ESB eCars

the_amazing_raisin

So I'd recommend that people watch maybe the last 15 mins or so on the video I posted in the Random EV thoughts thread yesterday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057993444/random-ev-thoughts

While the subject matter is focused on the US, I think it's fair to say that some of the statements are true here as well

One thing I think is true is that charging networks aren't really competing with one another at the moment

At least until recently, with more players joining the game that's finally changing

All the providers have congregated around a fairly similar price point, most of them offer similar numbers of chargers onsite (four) and similar max power supply (150-200kW)

Until recently card payments were nonexistent and if you want the privilege of some shelter from rain while plugging in then you need to drive to Belfast currently

To be fair, some of that makes sense.

Up to 4 chargers are exempt from planning so it's an easy installation.

Most cars at the moment max out below 200kW so not much incentive to install anything bigger

And maybe the reason DC charging is so expensive at the moment is because that's how much it costs when the cost of the chargers, installation, grid connection and some modest profit is taken into account

One might be tempted to say that if that's the case then we should be mass deploying AC chargers to make low cost charging accessible 😉

Anyway, I'm hoping that in the near future as chargers become more ubiquitous that providers are forced to compete more.

Maybe not on price but perhaps they can provide an improved experience, like charger layouts that aren't sh!t, or a shelter from the rain. Or maybe even someone onsite who can start the charger when the app isn't working, and maybe even take an actual cash money payment for the electricity

joe1303l

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976154#Comment_120976154

Overstay fee on DC chargers needs to be increased massively to prevent this nonsense.

zg3409

Easygo have said public AC chargers are not financially viable and each pillar needs it's own esb meter and associated standing charge. Cables between AC public chargers cannot be installed except by esb networks, they have a monopoly on public places, so this prevents rows of AC chargers on public streets. Dublin councils seem against rolling out any new AC public chargers. This is probably simply due to cost. They seem to hope public DC charging hubs they have not paid for will be the solution. This won't help adoption as I estimate there is only 1/4 the number of DC chargers to meet present peak demand and far less AC chargers. We probably need to quadruple DC charging this year and plan for 10 times for the coming years. Commercial providers only want a few busy chargers not a glut.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977885#Comment_120977885

Well I hope that our new office of electric vehicles, whatever it's called, identifies the requirements regarding ESB metering as a serious gap in EV adoption

I agree that if every charging column requires it's own meter then it's going to be very difficult for them to make financial sense

Funnily enough, DCCs analysis of the public charging network a few years ago found the same thing. But instead of making a recommendation that the rules be updated, they just played along

If you could have multiple columns tied to a single meter then you could have 7 chargers in a single 50kW grid connection. More if you did some clever load sharing

They'd probably make some easy financial sense then

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977885#Comment_120977885

i don’t believe each pillar needs its own meter. If they wanted to install several in a row on private land , then one meter wilL do

even on public land I’m sure there’s work arounds like cable trays along walls in car parks. or using modules units which consist of say 10 AC chargers

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120978871#Comment_120978871

See I question it's truth because traffic lights and lamp posts would both have power cables going underground from a single ESB connection, and they aren't installed by ESBN

So there's obviously some classification of equipment that allows multiple stations to be connected by underground power cables across public land to a single grid connection. If EV chargers were added to that list then it would probably make public AC much more viable

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979000#Comment_120979000

There’s an exemption for lower power devices like street lighting.

edit: section 6, page 52

https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/national-code-of-practice76cf7c6b-4890-4c39-87fc-a2d6692ef2d3.pdf

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979006#Comment_120979006

Interesting observation, on page 123 there's the section related to on street EV charging

So it's easy to see that the typical installation would be a single charging point per meter, but it doesn't exactly exclude multiple chargers either. The charger and meter don't need to be colocated in the same cabinet and there isn't a limit of the number of chargers per meter connection (except for the maximum of 16kVA per phase, so 48kVA total)

Hopefully the regulation gets updated to explicitly allow multiple chargers per the same grid connection

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977884#Comment_120977884

Yes, a euro per minute after 45 minutes would be a good solution, that way as well somebody who stayed for 46 minutes (which can happen by accident to be fair) gets stung less than the 90 minute hogger... Of course, another solution is to roll out multiple chargers instead of having just 1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977885#Comment_120977885

Easygo have said public AC chargers are not financially viable

I'd question the truth behind this, if public AC chargers are not viable then why are they cheaper to use than public DC chargers. Easygo being one of our nation's more expensive operators would make me question their intentions and motives

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120980973#Comment_120980973

I'd question the truth behind this, if public AC chargers are not viable then why are they cheaper to use than public DC chargers. Easygo being one of our nation's more expensive operators would make me question their intentions and motives

I'd hazard a guess that this is right as it's all down to a partially faulty business model and a still immature product in some ways.

If you're trying to sell AC chargers to a location which has high turnaround and your target audience only wants to spend 1 to 2 hours at the location (such as shops and restaurants) and you're limited to business-hours operations only, then that's a fail for the most part. Ubitricity have worked that out and now offer overnight sessions and this probably works out well for them where the are residences with no driveways. We'll probably see that model take off in many locations where there are unused overnight chargers.

25kW DC might be a better offering for some of those locations - at least then you're offering a reasonable top-up rate, but you also have higher overheads and you need to keep the customer rotating out of the fewer charging spots to maximise the ROI, hence you need a carrot or a stick to keep the customers 'working to the model'.

AC chargers though work out really well for customers at hotels, naturally enough, but the problem there is scaling the systems up to ensure that even the shortest overnight customer will have a charged EV in the morning. That's where I feel the technology is lacking as these charging systems don't scale-out like we need them too or don't allow for the assumption that some customers are going to be lazy-a**holes. That's where we should push it onto the charging provider to innovate and bring products to the market which suit the needs of the industry as well as the consumer.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977283#Comment_120977283

Petrol is not going down that's a lie, simple as that, all fuels are steadily rising day after day. Local Maxol went from 169.9 to 173.9 over the weekend a nearby Campus is charging 179.9🫣As I said earlier, there's no point (from an economic pov) in buying an EV if you can't charge at home. Paying public charging rates makes absolutely zero sense. People need to do their research before buying an EV, the savings over petrol or diesel can be significant but only by home charging at a decent unit rate or dedicated EV smart meter plan.

the_amazing_raisin

I suspect the difficulty of AC chargers is around the number of kWh sold between AC and DC

A DC charger could sell 50kWh in an hour, whereas an AC can at most sell 22kWh and more likely will sell 7-11kWh

So unless you get all Zoes or Ariyas on your AC chargers and a bunch of rapid gating Leafs on a DC charger, the DC will probably sell more kWh

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120981909#Comment_120981909

Diesel would be the cheaper combustion fuel, the average diesel does 5-6L/100km. Let's say 5.5 for arguments sake, while the average EV does 17kWh/100km... This would suggest that as long as 17kWh of electricity costs the same as 5.5L of diesel you have cost parity. So dividing one by the other is a factor of 3.1. Meaning the ESB rate of 51c/kWh to translates to €1.53per liter of diesel... To go the other end of the scale 68.2c/kWh translates to €2.11/L and applegreens 75c/kWh translates to €2.32/L. Conversely I have a night rate of 26c so works out to be just shy of 81c/L so having the ability to charge at home is clearly much cheaper and easier

Rather than telling people not to go EV if they don't have a driveway (which I agree with to an extent) show them these figures and let them make their own mind up perhaps?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120981972#Comment_120981972

Yes but I suspect that AC units are much much cheaper to install, a 50kW DC unit would use roughly the same as the 2X22kW units we see almost everywhere

By your logic they should all be converted to 50kW DC units as a cost measure. And it's not something I'd be against to be fair and maybe having a bank of 6 or 7 7kW AC units would make more sense than the dual 22kW units as most cars only pull 7kW on AC

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120982726#Comment_120982726

Very good way of putting it. People need to be told these figures before making the decision, the amount of people I've met who don't even know how much they're paying per unit is scary, and they're considering buying an EV 🫣

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120982808#Comment_120982808

Yeah but as we've discussed previously that's not exactly doable on public land given the current ESBN rule that each charger must have its own meter

I don't think that's the correct interpretation of the rules, or that it makes sense, but I'm not in a position to control how chargers are installed

I actually agree with you that we need banks of lower power AC chargers than the 22kW ones

It may not be the best business case, but it encourages overnight charging which is much better for the grid and generally much less carbon intensive than DC charging

This is why I think the government, county councils and ESBN should be working to unblock on street charging and going for mass installation

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120983027#Comment_120983027

What's the problem with each unit having its own meter? Surely that would be needed to accurately know what the users in question are drawing anyway, would it not?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985190#Comment_120985190

Additional standing charges. Additional installation costs, lose out on bulk discounts, etc

the unit themselves will record usage. And work with the operators billing system

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985335#Comment_120985335

Yeah fair enough, the charging is costly enough without having more expense to pass on to consumers

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120985190#Comment_120985190

Part of the problem I believe is the cable between each charger on a street needs to be installed by esb networks. They could put one meter at the start of the street but they would also need to wire all the street at high cost to the provider. Basically it looks like esb networks has a monopoly on cabling on public streets. They probably contract out the actual work, but they are the only ones allowed. Delays and costs could be crazy. In terms of AC costs, the units are cheaper but the upkeep and support and standing charges versus the actual income may not make sense in all but the busiest sites. Easygo have a lot of on street AC chargers in Ennis, but no where else.

Genghis

Good article here in the Irish Times. Touches on a few items from recent posts in this forum, e.g. neighbourhood solutions, building out the network, high speed hubs, etc.

Its paywalled but this is what head of eCars John Byrne says about pricing. Seems pricing might fall 'in the autumn'

https://www.irishtimes.com/motors/2023/08/16/ev-charging-prices-to-fall-in-near-future-says-esb/

John Byrne, head of e-cars at ESB, told The Irish Times that: “We purchase our electricity in blocks, so as the wholesale price has come down, and as we roll over our contracts and buy our next blocks of energy, then we hope to avail of those lower wholesale costs and pass those savings on to consumers. We always try to keep a good delta of pricing between us and petrol and diesel, because we know that cost helps to drive more people into electric motoring. The price of petrol and diesel has remained fairly constant, so the price of electricity will have to drop, and I’m hopeful that we’re going to be able to pass on those reductions in the near future.”

cannco253

…Byrne defends Ireland’s position when it comes to the charging rollout, saying: “It’s actually an aggressive rollout, but these things take time. We’ve built 29 new locations with high-speed charging under the Climate Action Fund, and we’re going to build 27 more. The good news is that the majority of those, 16 of them, will be high-powered charging hubs, like the one at Barack Obama Plaza. It takes time to ramp up to this sort of level of capability.”

Does anyone know where are the next 27 will be located ?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120987932#Comment_120987932

Yeah they'll cut their prices when it suits them to do so. Don't expect it anytime soon

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989916#Comment_120989916

They're still under same forward purchasing contract, they won't cut the prices they charge customers until they cut the costs they're paying their supplier. I wouldn't be surprised if the costs drop in November and it turns they've been hedging for 12 months at a time.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990018#Comment_120990018

Last year their prices went up twice (or was it 3 times?) in the space of 12 months, which would suggest 6 months hedging at best. Household suppliers raised prices 3 times on average last year and have yet to drop prices this year so they're unlikely to be in 12 month hedges either and simply benefiting from higher profits at our expense

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120989916#Comment_120989916

They’ll cut it when they don’t make a loss by doing so.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990210#Comment_120990210

I can only go on what's being reported, news articles are saying that supply companies have hedged badly and so we're stuck with high retail prices compared to the wholesale prices. I'm sure they'll be some interesting studies written on the '22/'23 electricity market failure. I'm expecting rates to start dropping across the domestic market late Autumn, I don't think it's blatant profiteering by retail arms as this would quickly be exposed when company results are published.

I can't see a situation where eCars prices for consumers are reduced before Electric Ireland's prices for retail are reduced. It's all likely part of the same forward purchase.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990332#Comment_120990332

And cut their profits? No chance!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990479#Comment_120990479

Yeah I hear all the excuses too but it doesn't really add up that every single provider in the country made a wrong call on hedging at the exact same time, if indeed hedging is even a thing...

I think in a few years it will be exposed in a similar manner to the the Esat Digifone controversy, the tracker mortgage scandal or the Ryan Tubridy debacle, by which point it will be too late sadly

liamog

Hedging and forward purchase contracts are a standard part of the electricity market, just like there is separation between generation and supply companies. Just because you don't understand the electricity market doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

One thing the last 12 months has really shown is that the common person has no clue how complex regulated markets work.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120990676#Comment_120990676

Their profits will remain the same. No need to cut them if the price they are paying drops , say they make 10c/kwh

at the moment it costs 55c , if next month it costs 35c, they can drop by 20c and maintain the same profit.

but to be honest the revenue from eCars isn’t much to ESB so they aren’t to worried about a cut.