ESB eCars

ELM327

Yes, you'd need 10 chademo plugs to trickle charge a leaf, vs 1 ccs plug to charge an 800v car or a new tesla.

oscarBravo

There's one good argument for a forecourt layout as opposed to a parking space layout: trailers and caravans. I watched an Ioniq 5 pulling a caravan arrive at a 50kW charger once. It was a lot more complicated than fueling an ICE car would have been.

dsandson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654630#Comment_119654630

Yeah the new Fastned station in Glasgow has a good layout for this. A central island with bay parking for cars, with one end of the island having an extra charger providing a drive through bay. Unfortunately until these chargers get much larger its just as likely to turn up and have a single car charging from the drive through bay anyway!

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654458#Comment_119654458

You'd imagine too that the vast majority of CCS sessions (on HPC's) would be a lot shorter than the CHAdeMO sessions (on all FCP's/HPC's), so although the usage ratio might be 4:1 in favour of CCS going by minutes in use, the power taken on board as you say will be a lot higher on the CCS HPC's

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654458#Comment_119654458

Is that still true when you consider that only the higher end cars can charge above 100kW and the vast majority of chargers are limited to 50kW?

As you say Chademo cars tend to charge more often than CCS ones as their batteries are on average much smaller, another good reason to keep the plugs

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119654964#Comment_119654964

Any of the 3 car "hubs" that I've seen lately always have CCS cars on the 50kW unit. Now maybe the official figures will show differently and calling a station that charges 3 cars simultaneously a "hub" is the most laughable part of this thread so far I'd imagine

shanec1928

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119653876#Comment_119653876

Either way you want to divvy it out the breakdown, it's irrelevant, and we should not be investing in a dead standard. Keep what's there fine, but any new upgrades should be CSS only. im not quite sure why this discussion keeps coming up despite the same facts been repeated.

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655568#Comment_119655568

He has a Leaf.

shanec1928

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655590#Comment_119655590

I know, but it's like deja vu, having the same discussion every few weeks.

ELM327

@shanec1928 I dunno, it's a great refresh of how bad ownership bias can distort your views - to the point you start making up anecdotal data that contradicts actual data

TitianGerm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655605#Comment_119655605

He's looking out for his own interests and will not see past those.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655568#Comment_119655568

I wouldn't call it a dead standard, to me a dead standard is something nobody uses anymore. Chademo is far from that in my books

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655590#Comment_119655590

Smart guess... I'm guessing you don't?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655615#Comment_119655615

There are people on here who feel that because they bought a car with a CCS plug they deserve to jump the charging queue. If that's not biased I don't know what is

I've always maintained that we need more chargers and that all of them should be dual-headed in an effort to drive a general increase in EVs, new and used across our society so I don't feel that's biased either

ELM327

50;50 between a small group of chademo and a large (and expanding) group of ccs is not equal, it's biased towards chademo. When you ignore stats, you get nonsense.

liamog

I wouldn't call it a dead standard, to me a dead standard is something nobody uses anymore. Chademo is far from that in my books

CHAdeMO in the EU is no longer a standard, it's a legacy connector that has been abandoned by it's main sponsor. There won't be any more new vehicles released with it in this market. I feel sorry for the people who ignored the writing on the wall. It was pretty obvious that network expansion was going to prioritise the accepted standard, and slowly cut off CHAdeMO. The only thing more short-sighted than Nissan not switching to CCS with the Leaf 40 was Lexus releasing the UX 300e with it.

There are people on here who feel that because they bought a car with a CCS plug they deserve to jump the charging queue. If that's not biased I don't know what is

The only people who seem to feel queue skipping is necessary are CHAdeMO owners who feel that equal provision should be made for their mistakes. If a site can charge 16 cars at once, but 8 of those spaces are allocated for a connector which serves 10% of the market, then its not an equal provision.

I've always maintained that we need more chargers and that all of them should be dual-headed in an effort to drive a general increase in EVs, new and used across our society so I don't feel that's biased either

Dual-headed is such a waste, chargers have an 8-10 year life span before they are replaced. There isn't the volume today to justify it, the numbers are only going in one direction.

mfceiling

The Chademo/CCS argument is a bit like when unleaded petrol started to become a thing years ago.

The older pumps were 2 star and 4 star but gradually every car was moving towards unleaded. No petrol retailer made provisions to keep the old pumps and eventually they were redundant.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655534#Comment_119655534

Probably no argument will convince you. Anyway it is not true that only higher end cars are charging at rates of 100kW.

Here is the top 10 EV sales of this year.

It is easier to count which is not charging over 100kW. Beside Leaf, Kona/Niro and Zoe. All 3 old models pre 2020. Some on the list charge at 150kW+ so you may call this higher class for a while.

Coming back to charging layout there is a nice presentation from Fastned at their charging day. pdf and video. It is nearly 3h presentation but quite interesting to see how much effort they put in the charging experience. Layout bit starts at page 32. No surprise they prefer the petrol station layout with canopy. But they have arguments: one way traffic, accommodates vans/trailers/bikes racks, easier to queue, minimizes the time between sessions, easy scalable. The reason for not having canopy in Ireland is "It is expensive". The reason for having canopy at Fastned is "Visibility and recognition are crucial in our business". And it worked. While renting a Leaf is Switzerland I saw the canopy from afar and decided to stop and charge. (4x 300kW CCS and 2x50kW CHAdeMO). This is called thinking big. Unfortunately we won't see them here anytime soon, but nice to see a company not looking down at their users.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655534#Comment_119655534

Althea majority of what cars are limited to 50kw?

Black_Knight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656412#Comment_119656412

The fast chargers are mostly 50kW is the point being made. It's a fair point as regards to kWh consumed and whether CCS plugs are more profitable when in use. But it can't be denied that CCS is more profitable - it can charge over 50kW, very rare for CHAdeMO to be able to do that. CCS has 10x the number of cars on the road, and 3x the amount of time spent charging.

So from a business POV, installing more CCS plugs is best.

From a consumer equality of opportunity POV, installing more CCS is best.

Doing 50:50 installs is foolish and wasteful, unless you're ignorant to statistics.

Black_Knight

Hpc stats for the last 7 days (granted there's more CCS than CHAdeMO hpc plugs out there) are highly skewed towards CCS. Makes sense to me they'd be closer than the overall stats, given most drivers would gravitate towards a hub to avoid a single point of failure.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656267#Comment_119656267

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119656412#Comment_119656412

I know the MG cars, Opel corsa e and Peugeot e208 can charge at up to 100kW but what other affordable cars can do over 50kW? Certainly 150kW+ is reserved for the ones you need a second mortgage for

From the list above of the top 10 the Niro, leaf, Kona and Zoe are probably the only non-high end ones out there and I think the Kona is the only one that can do over 50kW? Open to correction there

Fact is if we want to promote the move from ICEs to EVs we need to have more charging stations (don't think anybody disagrees with this to be fair) and every station fitted with both plugs similar to the Delta units that you find at the hubs and have less in-fighting. We do this with 90% of liquid fuel filling stations for the Diesel/Petrol ratio

For the record the hubs that prioritize chademo, such as the ones at J18 are wrong in my mind also, that particular hub should have 6 plugs and 3 to be used at a time

vinniem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119658435#Comment_119658435

Niro can do 77KW

liamog

From the list above of the top 10 the Niro, leaf, Kona and Zoe are probably the only non-high end ones out there and I think the Kona is the only one that can do over 50kW? Open to correction there

Of the top 25 EVs sold this year the only one's with CCS that can't go higher than 50kW are the Zoe and Mini. Everything else can. The industry has moved on.

We do this with 90% of liquid fuel filling stations for the Diesel/Petrol ratio

Petrol and diesel doesn't have a 80%/20% split on the road and sales of 90+% petrol per year. If the numbers were like that we wouldn't see an equal split of petrol and diesel pumps.

Fingleberries

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119655605#Comment_119655605

Now that the Chademo vs CCS discussion is taking place, how long before we can return to the Blanchardstown Shopping Centre ESB charging 'Hub' layout discussion? 😁

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119663748#Comment_119663748

Followed by a round of chargers should be only at locations where people don't want to spend time 🤣

Cars that advertise 100+ Kw such as the ID cars doesn't mean they can charge at 100+ Kw for any length of time, certainly my id.3 tour 5 77 Kwh has never seen more than 60 Kwh when plugging in at around 30% charge, this is shameful in 2022.

Not everyone can or will risk getting to a charger at less than 20% charge.

What's more important to know is the charge time from 20-80%

My old BMW i3 had a far better charging curve using 2016 tech, it was basically flat to around 85%.

For some reason it will only charge at around 50 Kw on an ESB 150 Kw charger, 60 Kw ionity so in reality it's not worth the premium using a higher power charger when plugging in from 30%, absolute joke.

I am hoping VW will fix the woeful charging speeds but 11 months later, I have little hope, perhaps new cars will have better charging curves, lower charging times but 60 Kw on a 82 Kwh battery is an embarrassment to VW.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119663748#Comment_119663748

Actually I was about to mention that I was there yesterday and saw the nightmare scenario, two Leafs were charging and using all the Chademo plugs, with no CCS plugs in use

I think that's an Ecars complaint double whammy 😂

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665309#Comment_119665309

I think I read somewhere that the Tour has a different battery chemistry to the other ID.3s and 4s. It apparently uses the same battery as the GTX which is designed for a lot of discharge power but can't sustain the full charging speed for very long

That's why for example the ID.4 is getting a 135kW peak but can sustain over 100kW for much longer with the new curve. On the other hand, the ID.3 Tour is getting a 170kW peak but it'll drop down more quickly, same as the current curve

I dunno why they put the GTX battery in the Tour, doesn't seem to make sense given there's never going to be an AWD in this version of the ID.3. I guess VW probably just had a bunch of those batteries on hand

Also, it might be worth checking your cell voltages given there's currently a recall on a bunch of ID cars for imbalanced battery packs?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665679#Comment_119665679

That's the issue now is that you never know what chemistry is in any ev, could be a completely different battery in a years time.

Peak charging is not really what we should be looking for but the charge times, I would hope vw allow a higher charge current above 10-30%.

As I said, from my id3 tour 5 I have never seen anything above 60 Kw or 50 Kw on ESB 150 Kw, and that's plugging in at around 30% but the battery would probably need to be warmer and there is not yet any rumour of any preheating for fast charging.

They might fix it by 3.0 but that will be the end of 2023 at least and I'll be 2 years in my PCP at that rate, just lucly I rarely need fast charging these days but it's a pain in the arse when I need it along with broken chargers.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119665642#Comment_119665642

Do you mean there was a CCS plug free for a car to rock up and use without queuing? Oh the horrors!

liamog

As I said, from my id3 tour 5 I have never seen anything above 60 Kw or 50 Kw on ESB 150 Kw, and that's plugging in at around 30% but the battery would probably need to be warmer and there is not yet any rumour of any preheating for fast charging.

Charging with 30% on an ID.3 tour seems very high for somebody with your experience level of EVs, what kind of range do you still have at that state of charge?

I watched an interesting interview with VW, they were surprised that people are charging the cars with 150km of range left, and so not benefitting from capabilities of the platform. They're are planning on working on the battery chemistry to improve the ability to sustain a higher charge speed for longer. They were expecting people to charge at between 20km and 50km of available range.