ESB eCars

Genghis

The reality is the majority of people are happy enough paying the same (or even higher) price per km for public charging as other drivers pay for fossil fuels.

Some of this may be due to expensed / BIK incentivised EVs, I think a lot of it is that people simply are conditioned to handing out €100+ every week or two to fuel a car.

While eCars and others prices may have risen last year to match rising wholesale, they are not falling today because the market is bearing the price. Price has also moderated demand, even as the elwctric fleet expands, allowing them more space to build up capacity.

Notice how new operators enter at 75c (or 99p in UK). Because they will get it.

Notice how no operator competes for custom on price (discounts when available have commitment fees to ensure they apply only at high volume). Because they don't have to.

This situation will probably persist (unless there is an intervention, or an aggressive market entrant), or if we reach a time where there is way more supply than demand.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976047#Comment_120976047

But if you don't have home charging, as is the argument that is being made above, what do you do?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976065#Comment_120976065

The challenges and costs of reliance on public charging networks are massively overwrought

Are they really though? Just yesterday there was a porsche charging for 1.5hrs yesterday at the only DC point in Dungarvan while a queue built behind him... All AC points in the town were also taken and I'm not aware of any cheaper AC or DC charging rate than 50.9c. Scary stuff to a petrol or diesel driver

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976154#Comment_120976154

Should a person who lives in South Dublin where there are a large number of accessible DC chargers take their car back to the dealers because there aren't enough charges in a town with less than 10,000 people in Waterford?

This is exactly where the ridiculousness comes in, we all know there are areas of the country where the charging networks are sparse. The sparse areas tend to be in places with low populations and places where off street parking is common. Anybody thinking of buying an EV should consider their local charging situation, whether that be installing a point on their drive, or assessing local opportunities to charge.

It's only scary to diesel and petrol drivers because they keep listening to drivers who's only experience is running an EV with home charging.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120975545#Comment_120975545

The big problem is the amount of time people without home charging collectively take chargers out of circulation for.

But I can only see per kwh prices at chargers going up anyway. I dont see them ever coming down.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976181#Comment_120976181

They're called customers, and they are better for network expansion than a person who uses the charging network 4 times a year.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976189#Comment_120976189

They are not good for the general uptake and impression of EVs though. So choose your poison.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976201#Comment_120976201

I would strongly disagree with that point. The biggest thing currently holding back EV uptake is public charging infrastructure. Public charging infrastructure only expands as it becomes viable to run. To be viable it needs more customers. A customer who charges the car once a week is 13x better than a customer who charges 4 times a year. The best way to ensure there is a usable charger when you need it is to increase the number of chargers that are installed at any one location, this will only come from people using them.

For some reason people have a warped view of the EV charging space, they seem to think it will be the first market in history where increased demand does not lead to increased investment. We've seen in the last 12 months that the numbers of EVs on the road has reached a critical mass where commercial expansion now makes sense. No surprises that we've seen Applegreen move in to the space, with Maxol, SSE, and others following.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976233#Comment_120976233

Heres an easy question for you. Has getting a charge got any easier since the recent uptick in EVs, or has i got worse?

10-10-20

@liamog as I think you'll agree, there are two types of roll-out of infrastructure: leading or lagging.

Tesla rolled out a leading infrastructure - they provisioned more DC chargers than they had customers to use them and this then become a sales tool to promote confidence in the charging infrastructure. That's well and good when you're well funded.

Almost all other charging providers are rolling out a lagging infrastructure where the customer usage drives the future investment. That's problematic as there has to be pain felt by the customer base while the network expands, and this keeps pricing up. That's where the negative impressions which @DownByTheGarden mentions comes into the conversation as it's only too easy to share bad-news-stories and spread FUD.

But yes you are right about the fact that we've now hit the inflection point and the fuel providers are now looking at their future customer base and realising that there are threats on the horizon.

kanuseeme

Model 3

€800 Est. Electricity/yr

Petrol Car

€1,000 Est. Fuel/yr

We've assumed a fuel economy of 6.4 l/100 km for a comparable petrol powered car. We've also assumed the national average of €0.55 per kilowatt-hour for residential electricity (assumed for 100% charging) and €1.63 per litre for petrol over 10000 km.

According to Tesla, savings are only 200 euro a year, if I had no access to home charging night rate, it would really want to be something special, which in my opinion most cars are not, let alone any EV.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976252#Comment_120976252

In my location it's gotten much much easier. ESB have been rolling out their hubs that are capable of charging 3 CCS cars at once. Applegreen have also rolled out a multi DC charger location. Outside of my immediate locale, Applegreen entering the market has added extra infrastructure. Northern Ireland has seen huge increases in the amount of DC charging available to me.

@10-10-20 totally agree with their being a lag in infrastructure vs requirements, but I think we're in a massively improved situation than we were 12 months ago.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976329#Comment_120976329

If you're based in NI, then I see your frustration! It was quite shambolic but moves are afoot.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976181#Comment_120976181

The big problem is having insufficient public charging solutions to meet *ALL* charging needs.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976367#Comment_120976367

I'm in Dublin, but come from Banbridge originally so make regularly journeys on the M1 and further up to Belfast.

innrain

We own/drive 3 EVs starting from April of 2019 no home charging. The 2019 one is on 70k km, the 2021 one on 45k km and the 2023 one on 12k km. On average over 30k km a year, lockdown included. I haven't used an ESB DC charger since 2021. I have Ionity with 35c/kWh and Tesla with 40ish. Otherwise AC charging, some at work some at convenience locations. Before EVs I used to get a fill of petrol at every 5 days, 70ish each time. Last month my whole fuel bill was 70 due to some free charging.

Currently driving a rental petrol Qashqai in Spain and my average consumption is just shy of 10l/100km which is nowhere near the advertised 5.2 figure advertised. So my petrol bill would be much higher than equivalent electric.

Regarding the Taycan charging for long at a DC charging most likely someone with no DC charging experience who believes it needs to charge to 100% all the time.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976166#Comment_120976166

It is true to say that south Dublin has a vast amount of fast chargers, it isn't true, however, to say that most of the small town homes in our country have driveways. In fact the opposite, apartments and terraced houses is much more the norm.

In any case a saving of €1.25 (or 1/4 of the monthly sub) per 100km driven is hardly a case to say EVs are cheaper considering the added hassle

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976585#Comment_120976585

How did you get 35c on ionity? That's really good and blows my earlier figures out of the water!

Although you should accept that it is only useful if you live near such chargers

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976201#Comment_120976201

On the contrary - the perception and/or reality that EV technology is only for those who have a driveway is a huge barrier to EV adoption.

It's better all round for EV adoption if people can use any public charger as often as they need it.

Rather then objecting to someone with no home charging using their local *PUBLIC* rapid charger.

Obviously ALL drivers should use the network in a courteous way - ie avoid excessively hogging of chargers.

But to me hogging is when someone puts a car on a rapid for two hours and takes off into town.

Someone doing two x 30 min charges a week on a charger is not hogging it.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976670#Comment_120976670

There's a road in Dublin and it has 4 or 5 ubitricity chargers built into existing lampposts. If we got that on every lamppost on every street in the country then owning an EV without a driveway would be much more attractive. That's what we mean when we say the infrastructure isn't there

Old diesel

Still struggling with Down by the Gardens logic

"Hey you Mr EV driver - you shouldn't use the charger"

Why not - its sitting there unused right now.

"Mary from Dingle might need it if she's coming to Dublin"

Is Mary actually coming to Dublin today..

"That's not the point - you don't have a home charger but Mary does.

Mary hasn't the time to wait 4 hours for you to finish charging"

4 hours????? FFS - I will be here 30 mins and that's enough for 5 days driving for me.

Meanwhile we don't even know if Mary is in Dublin or even if she was in Dublin - would she even use *this* specific charger.

"But you shouldn't hog the charger"

Using the charger for 30 mins isn't hogging it.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976601#Comment_120976601

Personally I believe that when one thing costs less than the other it's 100% correct to say it's cheaper. It's just maths.

The statistics published by the CSO do show that their is a higher percentage of apartments and terraced house in our cities. In Dublin it's 62%, Cork 50%, Limerick 46%, whereas 80% of housing in Waterford County is Semi Detached or Detached homes which are more likely to have driveways. Roscommon being the lowest with 95% of homes being detached or semi's. When you look at absolute numbers it becomes immediately clear whilst public charging provision is focused on areas where it is.

eCars recent focus on DC at Supermarkets is a good way to serve locations with low amounts of off street parking, but I think it's going to be long time before theirs enough people using it in the like of Dungarven to justify that style of charging.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976744#Comment_120976744

Poster I was replying to was suggesting that people using 100 percent public charging is bad for EV adoption.

I'd like to see evidence that widespread issues with network getting clogged is due to people with no home charging using the network.

(There will obviously be issues with *some* people - with a driveway or with no driveway hogging a charger for excessively long sessions)

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120975930#Comment_120975930

Well why are you making comparisons between using fossil fuel and only public charging?

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976853#Comment_120976853

He's giving an illustration of how public charging at ESB eCars is expensive

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976861#Comment_120976861

i wouldn’t drive an EV without a home charger.

the joys to waking up to a charger , pre conditioned car is one of the main benefits.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976771#Comment_120976771

Theres a charger on the main street n my town. Nearest one for a good few kms. There are two slots on it. If someone needed a few kwh they can get on it. Except that one neighbor who doesnt have a driveway has his car parked at it every day from 5pm until midnight and sometimes ive even seen it there in the mornings. So now between the hours of 5pm until after midnight the town has one public charge slot.

People without home charging are using the network for 100% of the time they are charging. People with home charging are occupying the network for only a few percent of the time they are charging. Grand if there are enough chargers around the place. Not so good when there arent. and there arent.

So when you explode this to the whole country you get a situation where the to keep the numbers on the chargers down the providers are perfectly justified in raising the price at them. Noone will argue with them. Price goes up, less chargers needed for the same amount of profit. Eventually new EV drivers pay more than for petrol. There is no downward pressure on prices and not likely to be. Its just bad for everyone. Pretty sure we will be over a euro per kwh by the end of the year for public charging.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976974#Comment_120976974

If he's connected into the AC side of that charger then he's entitled to be there all day, unfortunately! If it's DC then he has no excuse.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976304#Comment_120976304

Lots of assumptions there, pretty useless post tbh. What consumption rate are you assuming for the Tesla, or is that a state secret? Electricity can be bought for a tenth of that price on smart EV plans, Flogas 9 hour night rate is less than a third of that rate @14.75c, petrol is rising by the hour here it's well over the 1.70 per litre now with no sign of it slowing. I ordered 500 litres of heating oil on Friday for 539, it was delivered earlier it's 560 now according to the driver.

kanuseeme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977182#Comment_120977182

Thats from tesla, the hint was "according to tesla".

I closed the tesla site down, not going to bother looking but from memory I think around 14kwh per 100km.

The rate is comparable to ecars sub plan. ( its cheaper by a few cents)

To make things easier for you,

If no home charging on night rate. (hope your following) You use ecars,

You only save 200 euro, compared to a petrol car ( consumption figures are given.)

I personally do not think its worth arsing around at chargers for 200 euro,( thats my assumption.)

I got petrol today and its the reverse of what your saying. ( that is it went down).

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976853#Comment_120976853

Because that's what I was responding to

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976851#Comment_120976851

I'd like to see evidence that widespread issues with network getting clogged is due to people with no home charging using the network.

I doubt that particular issue is a widespread one but when public charge points are 100% full it doesn't look good. However, if we had a situation in a small town where the 2 X 22kW units (there are many small town examples of this) were replaced by 6 X 7.1kW (or even 12 X 3.6kW) units and they had an 80-90% occupancy overnight by nearby apartment dwellers it would look pretty good for EV adoption, especially if more chargepoints came on stream as the number of EVs increased! You'd still have the cost issue but it would be a step in the right direction

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976998#Comment_120976998

It sounds like it's a dual-AC 22kW charger