at all Kramer, but I don't feel that 2 years of following every delivered charger with the same criticism is productive. There's a schedule of works that include roll out of 50 AC22 to 50kW DC upgrades, upgrade of 34 sites with an additional high power charger, and the roll out of 16 high speed hub locations.

I would also prefer that eCars prioritised the hub rollouts, but can at least understand why these take a bit more planning that a simple equipment replacement that goes with the rollout of the Circontrol units.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

It's a 100km route, why is it needed other than to support some very outdated cars?



Not at all Kramer, but I don't feel that 2 years of following every delivered charger with the same criticism is productive. There's a schedule of works that include roll out of 50 AC22 to 50kW DC upgrades, upgrade of 34 sites with an additional high power charger, and the roll out of 16 high speed hub locations.

I would also prefer that eCars prioritised the hub rollouts, but can at least understand why these take a bit more planning that a simple equipment replacement that goes with the rollout of the Circontrol units.

If they are not going to do the hubs, I'd like to at least see some of these! Where has one existing 50kW been added to with a HPC? I can think of perhaps one, Carrick on Shannon?

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

Which 31 towns would people prefer didn't get at least a small element of DC charging from the current funding scheme?

You're simplifying the argument. Towns need DC, at the right locations. Take the "Tesco installing AC" debate for example. Most I've heard has been that AC at Tesco is greenwashing, and 50kW DC would be more useful as I can get a decent charge while I do my shopping.
Towns also need AC, at the right locations - typically where longer term paid parking is, shopping centers, gyms, cinemas. The more commercial premises would most likely be privately installed units, but public car parks in town centers are useful for AC charging.

So which 31 towns would I prefer not get DC charging, none. They'd all benefit from it, in the right locations. Their service stations on main artery roadways would also benefit from DC charging, as that's where fast DC charging is most useful - plug in, grab a coffee, use the facilities, and be on your way.

In summary, Ecars did the best they could by installing DC units in towns where DC was lacking, but their best isn't near what it should have been.

liamog

Black_Knight wrote: »

So which 31 towns would I prefer not get DC charging, none. They'd all benefit from it, in the right locations. Their service stations on main artery roadways would also benefit from DC charging, as that's where fast DC charging is most useful - plug in, grab a coffee, use the facilities, and be on your way.

In summary, Ecars did the best they could by installing DC units in towns where DC was lacking, but their best isn't near what it should have been.

Given the limitation of spending €1.5 million of the allocated funds, do you think 19 sites given a new DC charger in a location would of been a better use than 50 sites given an upgrade? That's really what we're talking about in terms of choice here. As to locations, seems to me these chargers are being placed in locations that are a 5 min walk from town high streets. Not exactly an onerous trek.

The Tesco chargers are an absolute joke that they rolled out 22kW AC, the only saving grace is that they are sites ready for an upgrade to a 50kW DC in the future.

slave1

Of course towns need DC charging, we are entering a phase of PV ownership where it starts to make sense for those who cannot charge at home to DC charge once a week or so, this would easily do all the school runs, shopping trips, popping here and there etc on an ID4.
Yes, there are those that will buy the ID4 for this exact purpose.

kanuseeme

slave1 wrote: »

Of course towns need DC charging, we are entering a phase of PV ownership where it starts to make sense for those who cannot charge at home to DC charge once a week or so, this would easily do all the school runs, shopping trips, popping here and there etc on an ID4.
Yes, there are those that will buy the ID4 for this exact purpose.

No chance, if they do, they would be crazy to depend solely on a charging network to save €1.50 every 100 km they would travel

Cost to drive 100km EV compared to a 4.5l/100km diesel car.

PAYG

Standard*€3.97 Fast*€4.51 High Power*€5.48

**Member

Standard*€3.40 Fast*€3.97 High Power*€4.88

***Diesel

Diesel€5.44

*Based on the driving range of a 40kWh Nissan LEAF (WLTP)**The Membership price does not include €4.60 monthly subscription
***AA Roadwatch January 2021 diesel price average

fricatus

liamog wrote: »

Given the limitation of spending €1.5 million of the allocated funds, do you think 19 sites given a new DC charger in a location would of been a better use than 50 sites given an upgrade? That's really what we're talking about in terms of choice here.

Yes, go with a location on a main road every time. I can't speak for everyone, but most of my DC charging is on my way from one place to another, and the ideal location is at a service station on the main road. I must have spent 20 minutes diverting to the Clonmel charger the other day, in addition to the time I spent charging.

With all due respect to Clonmel, I had no desire to be there, or in any other town centre - I just wanted to charge and keep going - pee and get coffee maybe. I'm sure 19 chargers at new locations on main roads would have covered nearly all the gaps on the main roads that still remain.

liamog wrote: »

As to locations, seems to me these chargers are being placed in locations that are a 5 min walk from town high streets. Not exactly an onerous trek.

You're completely missing the point about these locations here. Try to put yourself in the shoes of a woman travelling alone after dark, or anyone travelling with an elderly relative or small children. There are all sorts of good reasons - to do with convenience and safety - why petrol pumps are in well-lit forecourts right next to the main road, with coffee, snacks and toilets located only footsteps away. DC chargers fulfil exactly the same role for EV drivers and therefore should be in the same sort of location.

liamog

fricatus wrote: »

You're completely missing the point about these locations here. Try to put yourself in the shoes of a woman travelling alone after dark, or anyone travelling with an elderly relative or small children. There are all sorts of good reasons - to do with convenience and safety - why petrol pumps are in well-lit forecourts right next to the main road, with coffee, snacks and toilets located only footsteps away. DC chargers fulfil exactly the same role for EV drivers and therefore should be in the same sort of location.

No, you're missing the point about these locations. The upgrades to provide DC charging in towns is about serving the market of people who will take on board a decent charge whilst going about their business in a town. Why is there now a moral panic because the town centre car park is served by a 50kW DC charger instead of a 22kW AC charger?

There's plenty of other investment under the programme in online services and ensuring their is adequate on-route charging infrastructure, providing 50kW in towns will help a lot of people. I'm lucky in that I have two 50kW DC chargers within 5km of the house. They are ideal for when you need a boost due to higher than expected daily usage, instead of having to drive 40km to nearest motorway service station, I can drive to Lucan, rapid charge for 30mins and grab a coffee.

ELM327

liamog wrote: »

No, you're missing the point about these locations. The upgrades to provide DC charging in towns is about serving the market of people who will take on board a decent charge whilst going about their business in a town. Why is there now a moral panic because the town centre car park is served by a 50kW DC charger instead of a 22kW AC charger?

There's plenty of other investment under the programme in online services and ensuring their is adequate on-route charging infrastructure, providing 50kW in towns will help a lot of people. I'm lucky in that I have two 50kW DC chargers within 5km of the house. They are ideal for when you need a boost due to higher than expected daily usage, instead of having to drive 40km to nearest motorway service station, I can drive to Lucan, rapid charge for 30mins and grab a coffee.

Because there's a different use case. With DC charging its ecpected to be en route. We don't have enough critical mass to allow the DC chargers be used for 1.5-2hrs that it would take to recharge the newer larger battery cars at 44kW.


If we had banks of 10+ 44kW DC chargers (eg at Blanch) that would be perfect. No time limit, go shopping for 1-3 hours and come back.

kanuseeme wrote: »

No chance, if they do, they would be crazy to depend solely on a charging network to save €1.50 every 100 km they would travel

Cost to drive 100km EV compared to a 4.5l/100km diesel car.

PAYG

Standard*€3.97 Fast*€4.51 High Power*€5.48

**Member

Standard*€3.40 Fast*€3.97 High Power*€4.88

***Diesel

Diesel€5.44

*Based on the driving range of a 40kWh Nissan LEAF (WLTP)**The Membership price does not include €4.60 monthly subscription
***AA Roadwatch January 2021 diesel price average

This is the thing. Charging en route can be more expensive than a diesel. I found this on my cork trips. Even using Tesla superchargers it still can be, and the ecars cost on PAYG (monthly sub doesnt pay for itself) is even more expensive. However most charging is done at home, so I'm ok with that.