ESB eCars

McGiver

Deleted User wrote:

Since I don't do the shopping it bothers me not haha but when I go on a long drive or staying away for a week or weekend, 11 Kw AC is a Godsend provided there's a charge point near by. Plug in and I either got enough charge for next destination or it saves me having to sit twiddling my thumbs for 30 mins at a fast charger or 40-45 mins if the battery is cold.

By the way this is one of the reasons why the new 44kW units instead of the old 2x22kW are potentially worse for us 11+ kW AC capable.
Right now, in many towns and rural places, when visiting, we come there plug in the 22 kW AC, do our business for an hour or two and then off we go. With the stupid new unit, can't leave it charging. Will have to come back and waste 30-40 minutes waiting for the DC charge, and that's assuming it is empty. Total waste of time...

MJohnston

unkel wrote: »

Unless you have the oldest i3, your car can charge at 11kW. And if you take your time having a coffee and then do your leasurely weekly shop, you're probably talking the guts of 2 hours, so 22kWh charged, that starts making sense alright

More like 1-1.5 hours usually, but even if I was only there for 45 minutes, that's about 50km range added, which covers the drive there and back and then some.

Anyway, aren't you always saying that we need to build charging infrastructure for the EVs of the future? Those cars that can't do 11kW-22kW charging are just artefacts of the past

I also have an untethered home unit, so I don't have the crippling fear of having to plug in two ends of a cable that you lot seem to have - I can only imagine the trembling is why it's taking 2 minutes to plug in

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

By the way this is one of the reasons why the new 44kW units instead of the old 2x22kW are potentially worse for us 11+ kW AC capable.
Right now, in many towns and rural places, when visiting, we come there plug in the 22 kW AC, do our business for an hour or two and then off we go. With the stupid new unit, can't leave it charging. Will have to come back and waste 30-40 minutes waiting for the DC charge, and that's assuming it is empty. Total waste of time...

What's the story with the new 44 Kwh again, they got 1 AC and 1 DC ?

zg3409

Deleted User wrote: »

What's the story with the new 44 Kwh again, they got 1 AC and 1 DC ?

Typically they are installed in town with multiple 2 x 22kW AC chargers. One is replaced with a 1 x 44kW DC Charger with chademo and CCS. AC is severely limited to a socket with Max 6kW AC typically 2kW for cars with 7kW chargers. Its a bit pointless on AC but handy if charger is broken on DC or if you are queueing.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

How many of you "I wouldn't be arsed with faffing around plugging in" are the same people who tell petrol heads that refueling is a doddle because it only takes me seconds to plug in at night?

Tethered charger, no app vs non tethered charger with app/rfid

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

Tethered charger, no app vs non tethered charger with app/rfid

Most of the existing Tesco chargers don't require any app, card, or tag. They're like the DLRCC ones where you just plug in and it starts.

I'd guess the ESB ones will require a card/app, but maybe if they're Tesco funded they won't.

JohnC.

You'll probably spend more time deciding which biscuits to buy in the shop that you will spend "faffing" plugging in the cable.

liamog

I do wonder who's advising supermarkets in Ireland that these are the "optimum" chargers. We know now that a 2x22kW AC can be swapped with a 44kW CCS charger, I presume that means the same site can be supplied with 2 22kW DC chargers.
Tesco investing a little bit extra and supplying those would offer far more benefit to far more people. Pre Zoe 50 drivers would be cut out, but it's not like they are the majority of EVs on our roads.

unkel

MJohnston wrote: »

Anyway, aren't you always saying that we need to build charging infrastructure for the EVs of the future? Those cars that can't do 11kW-22kW charging are just artefacts of the past

Looks like you were only half listening to me

We need a (super) fast charging network that covers the country where you can quickly top up if you're doing long distance travel or where people charge who can't charge at home or work. Not re-inventing the wheel here, it's a bit like we have been filling up with petrol / diesel for the last 80-90 years :pac:

There is a place for AC (slow) charging, but only at destinations where people are going to stop for several hours anyway. Like mostly at home and at work. But also at malls where there are cinemas or restaurants, in city or town centres, at beauty / walking spots. Not so much at supermarkets where people spend just 30 minutes and where plugging in is just a waste of time.

ELM327

I know from dealing with teh facilities folks at work, that the installers (and we dealt with 3) are all pushing the 22kW AC as the "fastest and best future proof" for destination charging.

I don't know where that's coming from. 22kW/11kW/7kW is pretty similar at work where (bau) you're there for 8-10 hours anyway. In tesco there's a big difference between AC and 44kW DC

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Looks like you were only half listening to me

We need a (super) fast charging network that covers the country where you can quickly top up if you're doing long distance travel or where people charge who can't charge at home or work. Not re-inventing the wheel here, it's a bit like we have been filling up with petrol / diesel for the last 80-90 years :pac:

There is a place for AC (slow) charging, but only at destinations where people are going to stop for several hours anyway. Like mostly at home and at work. But also at malls where there are cinemas or restaurants, in city or town centres, at beauty / walking spots. Not so much at supermarkets where people spend just 30 minutes and where plugging in is just a waste of time.

Agree 100%


If you want 2*22kW then install 2*22kW DC IMO

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

I do wonder who's advising supermarkets in Ireland that these are the "optimum" chargers. We know now that speaking a 2x22kW AC can be swapped with a 44kW CCS charger, I presume that means the same site can be supplied with 2 22kW DC chargers.
Tesco investing a little bit extra and supplying those would offer far more benefit to far more people. Pre Zoe 50 drivers would be cut out, but it's not like they are the majority of EVs on our roads.

Except a 44kW CCS charger becomes an attraction for people who aren't going to shop there. Of course Tesco want more people to spend more time near their stores.

Plus it would likely also have to be paid for by customers, and I'm guessing Tesco wants to offer free charging.

MJohnston

unkel wrote: »

Looks like you were only half listening to me

We need a (super) fast charging network that covers the country where you can quickly top up if you're doing long distance travel or where people charge who can't charge at home or work. Not re-inventing the wheel here, it's a bit like we have been filling up with petrol / diesel for the last 80-90 years :pac:

There is a place for AC (slow) charging, but only at destinations where people are going to stop for several hours anyway. Like mostly at home and at work. But also at malls where there are cinemas or restaurants, in city or town centres, at beauty / walking spots. Not so much at supermarkets where people spend just 30 minutes and where plugging in is just a waste of time.

But it's not a waste of time - it's only a waste of time if you don't have a modern EV capable of faster AC charging!

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

Except a 44kW CCS charger becomes an attraction for people who aren't going to shop there. Of course Tesco want more people to spend more time near their stores.

Plus it would likely also have to be paid for by customers, and I'm guessing Tesco wants to offer free charging.

I mentioned installing 2 22kW DC chargers?

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

I mentioned installing 2 22kW DC chargers?

What's the cost difference to Tesco?

unkel

MJohnston wrote: »

But it's not a waste of time - it's only a waste of time if you don't have a modern EV capable of faster AC charging!

Agreed. If 22kW AC charging (or at a push 11kW AC charging) became the norm in all EVs. Still only if you are at your destination for at least a few hours though

I feel it is more important to focus on the nationwide network of fast chargers though rather than public slow destination charging. Once the former is in place, we can concentrate on how to cope with a million or more EVs over the next two decades and where they are all going to charge.

In a country like the Netherlands, there are fast chargers everywhere. Nobody needs home or work charging to own an EV. Just like nobody fills up with petrol or diesel at home or at work

MJohnston

unkel wrote: »

Agreed. If 22kW AC charging (or at a push 11kW AC charging) became the norm in all EVs. Still only if you are at your destination for at least a few hours though

Well that's a personal choice - I'm happy just recouping my mileage for getting to the shop, as well as being able to run the AC while parked when it's hot out (especially important if I'm doing multiple grocery stops as often happens).

I feel it is more important to focus on the nationwide network of fast chargers though rather than public slow destination charging. Once the former is in place, we can concentrate on how to cope with a million or more EVs over the next two decades and where they are all going to charge.

In a country like the Netherlands, there are fast chargers everywhere. Nobody needs home or work charging to own an EV. Just like nobody fills up with petrol or diesel at home or at work

I'm not disagreeing with any of this, but the topic at hand was Tesco's charging stations specifically

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

What's the cost difference to Tesco?

It's been a while but a 50kW charger costs about €30,000, the commercial grade 22kW AC cost about €8,000 so the price is somewhere between the two, I'd guess around €25,000 total. Supermarkets on the continent tend to install them.

What was the offer they used to do, 8c per litre when you spent over €80. With an average fill of 30l that's around €2.50 per customer. Roughly in line with what you'd save with an hour charging at 22kW for free.

Black_Knight

ELM327 wrote: »

I know from dealing with teh facilities folks at work, that the installers (and we dealt with 3) are all pushing the 22kW AC as the "fastest and best future proof" for destination charging.

I don't know where that's coming from. 22kW/11kW/7kW is pretty similar at work where (bau) you're there for 8-10 hours anyway. In tesco there's a big difference between AC and 44kW DC

Seems overkill to me. I'd be reasonably happy with a 3 pin socket at my work (granted i've a short commute and an efficient car), but 22kW charge points seems excessive. Battery size isn't going to keep growing like it has in recent years, as the need for extra range (already have cars doing 400km+) and the cost of adding those extra kms and the additional weight it would add limit the battery capacity. Perhaps having 1 would be useful for visitors, but for staff, it's free charging. Beggars can't be choosers.

slave1

A lot of work places will have guys out on the road etc where they will not be 9-5 so 22kW makes sense.
If there is little in the cost difference go for the 22kW so all cars are covered to their maximum potential, the 3.3 Leafs through to the 22 Zoe

slave1

unkel wrote: »

In a country like the Netherlands, there are fast chargers everywhere. Nobody needs home or work charging to own an EV. Just like nobody fills up with petrol or diesel at home or at work

Have to disagree with some of that, I think if we were a 3phase country (like Germany?) then we could have serious home charging and along with cars with increased range then we would all be charging at home/at night when industrial/commercial and residential demand is low.

As you know we can't store our electricity in Ireland (reservoirs being the exception) and as you also know we tend to have a higher percentage of "green" electricity at night.

Putting these together I think we are better off with greener home charging at night versus more pollutive rapid charging during the day....

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

Seems overkill to me. I'd be reasonably happy with a 3 pin socket at my work (granted i've a short commute and an efficient car), but 22kW charge points seems excessive. Battery size isn't going to keep growing like it has in recent years, as the need for extra range (already have cars doing 400km+) and the cost of adding those extra kms and the additional weight it would add limit the battery capacity. Perhaps having 1 would be useful for visitors, but for staff, it's free charging. Beggars can't be choosers.

That was my point. I actually asked for the 22kW units to be switched down to 7kW and install more 7kW using the same power.


Myself and another tesla owner were charging at a combined 33kW, while the other posts were also in use so the power is there.


Instead, what did we get, one more 22kW dual post! Silly! I'd have been happy with a couple of 7kW, one 22kW for visitors and a rake of 16a blue plugs and locked 3pin sockets.

liamog

slave1 wrote: »

Have to disagree with some of that, I think if we were a 3phase country (like Germany?) then we could have serious home charging and along with cars with increased range then we would all be charging at home/at night when industrial/commercial and residential demand is low.

I don't think we need any serious move to domestic 3 phase power. We have 9 hours of night rate electricity, that's 66.2kWh of available power to your car per night from a 32A charger.

unkel

And 66.2kWh even in a "gas" guzzler EV using 20kWh/100km is enough for 331km per day, or over 120k km per year. Who does more than that?

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

And 66.2kWh even in a "gas" guzzler EV using 20kWh/100km is enough for 331km per day, or over 120k km per year. Who does more than that?

my average consumption is 230wh/km over the 22k km I did so far.

When on only motorway that tends towards 250wh/km.


I do 120km commute on the weekdays and tend to have committed 2*160-180km round trips at the weekend (the joys of blended families).


I was finding that, at 7kW, starting at midnight and needing to leave for work at 7am wasnt giving enough power for the longer trip days (ie if I had another trip in addition to 120km return to work) 7hrs * 7kW = 49kWh minus 6kWh on heat in the winter is 43kWh. At 250wh/km that doesnt even give 200km.

liamog wrote: »

I don't think we need any serious move to domestic 3 phase power. We have 9 hours of night rate electricity, that's 66.2kWh of available power to your car per night from a 32A charger.

When we move house next year I'll be getting 3 phase installed.
I intend to max out on solar and storage, sink the costs and be off grid during the day. Need a 22kW inverter at night to do that and charge the car.

slave1

liamog wrote: »

I don't think we need any serious move to domestic 3 phase power. We have 9 hours of night rate electricity, that's 66.2kWh of available power to your car per night from a 32A charger.

It was a general comment as a comparative to a country where 3phase is more the normality.
Remember with 3 phase we would not need load balancing or any extra boxes to ensure we don't blow the house fuse.

66.2kWh in a few years to charge two EVs, let's see how that will turn out.

That would not allow me to charge our two EVs right now if we were both out and about the following day and required full charges, this is setting aside the cut out/lower rate making it's way to the EVs when the electric shower cuts in....

Black_Knight

I've hear pricing for AC is coming in next month. Similar (but cheaper) price per kWh as DC. What will the freeloaders do now?

slave1

Black_Knight wrote: »

I've hear pricing for AC is coming in next month. Similar (but cheaper) price per kWh as DC. What will the freeloaders do now?

Pricing, but not being implemented until next year....

AC Network
The AC network is currently being upgraded and continues to be free to use while these upgrades are taking place. Pricing will be introduced for the AC network in 2020. Please check our website and social media channels for updates.

AndyBoBandy

Black_Knight wrote: »

I've hear pricing for AC is coming in next month. Similar (but cheaper) price per kWh as DC. What will the freeloaders do now?

Did they not defer it til next year?

ELM327

It's 2021 they confirmed in a FB post a while back, originally meant to be this year but postponed due to covid