ESB eCars

slave1

And who's to say other European countries got it right?

Forget about EV's for a second.

What is the purpose of a car park?
Somewhere for you to park your car, leave it and come back later, in many cases quite a while later if day shopping, exercise, work etc. That's my IMHO

Now, bring DC charger into the equation and eCars quote for DC charging
"we encourage you to complete your session within 45 minutes. After this time, an overstay fee of €4.60 will apply."

This is my point, there is IMHO a conflict with DC chargers in Car Parks given the purpose of a car park.

unkel

slave1 wrote: »

DC chargers in car parks just wrong wrong wrong, AC for car parks.

Not at all. Most visits to car parks are relatively short, half an hour, an hour, an hour and a half, maybe a bit more. Like at supermarkets and shopping centres. Perfect location for slow DC chargers (around the 50kW), particularly if private money pays for them. Like Lidl, Tesco, etc.

AC chargers are best suitable for places where people park for at least several hours on end like train stations, work parking, home driveway parking, etc.

slave1

Okay, let me expand my point so.
I'm talking about the paid council car parks and the like, not Lidl/Aldi/Shopping Centre car parks.
These are the car parks around where I live and charge where eCars have put in slow chargers, I've never seen a eCars charger in a private company car park e.g. Tesco/Dunnes/Shopping Centre, where as you point out (and I agree) the stays are much shorter

KCross

Its down to the money and available power.

Its significantly better to have 10x7kW AC charging than 1x50kW DC in a car park.

slave1

KCross wrote: »

Its down to the money and available power.

Its significantly better to have 10x7kW AC charging than 1x50kW DC in a car park.

I'm getting very argumentative today, must be the Friday feeling?

I disagree with mention of 7kW chargers, yes I totally accept that the vast majority of cars these days can take just ~7kW but we need to future proof and capture the 11/16/22 of today and surely into the future less and less 7kW and more and more 11/16/22.
Install for 2025 and not 2020, 22's please

kanuseeme

KCross wrote: »

Its down to the money and available power.

Its significantly better to have 10x7kW AC charging than 1x50kW DC in a car park.

Agreed but at the moment there is only 10 AC and 2 DC in the whole of Waterford city available to the public.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Its down to the money and available power.

Available power is not something set in stone that can never be changed. Available power everywhere in Ireland will need to be increased retrospectively in the next few decades. And when speccing new developments the available power should be many times what was the norm previously, catering for the move away from using fossil fuels (locally)

New buildings will be heated / cooled by electricity only. Vehicles will be powered by electricity only, etc.

No dig at you KCross, but a lot of people only seem to want to work with the circumstances we have now (the ESB included). We need to have some vision for the future here. Not focus on what is here today.

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

I'm getting very argumentative today, must be the Friday feeling?

I disagree with mention of 7kW chargers, yes I totally accept that the vast majority of cars these days can take just ~7kW but we need to future proof and capture the 11/16/22 of today and surely into the future less and less 7kW and more and more 11/16/22.
Install for 2025 and not 2020, 22's please

11kW is becoming almost standard at this stage so we should definitely cater for that.

But it is still down to the point I made, money and available power.... would you rather 10x7kW AC or 4x22kW AC in the car park you are visiting?

If you are going to a car park and you want/need to charge you need alot of points to be available. If you have a car park with 500 cars in it and only a handful of charge points there is a good chance you wont get one... so you have to compromise somewhere on money, charge speed or number of charge points.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Available power is not something set in stone that can never be changed. Available power everywhere in Ireland will need to be increased retrospectively in the next few decades. And when speccing new developments the available power should be many times what was the norm previously, catering for the move away from using fossil fuels (locally)

New buildings will be heated / cooled by electricity only. Vehicles will be powered by electricity only, etc.

No dig at you KCross, but a lot of people only seem to want to work with the circumstances we have now (the ESB included). We need to have some vision for the future here. Not focus on what is here today.

No argument there. But it still requires money.

Of course every car park in the country could request a power upgrade and install multiple 50kW DC chargers but what car park company can afford that level of investment... very few (probably none in this country).

Its a compromise based on reality.

unkel

Yeah it is more for new developments than for retrofitting. But take Decathlon in case. Brand new shop, they installed 10 * free AC chargers. Great for someone like me who can take in 23kW from them. But most EVs can take either 7kW or 11kW. And most Decathlon customers will be there for not much more than 1 hour. Which makes it pretty pointless to plug in.

Now if they had installed 50kW DC chargers, many EVs could get a significant charge (or even a full charge) in the hour that they are there. Although not great for me as I couldn't use them

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Yeah it is more for new developments than for retrofitting. But take Decathlon in case. Brand new shop, they installed 10 * free AC chargers. Great for someone like me who can take in 23kW from them. But most EVs can take either 7kW or 11kW. And most Decathlon customers will be there for not much more than 1 hour. Which makes it pretty pointless to plug in.

Now if they had installed 50kW DC chargers, many EVs could get a significant charge (or even a full charge) in the hour that they are there. Although not great for me as I couldn't use them

Decathlon is a good example.

So, lets say you are the manager of that and have been given a budget for "EV charging".

Making the numbers up here.... but lets say your AC points cost €5k each and a DC charge point costs €30k.... what do you do?

1 DC charge point or a bank of 5-10 AC charge points?

Business reality has to kick in here and if you do put in one DC charge point what are the chances that you as a customer will get to use it when you arrive? Very little chance.... it would be pure pot luck that it became available as you drive in. I was there myself only a week or so ago and 4/10 were being used. How would that have worked out if there was only 1 or 2 DC chargers?

The idea is to have LOTS of charge points in each location in the same way we have lots of petrol pumps at a petrol station.

liamog

Having lots of AC chargers, is like having lots of jerry can's in a car park instead of a fuel pump.

KCross

liamog wrote: »

Having lots of AC chargers, is like having lots of jerry can's in a car park instead of a fuel pump.

I dont agree. You can add a decent amount of range in 1-2hrs.

If your expectation is that you want an 80% charge when you visit Decathlon then you are obviously going to be disappointed but thats not the use case. The use case is to give a topup not fully charge your car.

What you guys are asking for is the ideal with no business reality attached to it.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

So, lets say you are the manager of that and have been given a budget for "EV charging".

If the budget would only allow for 1 DC charger, then the budget is too low. 10 AC chargers for €50k is false economy compared to installing 5 DC chargers for €150k

It's a horrible waste of time if people will have to connect to AC chargers every time just to gain a few kWh. If they didn't waste this time, they would have more time to be in the shop.

ABC (always be charging) is so 2010
Only charge if you can get at least 20kWh is more 2020

unkel

OC20™

Only charge if you can get at least 20kWh!

liamog

KCross wrote: »

I dont agree. You can add a decent amount of range in 1-2hrs.

If your expectation is that you want an 80% charge when you visit Decathlon then you are obviously going to be disappointed but thats not the use case. The use case is to give a topup not fully charge your car.

What you guys are asking for is the ideal with no business reality attached to it.

I don't see value in a top up of 70km (assuming 1 hour in Decathlon) and an 11kW on board charger. I do see value in Decathlon being the host site for a paid DC charger, than I can add 288km of range whilst doing whatever I intended to do in Decathlon anyway for 45 mins.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

Your opinion does not match the experience of other European countries, why do we need to be treated and act differently

I'd seen Lidls in Czechia with triple-head chargers... And that's a much smaller EV market in terms of % of car fleet.

McGiver

liamog wrote:

I don't see value in a top up of 70km (assuming 1 hour in Decathlon) and an 11kW on board charger. I do see value in Decathlon being the host site for a paid DC charger, than I can add 288km of range whilst doing whatever I intended to do in Decathlon anyway for 45 mins.

Yep, but DC is very expensive. You can get several dual 22 kW AC for that or even more 7/11 kW AC chargers. And you'll serve many more cars with the same power supply.

liamog

McGiver wrote: »

Yep, but DC is very expensive. You can get several dual 22 kW AC for that or even more 7/11 kW AC chargers. And you'll serve many more cars with the same power supply.

I'm being generous with spending 1 hour at Decathlon, it's more likely a location you spend 30 mins. Do you really see any utility in gaining 35km of range when you drive a 300km range vehicle? It's pure greenwashing, it doesn't matter that 8 cars have gained a useless charge in the same time.

Now, Decathlon do have the sporting facilities where people are likely to spend 90 mins to 2 hours, for them it makes sense to have some AC chargers.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

If the budget would only allow for 1 DC charger, then the budget is too low. 10 AC chargers for €50k is false economy compared to installing 5 DC chargers for €150k

Thats an idealistic viewpoint though. Business has to make money. They're not in the car fuel business so they have to have some constraint attached. The cost difference between AC and DC is significant both in terms of connection costs and actual equipment.

unkel wrote: »

It's a horrible waste of time if people will have to connect to AC chargers every time just to gain a few kWh. If they didn't waste this time, they would have more time to be in the shop.

I agree... for instance, a 7kW charge point at a Lidl is pointless. I know where you are coming from with that.

But we are, I think, talking about car parks where the car is likely to be there longer than a Lidl stop.

There isnt one right answer here. Its down to what the business can afford and what makes practical sense.

Its great to have the vision to say we want banks of 50kW chargers but how is that even remotely achievable for a small business?

liamog wrote: »

I'm being generous with spending 1 hour at Decathlon, it's more likely a location you spend 30 mins.

I spent alot longer than 1hr at Decathlon but each to their own.
If you are really only spending 30mins there are you going to arrive with 10% SoC and cross your fingers for access to one or two DC charge points.... I think not.

liamog wrote: »

I don't see value in a top up of 70km (assuming 1 hour in Decathlon) and an 11kW on board charger. I do see value in Decathlon being the host site for a paid DC charger, than I can add 288km of range whilst doing whatever I intended to do in Decathlon anyway for 45 mins.

That model works too if you can get someone like EasyGo to own it and they have scale and back office staff already to support it etc.

But you still have the issue of getting onto that one charger. What are the chances you will get onto it in that setting?


Just to focus the debate more on public car parks and/or multi-storeys.... mayeb the solution is that you have a bank of AC chargers for those that know they will be staying for 3hrs+ and then have someone like EasyGo to provide 1 or 2 paid DC chargers for those that want a larger topup because they will only be there for 30-45mins.

So, both AC and DC is required?


The thing really is that you cant have DC everywhere. There are commercial realities that need to be appreciated.

McGiver

Lads, I see it like this.

Motorway hubs - multiple UFC 150kW + DC 50 kW + some AC contingency
National roads - DC 50 kW + AC contingency
Isolated Supermarkets - DC 50 kW triple head
Malls, shopping centres, cinemas - many AC 11 kW (22 kW is a waste of output)
Long stay car parks - AC 11 kW or even AC 7kW to maximise number of ports for power given
On-street parking - AC 7kW, potentially less
Train stations, P&Rs, hotels - AC 3-7 kW, even 3-pin 10A would do

I actually don't see any scenario for 2x22 kW - almost no cars can take it so it's essentially wasting available power supply. I can't see the standard moving to AC 22 kW in all EVs ( I would love to!).

liamog

KCross wrote: »

Just to focus the debate more on public car parks and/or multi-storeys.... mayeb the solution is that you have a bank of AC chargers for those that know they will be staying for 3hrs+ and then have someone like EasyGo to provide 1 or 2 paid DC chargers for those that want a larger topup because they will only be there for 30-45mins.

So, both AC and DC is required?

That's probably the reality of it, if you think about the current provision of fuel stations we have a motorway services with many pumps. These are obviously replaced with many high speed DC chargers 150/350kW. Then you have the neighbourhood petrol stations, instead of upgrading these to DC chargers, it makes sense to place the DC chargers in local supermarket car parks, then you also have the shopping centres where some people will spend lots of time, so banks of AC chargers are useful, but some people might want to just go charge up whilst nipping into the shops, so a couple of DC chargers is also useful.

innrain

Looking on the ecars map there are another two poised for replacement: Clifden and Dundalk (Long Walk Shopping Centre). If they replace Clifden with the DCLite unit it is going to be a blow for Zoes driving in the west. I wonder where the 2 brand new units from M8&M6 which were replaced by the 150kW are going to go.

liamog

Clifden is probably the first one that really should of been a triple head, there isn't a sensible option for Zoe's nearby.

DrPhilG

kanuseeme wrote: »

Agreed but at the moment there is only 10 AC and 2 DC in the whole of Waterford city available to the public.

Spare a thought for Derry, twice the size of Waterford and currently 3 AC & 1 DC.

liamog

DrPhilG wrote: »

Spare a thought for Derry, twice the size of Waterford and currently 3 AC & 1 DC.

Hopefully Stormont pull their finger out, the North is in a desperate state.

slave1

McGiver wrote: »

...
I actually don't see any scenario for 2x22 kW - almost no cars can take it so it's essentially wasting available power supply. I can't see the standard moving to AC 22 kW in all EVs ( I would love to!).

Nice stab but Zoe's can take 22, some Tesla's are 16, certain older Tesla's are 22, e-Tron 22 I think, upcoming Nissan Ariya is 22 and who knows what's coming down the line that will go 3phase 22.
Future proof and maximize the on-board chargers of the EVs.

Remember a 22kW AC that's charging a Nissan Ariya could be freeing up an otherwise occupied DC charger.

Re power limitations, ESB need to wise up, as we move from ICE vehicles we all know right now more electricity will be required.

slave1

liamog wrote: »

Hopefully Stormont pull their finger out, the North is in a desperate state.

Lots don't want them to pull their finger out, while Stormont was not sitting all those years NI did not pass the legislation to allow charging for EVs, that's what it's all free up there for everyone and will remain so until Stormont pull their finger out!

Cyrus

slave1 wrote: »

Nice stab but Zoe's can take 22, some Tesla's are 16, certain older Tesla's are 22, e-Tron 22 I think, upcoming Nissan Ariya is 22 and who knows what's coming down the line that will go 3phase 22.
Future proof and maximize the on-board chargers of the EVs.

Remember a 22kW AC that's charging a Nissan Ariya could be freeing up an otherwise occupied DC charger.

Re power limitations, ESB need to wise up, as we move from ICE vehicles we all know right now more electricity will be required.

etron is 11 with an option (not yet available i believe) for 22kw.

Fast DC charging but not AC

DrPhilG

slave1 wrote: »

Lots don't want them to pull their finger out, while Stormont was not sitting all those years NI did not pass the legislation to allow charging for EVs, that's what it's all free up there for everyone and will remain so until Stormont pull their finger out!

They may be free, but the network is in tatters and only getting worse.