ESB eCars

Black_Knight

4 of the units in Cork city are in use! Maybe some just do rely on public units. It's great for those who need them, and hopefully less abuse and damage with the less use.

liamog

They'll probably be an initial adjustment period, the people who didn't get the news and needed the charge today.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

They'll probably be an initial adjustment period, the people who didn't get the news and needed the charge today.

https://youtu.be/hYTQ7__NNDI?t=9

slave1

Cyrus wrote: »

in reality this should be a good thing, the economic viability of their infastructure will now be easily reviewed and this should push them to install more income generating (i.e. fast chargers) units.

I'd like to agree but I think what eCars have done is create new living grounds for spiders, usage will fall away.
We are eliminating the incentives way too soon into the Adoption cycle.
Folk will stop using charge points en masse and the wrong signal will be received by eCars i.e. data suggests usage is fine and no need for any more charge points.

They should have priced AC similiar to domestic night rate to help maintain an incentive of sorts and encourage uptake.

Right now there is no way I would recommend an EV as a sole car in a household if any travel outside comfortable range is required.
Infrastructure simply not fit for purpose, not enough charge points, not in enough locations, not dependable and most importantly not engaging in a hub concept.

Time will tell

Black_Knight

slave1 wrote: »

Right now there is no way I would recommend an EV as a sole car in a household if any travel outside comfortable range is required.
Infrastructure simply not fit for purpose, not enough charge points, not in enough locations, not dependable and most importantly not engaging in a hub concept.

Time will tell

Can't agree with that. Our Ioniq has pretty much been the sole car for us this last year maybe (we have 2 cars, but why I don't know). Since fees on fast chargers it's meant they are more available when needed, and our main out of range trip would be passing ionity too. And now with fees for slow charging, the chances of being able to charge elsewhere around the country are greater. With any of the longer range cars (pretty much any other new EV) you'd have even less need for public charging.

The cost of the slow chargers is probably a bit high, and certainly doesn't help appartment dwellers/those without driveways, but that wouldn't stop me from being an EV only household. Once it's the right car for your driving, which has always been the case.

Royale with Cheese

Had to pay to charge this morning. I was using plugsurfing as they still had the ESB CCS chargers down as free but they've updated their pricing today too, no more freeloading for me.

AndyBoBandy

Meanwhile EasyGo are emailing it’s users asking to help them identify new locations for 50kW DC chargers.....

If only eCars had a similar approach...

innrain

Black_Knight wrote: »

https://www.plugshare.com/location/250409

St Candices Car park in Kilkenny has been removed from the ESB app after being marked for replacement.

The new DC unit appears operational on the app now. Nice

the_amazing_raisin

slave1 wrote: »

I'd like to agree but I think what eCars have done is create new living grounds for spiders, usage will fall away.
We are eliminating the incentives way too soon into the Adoption cycle.
Folk will stop using charge points en masse and the wrong signal will be received by eCars i.e. data suggests usage is fine and no need for any more charge points.

They should have priced AC similiar to domestic night rate to help maintain an incentive of sorts and encourage uptake.

Right now there is no way I would recommend an EV as a sole car in a household if any travel outside comfortable range is required.
Infrastructure simply not fit for purpose, not enough charge points, not in enough locations, not dependable and most importantly not engaging in a hub concept.

Time will tell

Well now that you can make money from charging maybe other companies will being moving in and give the eCars network some competition.

Truth be told I suspect the economics of public charging aren't great. I imagine it takes several years for a DC charger to just pay for itself and by then it's probably obsolete and in need of replacement

I'm guessing we're going to end up with more manufacturer driven charging networks like Tesla Supercharger or Ionity, since they're probably the only companies who will put up the starting capital in order to drive EV sales

Black_Knight

innrain wrote: »

The new DC unit appears operational on the app now. Nice

Nice one. I'll keep tabs on any more "marked for replacement" units. There's 4 at the moment.

Ashford gaa park
Shankill dart station, though I assume that's just a regular replacement, not a DC swap out.
Clifden, though it sounds like that unit is broken, so again, perhaps not a DC swap. Would be a nice location for one though, or even an AC and DC side by side.
And one in Armagh. Again, NI is getting little these days without fees so unlikely a DC upgrade.

TJJP

Laviski wrote: »

How is that better, their charge finished yesterday. If no overstay fee they would only pay consumption despite being there for a day.

Cheap city center car park space.

But it's not free is it?

Parking and Electric Vehicles
While charging an electric vehicle in a Pay and Display Space or EV Charging Space in a Pay and Display location, payment must be made for parking during hours of operation indicated.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-roads-and-traffic/parking-dublin

Laviski

TJJP wrote: »

But it's not free is it?

Parking and Electric Vehicles
While charging an electric vehicle in a Pay and Display Space or EV Charging Space in a Pay and Display location, payment must be made for parking during hours of operation indicated.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-roads-and-traffic/parking-dublin

other councils don't require to pay if charging, to encourage EV take up. I think Dublin is the only place that require to pay for both the electricity and parking.

slave1

You have to pay for parking in Westmeath

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Well now that you can make money from charging maybe other companies will being moving in and give the eCars network some competition.

Truth be told I suspect the economics of public charging aren't great. I imagine it takes several years for a DC charger to just pay for itself and by then it's probably obsolete and in need of replacement

I'm guessing we're going to end up with more manufacturer driven charging networks like Tesla Supercharger or Ionity, since they're probably the only companies who will put up the starting capital in order to drive EV sales

Correct. Fast charging - Carmakers, Big Oil, Energy Companies. These will drive the fast EV infrastructure. As seen elsewhere in Europe.

Can't see private operators being profitable apart from the best spots. I do think that private operators have more chances with AC chargers in the cities and tourist destinations though.

the_amazing_raisin

McGiver wrote: »

Can't see private operators being profitable apart from the best spots. I do think that private operators have more chances with AC chargers in the cities and tourist destinations though.

Yeah I could see it heading that way too, usually AC chargers are somewhat cheaper to install and better suited to unattended locations.


I'm hoping that 50kW DC chargers will get cheaper soon with the push for higher power charging in service stations. IMHO 50kW still makes sense in a lot of places with a short visit time, like supermarkets for example.


Personally I'd prefer to see 2 50kW DC chargers to 4 22kW AC chargers in a supermarket, as it means you'll get a decent charger in while doing the grocery shopping.


I suspect the Zoe owners will start laughing at me now with their 22kW on board chargers

Black_Knight

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Personally I'd prefer to see 2 50kW DC chargers to 4 22kW AC chargers in a supermarket, as it means you'll get a decent charger in while doing the grocery shopping.

Interestingly I seen on EasyGo there's a 25.2kW CCS/12.8kW CHAdeMO DC unit around little Island, marked as "Bam, Cork". I guess for the dunkettle interchange works, but an interesting power rating. Not sure what that unit is, or whether it's just a regular unit which is limited or something, but if it's a cheaper unit, it'd probably be more use in a supermarket than the 22kW ones which most cars can only pull 7kW.

Either way, it was interesting to spot it.

AndyBoBandy

Just down in Kilcullen now getting a quick top up from one of the last few free ESB chargers in the country......

obi604

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Just down in Kilcullen now getting a quick top up from one of the last few free ESB chargers in the country......

When will these start being charged for? Days or weeks

McGiver

cruisey1987 wrote:

Yeah I could see it heading that way too, usually AC chargers are somewhat cheaper to install and better suited to unattended locations.

Pretty sure installation costs are way lower. The AC charger itself is way cheaper. I'd in fact go 2x 11 kW as 22 kW is generally useless for almost all EVs. With 2x11 kW setup, you can make a lot of bang using 44 kW supply, that's 4 connectors and rather cheap. Equivalent power DC charger is several times more expensive + higher installation cost.

cruisey1987 wrote:

I'm hoping that 50kW DC chargers will get cheaper soon with the push for higher power charging in service stations. IMHO 50kW still makes sense in a lot of places with a short visit time, like supermarkets for example.

Unlikely, they're crazy expensive. Yes 50 kW DC makes sense for supermarkets but the problem is that you'll get only 1 connector for 50 kW of input. So you'd need 500 kW supply to power 10 connectors as opposed to 110 kW to the power 10x 11 kW AC connectors.

innrain

I believe that installation costs up to the charger are the same for a 2x22kW AC or 50 kW DC. For shops or private short stay car park owners 2x25kW DC makes more sense. Any car can charge full whack at 25kW DC so you always get max revenue. From AC in most cases you get one third and if you get a PHEV connected a sixth or less. Pricewise it's a factor of four but they are not that crazy. And prices are coming down fast.
Just for the sake of argument if one unit delivers 25kWh for 8 hours a day 300 days a year it is generating €15k @25c kWh in revenue, with a cost of €8k (vs €2k for AC) .
On the AC side you get people expencting it for free or cheaper 😏. Slow charging for 47 mins does not make more sense so you will not get the same usage And when they are in use the output is a third, at best a half of it's capacity (I know Zoes and few Teslas but they ar fewer than PHEVs). So reduced usage, reduced output, reduced price. A cube of reasons not to.

the_amazing_raisin

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Meanwhile EasyGo are emailing it’s users asking to help them identify new locations for 50kW DC chargers.....

If only eCars had a similar approach...

Here's an idea, give eCars employees company cars, but EVs only. See how they live with their own charging network


I always reckon it's a problem when charger locations are being decided by non EV drivers

the_amazing_raisin

innrain wrote: »

I believe that installation costs up to the charger are the same for a 2x22kW AC or 50 kW DC. For shops or private short stay car park owners 2x25kW DC makes more sense. Any car can charge full whack at 25kW DC so you always get max revenue. From AC in most cases you get one third and if you get a PHEV connected a sixth or less. Pricewise it's a factor of four but they are not that crazy. And prices are coming down fast.
Just for the sake of argument if one unit delivers 25kWh for 8 hours a day 300 days a year it is generating €15k @25c kWh in revenue, with a cost of €8k (vs €2k for AC) .
On the AC side you get people expencting it for free or cheaper 😏. Slow charging for 47 mins does not make more sense so you will not get the same usage And when they are in use the output is a third, at best a half of it's capacity (I know Zoes and few Teslas but they ar fewer than PHEVs). So reduced usage, reduced output, reduced price. A cube of reasons not to.

The charger itself costs quite a bit more AFAIK, several times the cost of an AC unit. But yes even if they had to load balance the chargers and they weren't supplying the full 50kW all the time it'd still be better than AC units that aren't being fully utilised.

MJohnston

innrain wrote: »

I believe that installation costs up to the charger are the same for a 2x22kW AC or 50 kW DC. For shops or private short stay car park owners 2x25kW DC makes more sense. Any car can charge full whack at 25kW DC so you always get max revenue. From AC in most cases you get one third and if you get a PHEV connected a sixth or less. Pricewise it's a factor of four but they are not that crazy. And prices are coming down fast.

You can't simply say "up to the charger" when the price differential is at least 4x (it can be up to 10x).

The retailer generally won't see any revenue from the charging, but they may have to put up some of the outlay for the hardware.

KCross

innrain wrote: »

I believe that installation costs up to the charger are the same for a 2x22kW AC or 50 kW DC. For shops or private short stay car park owners 2x25kW DC makes more sense. Any car can charge full whack at 25kW DC so you always get max revenue. From AC in most cases you get one third and if you get a PHEV connected a sixth or less. Pricewise it's a factor of four but they are not that crazy. And prices are coming down fast.
Just for the sake of argument if one unit delivers 25kWh for 8 hours a day 300 days a year it is generating €15k @25c kWh in revenue, with a cost of €8k (vs €2k for AC) .
On the AC side you get people expencting it for free or cheaper ��. Slow charging for 47 mins does not make more sense so you will not get the same usage And when they are in use the output is a third, at best a half of it's capacity (I know Zoes and few Teslas but they ar fewer than PHEVs). So reduced usage, reduced output, reduced price. A cube of reasons not to.

There is alot of sense built into your point.

It is a horses for courses thing though. As you said, if the dwell time of the car is measured in minutes (e.g. Lidl) then it makes sense to go with 2x25kW DC

But if the person is likely to be there for 1,2,3hrs you dont want your expensive DC charger tied up for that time period. It might make more sense to have 8x7kW AC (or 5x11kW AC) and serve more customers.

Also, having just two plugs makes it more likely that a user who needs it doesnt get onto it when they arrive.


It would be good to see some real world costs for installing AC and DC chargers in Ireland... connection costs, installation costs, running costs etc... most of the discussions on this thread revolve around peoples ideals with no business/profit elements attached.

innrain

MJohnston wrote: »

You can't simply say "up to the charger" when the price differential is at least 4x (it can be up to 10x).

The retailer generally won't see any revenue from the charging, but they may have to put up some of the outlay for the hardware.

I'm saying up to the chargers because that is the part I can't quantify. The charger bit I can. Assume I have to make a decision AC vs DC the ground work and wiring is the same up to the charger. It is unknown to me but being the same it cancels out. The only difference is given by the chargers costs which I have in front of me 8k DC vs 2k AC per outlet. That is why I said x4

Of course once we speak about long term stay then the balance tips towards the AC because you will have so much dead time with DC. The longer the average stay the lower the AC power per outlet I would think.


The retailer should get revenue and it will in the future. As right now the petrol stations are rebranded service stations and "we make more revenue by selling water than fuel" when the market share of EV's will be in tens % some retailers will realize the potential of charging on their premises.


I know we are not in the business, and we do not know costs and what not and we discuss sometimes very subjective. But by seeing a problem from different angles we learn new things.

In the meantime in the UK
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-public-ev-charging-provision-increases-fivefold-five-years

liamog

My understanding is that the site electrical works for installing a 44kW DC charger and a dual socketed 22kW AC charging point are identical, this is why eCars have been able to upgrade the 2x22kW AC to the DC Lite (my name, hoping it catches on) chargers.
So in this case, Tesco could of installed 2 DC Lite chargers in Liffey Valley, and it's only the charging equipment costs that would differ.
For a site such as Tesco LV, I'm of the firm opinion that 2 44kW DC chargers would provide a greater local benefit than 4 22kW AC chargers.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

it's only the charging equipment costs that would differ.

That "only" is doing an Atlas-worthy level of heavy lifting

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

That "only" is doing an Atlas-worthy level of heavy lifting

Given the persons question was how much is the difference in the site works excluding the charging equipment, it answers it fairly well.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

Given the persons question was how much is the difference in the site works excluding the charging equipment, it answers it fairly well.

You answered it then added your own opinion, to which I am replying with relevant quoting

liamog

They are both Circontrol units, the Circontrol Raption 50 CCS CHA T2S32 and the Circontrol eVolve Smart T.

Not sure what price eCars are getting them for, but according to this random site from Thailand, the DC charger is $87,000 versus $10,400.
That's roughly in line with the figures from the old RCN report that placed DC:AC chargers at a 10:1 ratio.