ESB eCars

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

Cue someone with a large battery car capable of charging at 100kW+ rocks up, to see only the 50kW unit available, as a car incapable of taking more than 50kW, has chosen the newer, shinier charger.

It's progress though, I suppose.

That can be easily fixed. Charge €0.33 per kWh plus €0.33 per minute for the fast new one.

McGiver

ELM327 wrote:

Yeah. no. That car is staying where it is till I'm done. You can add all the emboldening you wish but it doesn't alter the fact that, in order to drive change, you don't expect the end user behavior to change. You change the system. In this instance, add more ac charging.

No worries, you'll pay for it if you stay there too long

Oh yeah we need more AC that we all agree on. But all evidence suggests that places abroad which already have way more AC than Ireland are generally penalising for too long AC usage after several hours. It's going to happen here too once there are more EVs on the road.

I'm pretty sure per minute charges (if not an outright overstay fee) for AC will come rather pronto to Ireland.

McGiver

unkel wrote:

I've said it for years, we need DC chargers at supermarkets and shopping centres where you stay for half an hour or a couple hours at most

Yes some Lidl shops on the continent have triple head AC DC chargers. I was really surprised. And that's in let's say less developed markets, I don't even talk NL, SE or NO. Why the didn't do it in Ireland I have no clue...

unkel wrote:

AC chargers are destination chargers where you should be allowed to park for the day (for taking public transport into work) or overnight (on street chargers for people with no home charging)

The evidence from other markets suggests that that's not the case. In Europe ACs are generally not unlimited stay, penalties are in place as I said, Paris, London, Prague, Berlin etc. One reason is that it's a commercial service, another is efficient usage of the resource, but money first. You can make the calculations, it's pretty simple if you have 2x22 kW AC and sell the service you want optimally 2 cars taking 22 kW/h and no down time when no one is charging. Worst case for you as the provider is if someone takes 7 kW/h and then stays there with full battery drawing nothing. That's where per minute fees after few hours come into play to let's say alter the user behaviour

McGiver

unkel wrote:

That can be easily fixed. Charge €0.33 per kWh plus €0.33 per minute for the fast new one.

Would world. Or charge more for the UFC than for the FC/RC/DC. Jaysus how do we call them ultrafast DC chargers now?

innrain

We can use for the moment ESB terms as they are providing all three levels

Standard Charge Points have a power output greater than 0 kW and up to 22 kW

Fast Charge Points have a power output greater than 22 kW and up to 50 kW

High Power Charge Points have a power output greater than 50 kW

ELM327

McGiver wrote: »

No worries, you'll pay for it if you stay there too long

Oh yeah we need more AC that we all agree on. But all evidence suggests that places abroad which already have way more AC than Ireland are generally penalising for too long AC usage after several hours. It's going to happen here too once there are more EVs on the road.

I'm pretty sure per minute charges (if not an outright overstay fee) for AC will come rather pronto to Ireland.

It's a difficult one, you'd have to account for charging finishing at 3am, or at a train station, bus depot etc.

Kramer wrote: »

Cue someone with a large battery car capable of charging at 100kW+ rocks up, to see only the 50kW unit available, as a car incapable of taking more than 50kW, has chosen the newer, shinier charger.

It's progress though, I suppose.

That should be fixed with pricing.

ELM327

innrain wrote: »

We can use for the moment ESB terms as they are providing all three levels

Standard Charge Points have a power output greater than 0 kW and up to 22 kW

Fast Charge Points have a power output greater than 22 kW and up to 50 kW

High Power Charge Points have a power output greater than 50 kW

Yes, that's the standard (pardon the pun) verbiage in most places. Outside of the UK which, like most other things, has their own f00ked way of describing them. (Fast -> rapid -> HPC)

Royale with Cheese

Are they only going to put those new rapid chargers in as one offs? That's not really going to cut it, there's not much benefit in a faster charger if you need to queue for it. With the likes of the ID3 hitting the roads here soon the demand for public charging is only going to increase. Do they allow for two cars to charge at 75kw each simultaneously?

ELM327

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Are they only going to put those new rapid chargers in as one offs? That's not really going to cut it, there's not much benefit in a faster charger if you need to queue for it. With the likes of the ID3 hitting the roads here soon the demand for public charging is only going to increase. Do they allow for two cars to charge at 75kw each simultaneously?

Apparently at the Kildare site there will be 1 * 50kW charger (same as before) and 1 * 150kW charger which can charge either 1 car at 150kW peak or 2 cars at 75kW each peak.

AndyBoBandy

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Are they only going to put those new rapid chargers in as one offs? That's not really going to cut it, there's not much benefit in a faster charger if you need to queue for it. With the likes of the ID3 hitting the roads here soon the demand for public charging is only going to increase. Do they allow for two cars to charge at 75kw each simultaneously?

Looks like in Kilcullen they are replacing one of the 2 50kW units with a 150kW unit. You'd think the better move would be to add it in as a 3rd unit so you have 2x 50kW's & a 150kW unit.

Kilcullen would be a primary charge stop on the Waterford-Dublin route, so 3 would be better than 2 DC chargers.

I wonder what happens with the 50kW unit they remove? is it scrapped or redeployed elsewhere?

ELM327

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Looks like in Kilcullen they are replacing one of the 2 50kW units with a 150kW unit. You'd think the better move would be to add it in as a 3rd unit so you have 2x 50kW's & a 150kW unit.

Kilcullen would be a primary charge stop on the Waterford-Dublin route, so 3 would be better than 2 DC chargers.

I wonder what happens with the 50kW unit they remove? is it scrapped or redeployed elsewhere?

They are relatively new, so I suppose it will be used for the AC to DC upgrades.

Black_Knight

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Looks like in Kilcullen they are replacing one of the 2 50kW units with a 150kW unit. You'd think the better move would be to add it in as a 3rd unit so you have 2x 50kW's & a 150kW unit.

Kilcullen would be a primary charge stop on the Waterford-Dublin route, so 3 would be better than 2 DC chargers.

I wonder what happens with the 50kW unit they remove? is it scrapped or redeployed elsewhere?

I'd assume redeployed since they're also upgrading some 22kW charge points.

In terms of adding a 3rd unit to the kilcullen, is it perhaps because the power supply to the site isn't sufficient to properly service 3 charge points? Even with 2 charge points, they're load balancing to 75kW/75kW. I assume a 3rd unit would load balance to 50kW/50kW/50kW.

AndyBoBandy

ELM327 wrote: »

They are relatively new, so I suppose it will be used for the AC to DC upgrades.

So overall the net gain in new chargers is relatively low/nothing.

They should be putting the replaced 50kW units into new sites first, and then when the country is saturated with chargers... then start upgrading the AC's to DC's (and then with the AC's that are replaced, if they are the newer units and are still serviceable, should also be redeployed to new locations).

ELM327

Power shouldnt be an issue there, it's a really new MSA.
In saying that, there was a diesel generator powering it at the start!

ELM327

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

So overall the net gain in new chargers is relatively low/nothing.

They should be putting the replaced 50kW units into new sites first, and then when the country is saturated with chargers... then start upgrading the AC's to DC's (and then with the AC's that are replaced, if they are the newer units and are still serviceable, should also be redeployed to new locations.

Yes but this is the ESB, so they will not do things logically!

AndyBoBandy

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes but this is the ESB, so they will not do things logically!

Its a pity, as if they had a surplus of AC units that were replaced by DC units, they could install them in train stations and throttle them to 7kW (and also allow all day/night charging on them).

Having 2 AC's in a train station/airport/park n ride carpark is great, but having 4, 6 or 8 would be better, and also, it'll all be revenue soon enough for them..

Black_Knight

So long as they don't redeploy the original AC units they had/have, with the sliding charge point. Those things were terrible.

unkel

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Are they only going to put those new rapid chargers in as one offs? That's not really going to cut it, there's not much benefit in a faster charger if you need to queue for it. With the likes of the ID3 hitting the roads here soon the demand for public charging is only going to increase.

You're hitting the nail on the head.

And this is exactly what happened in early 2018. Up till then the (free!) public fast charging system had been poor, but adequate as there weren't too many EVs around, and their owners were largely aware of charging etiquette. Bit of a community spirit. People would talk at charging points and if someone needed a charge, someone else in less of a need / less of a hurry would disconnect and let the other charge, etc.

Then the new Leaf came out and was bought in the hundreds. A lot of their owners were not aware of this charging etiquette and hooked their cars up to the few fast chargers and disappeared for hours on end while their cars were very slowly charging (most EVs before then would be mostly charged in 30 minutes, but the Leaf could take 2 hours). Combine that with the fact that all of the ESB chargers could only DC fast charge one car at a time (!!!) and you can see why the network was instantly blocked beyond use (in the Dublin area anyway)

We need fast charging hubs, where multiple cars can charge at the same time and not that mickey mouse game of musical chairs that the ESB is playing at the moment :rolleyes:

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

You're hitting the nail on the head.

And this is exactly what happened in early 2018. Up till then the (free!) public fast charging system had been poor, but adequate as there weren't too many EVs around, and their owners were largely aware of charging etiquette. Bit of a community spirit. People would talk at charging points and if someone needed a charge, someone else in less of a need / less of a hurry would disconnect and let the other charge, etc.

Then the new Leaf came out and was bought in the hundreds. A lot of their owners were not aware of this charging etiquette and hooked their cars up to the few fast chargers and disappeared for hours on end while their cars were very slowly charging (most EVs before then would be mostly charged in 30 minutes, but the Leaf could take 2 hours). Combine that with the fact that all of the ESB chargers could only DC fast charge one car at a time (!!!) and you can see why the network was instantly blocked beyond use (in the Dublin area anyway)

We need fast charging hubs, where multiple cars can charge at the same time and not that mickey mouse game of musical chairs that the ESB is playing at the moment :rolleyes:

Agree. It was very different driving my leaf in 2016 to driving in 2018. Very different cohort of owners.

unkel

We got some relief last year when they finally brought in charging for charging, and this gap in demand (until of course the number of EVs on the road will get another big boost next year) should have been used straight away to get more infrastructure in place. But no, there is pretty much no sign of that at all? How long have we been promised those super hubs? How long ago was our tax money ring fenced for that? It seems years at this stage. With not a single hub implemented.

And don't give me the bull that the ground works can not be done, the supply can not be connected from the grid or they can't get suitable locations. All bull. The ESB had no problems doing all this ground work and grid supply for the Ionity and Tesla super hubs where 6 to 8 cars can super fast charge at the same time and these companies had no problem finding suitable locations and getting planning permission in reasonable time.

liamog

unkel wrote: »

We got some relief last year when they finally brought in charging for charging, and this gap in demand (until of course the number of EVs on the road will get another big boost next year) should have been used straight away to get more infrastructure in place. But no, there is pretty much no sign of that at all? How long have we been promised those super hubs? How long ago was our tax money ring fenced for that? It seems years at this stage. With not a single hub implemented.

Literally any progress with the planned roll out, comes with an unkel response, but what about the hubs.

Busman Paddy Lasty

In all fairness the Kilcullen services site is relatively new. Four spots allocated for EVs but only two 50kW units installed. That's just not good enough.

M1 Lusk services North and Southbound are getting busier to the point the second unit at each site is warranted. The plinths are there already. How long before the second unit at each site is installed.............. third and fourth units at Kilcullen also!

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

We got some relief last year when they finally brought in charging for charging, and this gap in demand (until of course the number of EVs on the road will get another big boost next year) should have been used straight away to get more infrastructure in place. But no, there is pretty much no sign of that at all? How long have we been promised those super hubs? How long ago was our tax money ring fenced for that? It seems years at this stage. With not a single hub implemented.

And don't give me the bull that the ground works can not be done, the supply can not be connected from the grid or they can't get suitable locations. All bull. The ESB had no problems doing all this ground work and grid supply for the Ionity and Tesla super hubs where 6 to 8 cars can super fast charge at the same time and these companies had no problem finding suitable locations and getting planning permission in reasonable time.

That's because Networks can bill Tesla, Ionity etc for the groundworks.
Esb Supply/ ecars are not as likely to pay the likely substantial groundwork cost.

unkel

liamog wrote: »

Literally any progress with the planned roll out, comes with an unkel response, but what about the hubs.

The hubs are the only progress. We don't need anything else, nothing else has priority. It should be the only thing the ESB should be doing right now.

And let me state this very clearly in case someone else gets my intentions wrong again on this: I personally can not charge at any of these fast charge hubs. I am not being selfish here. I am happy for my tax money to enable someone else to fast charge. My only intention here is progress for EVs in Ireland.

ELM327 wrote: »

That's because Networks can bill Tesla, Ionity etc for the groundworks.
Esb Supply/ ecars are not as likely to pay the likely substantial groundwork cost.

Did we not just give them 10 million for this? That's a lot of groundwork you can do for that for a handful of charging hubs

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

The hubs are the only progress. We don't need anything else, nothing else has priority. It should be the only thing the ESB should be doing right now.

And let me state this very clearly in case someone else gets my intentions wrong again on this: I personally can not charge at any of these fast charge hubs. I am not being selfish here. I am happy for my tax money to enable someone else to fast charge. My only intention here is progress for EVs in Ireland.



Did we not just give them 10 million for this? That's a lot of groundwork you can do for that for a handful of charging hubs

We did but they probably spent the 10 million on a couple of the 150kW units and some agent costs

KCross

unkel wrote: »

We got some relief last year when they finally brought in charging for charging, and this gap in demand (until of course the number of EVs on the road will get another big boost next year) should have been used straight away to get more infrastructure in place. But no, there is pretty much no sign of that at all? How long have we been promised those super hubs? How long ago was our tax money ring fenced for that? It seems years at this stage. With not a single hub implemented.

And don't give me the bull that the ground works can not be done, the supply can not be connected from the grid or they can't get suitable locations. All bull. The ESB had no problems doing all this ground work and grid supply for the Ionity and Tesla super hubs where 6 to 8 cars can super fast charge at the same time and these companies had no problem finding suitable locations and getting planning permission in reasonable time.

I agree with most of what you have said there but rather than fill every thread up with the exact same rant why dont you direct some of your energy directly at eCars and send them a few emails everytime you get upset about your taxpayers money... its likely to get a better reaction than telling us the same story every day.... we get it like... we know you are not happy with their progress.... we all agree on it.... do we need it repeated ad nauseam on here?

mp3guy

KCross wrote: »

I agree with most of what you have said there but rather than fill every thread up with the exact same rant why dont you direct some of your energy directly at eCars and send them a few emails everytime you get upset about your taxpayers money... its likely to get a better reaction than telling us the same story every day.... we get it like... we know you are not happy with their progress.... we all agree on it.... do we need it repeated ad nauseam on here?

I asked a similar question before, I'd love to see some correspondence with eCars on this.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

we know you are not happy with their progress.... we all agree on it

That's new to me. Most people in this forum seem to be happy with their progress. Only a handful of people who have called out the ESB on their lack of progress in no uncertain terms.

And I doubt sending the ESB a few messages on the likes of Twitter or FaceBook (that I don't really use) will make more of a difference than hammering it down on this forum.

And if I can be frank, the typical Irish attitude of "shure it'll be grand" is what's mostly in the way of progress in this country. It's not for nothing we are well behind other countries in Europe like Norway or the Netherlands.

ELM327

I'm sure "anna" will help you unkel

mp3guy

unkel wrote: »

That's new to me. Most people in this forum seem to be happy with their progress. Only a handful of people who have called out the ESB on their lack of progress in no uncertain terms.

And I doubt sending the ESB a few messages on the likes of Twitter or FaceBook (that I don't really use) will make more of a difference than hammering it down on this forum.

And if I can be frank, the typical Irish attitude of "shure it'll be grand" is what's mostly in the way of progress in this country. It's not for nothing we are well behind other countries in Europe like Norway or the Netherlands.

Social media is not how you get in touch with people making strategic planning decisions in the company, maybe try esbnetworks@esb.ie? Or even better, reach out to someone here? https://www.linkedin.com/company/esbnetworks/people/