Harsh sentence

yourdeadwright

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry but, what?

Is this really where we are as a society?

My wife kissed me on the back of the head this morning when she came up behind me, sexual assault in your eyes no doubt.

#metoo

WOW !!! you cant be serious , a wife kissing you on the head is not in the same realm as a drunk entering your room while you sleep touching you and making the comment "let me touch your Clit " is not even close

bcklschaps

Sentence seems very harsh.

We are at the point in Ireland now, where as a man charged with any sexual crime you are going to get the book thrown at you. Your only defence is to plead guilty and hope for the most lenient sentence. It keeps everybody happy, Gaurds, Judges, politicians, feminists .... everybody except men of course. But sure who cares about them ? they had it good for long enough.

BBFAN wrote: »

A year is a harsh sentence?

Since ****ing when?

For those who say, a year isn't a harsh sentence, any recordrded criminal conviction never mind a custodial sentence and the bad publicity ...will basically preclude this guy from ever working in this country again. In fact the way things have gone, he's unlikely to be able to even live in this country again. All for what seems to have been a drunken fumble.

meeeeh

GreeBo wrote: »

Thats plain and obvious to most, but clearly not all.

There are different levels of sexual assault. Not everything is on par with rape but yeah touching you partners genitals in sexual way while they are asleep is assault.

I know you will find another silly example to dismiss any type of assault. If you are the type of a person who excuses every assault with but my wife kisses the back of my head you'll probably never get why touching someone's genitals when they are asleep is wrong.

blue note

I'm full of sympathy for the guy here. From about 20 years old to 28 I was often doing things in my sleep. If i was drinking they were more likely, but I didn't need to be drinking for an incident. I don't think people understand that you can do things while asleep and have no control of them.

Most commonly, I'd take off my underpants and go to sleep on the couch with my duvet. Relatively harmless, but if someone caught me walking down the corridor naked it could have been trouble for me.

The two that could really have gotten me in trouble were the time I stayed with a former college housemate and the sleepwalking in a hostel in lahinch. For the former, I got up during the night and got into her bed and slept there. I was in my underpants and her a thong. I didn't do anything, but it was a surprise for her to wake up to me there. I probably went to the bathroom and thought she was my girlfriend and got into bed with her.

In lahinch, I got up in the middle of the night and walked out of my room, outside (in November during a storm) and still didn't wake up. I woke during the night when the two guys whose room I wandered into wondered who the fcuk was in a bed in their room. They woke me and after I came to I legged it out of the room and wandered the halls in my boxers until i found my room. If I had wandered into a room with two girls in it, I could conceivably have been in real trouble and been a discussion on boards here.

I also occasionally would try to have sex with my girlfriend when asleep. I don't think it was ever any more than her waking to me humping her leg and saying something crude (which would be completely out of character for me). I don't know how it never resulted in sex.

I once gave her a box in the nose while asleep too. I woke up to her hitting me and swearing at me and me not having a clue why.

I also tried to get into bed with my parents a few years ago. My brother in law tried to get into bed with my sisters friend. Her father in law regularly tries to get into bed with her and her husband,

It's possible that this guys actions were intentional. But I have no idea how they could know that beyond reasonable doubt. I really hope there was more evidence, but in my experience lots of people don't believe sleepwalking is real. I wouldn't be surprised if he's in jail for something he really had no control over.

yourdeadwright

bcklschaps wrote: »

Sentence seems very harsh.

We are at the point in Ireland now, where as a man charged with any sexual crime you are going to get the book thrown at you. Your only defence is to plead guilty and hope for the most lenient sentence. It keeps everybody happy, Gaurds, Judges, politicians, feminists .... everybody except men of course. But sure who cares about them ? they had it good for long enough.



For those who say, a year isn't a harsh sentence, any recordrded criminal conviction never mind a custodial sentence and the bad publicity ...will basically preclude this guy from ever working in this country again.

Of course he will work again ,
I know plenty of people who have been in prison who are working right now
Obviously not as a Bank CEO or mayor of Dublin but of course he can work again

meeeeh

bcklschaps wrote: »

Sentence seems very harsh.

We are at the point in Ireland now, where as a man charged with any sexual crime you are going to get the book thrown at you. Your only defence is to plead guilty and hope for the most lenient sentence. It keeps everybody happy, Gaurds, Judges, politicians, feminists .... everybody except men of course. But sure who cares about them ? they had it good for long enough.



For those who say, a year isn't a harsh sentence, any recordrded criminal conviction never mind a custodial sentence and the bad publicity ...will basically preclude this guy from ever working in this country again. In fact the way things have gone, he's unlikely to be able to even live in this country again. All for what seems to have been a drunken fumble.

This is complete hysterical overreaction. If anything the rape conviction stats paint very different story.

retro:electro

blue note wrote: »

I'm full of sympathy for the guy here. From about 20 years old to 28 I was often doing things in my sleep. If i was drinking they were more likely, but I didn't need to be drinking for an incident. I don't think people understand that you can do things while asleep and have no control of them.

Most commonly, I'd take off my underpants and go to sleep on the couch with my duvet. Relatively harmless, but if someone caught me walking down the corridor naked it could have been trouble for me.

The two that could really have gotten me in trouble were the time I stayed with a former college housemate and the sleepwalking in a hostel in lahinch. For the former, I got up during the night and got into her bed and slept there. I was in my underpants and her a thong. I didn't do anything, but it was a surprise for her to wake up to me there. I probably went to the bathroom and thought she was my girlfriend and got into bed with her.

In lahinch, I got up in the middle of the night and walked out of my room, outside (in November during a storm) and still didn't wake up. I woke during the night when the two guys whose room I wandered into wondered who the fcuk was in a bed in their room. They woke me and after I came to I legged it out of the room and wandered the halls in my boxers until i found my room. If I had wandered into a room with two girls in it, I could conceivably have been in real trouble and been a discussion on boards here.

I also occasionally would try to have sex with my girlfriend when asleep. I don't think it was ever any more than her waking to me humping her leg and saying something crude (which would be completely out of character for me). I don't know how it never resulted in sex.

I once gave her a box in the nose while asleep too. I woke up to her hitting me and swearing at me and me not having a clue why.

I also tried to get into bed with my parents a few years ago. My brother in law tried to get into bed with my sisters friend. Her father in law regularly tries to get into bed with her and her husband,

It's possible that this guys actions were intentional. But I have no idea how they could know that beyond reasonable doubt. I really hope there was more evidence, but in my experience lots of people don't believe sleepwalking is real. I wouldn't be surprised if he's in jail for something he really had no control over.

I think you’re confused. He wasn’t asleep, he was pissed drunk. She was asleep and he forced himself on her.

Hoboo

"Show me your clit" were the words he used.

Which are strange words to use, sounds like words used commonly between two people that are sexually comfortable with each other, not something you would say to someone you've never been with before.

Boggles

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Of course he will work again ,

I doubt he will work as a taxi driver again.

yourdeadwright

Hoboo wrote: »

"Show me your clit" were the words he used.

Which are strange words to use, sounds like words used commonly between two people that are sexually comfortable with each other, not something you would say to someone you've never been with before.

You like the rest of us have absolutely no idea what he would say to his partner or what he would say to someone else in bed, ,

Why would you even think you can assume his intention form the statement " show me your clit"

blue note

Grayson wrote: »

. You can assume that she will consent because she always has and you have no reason to think she wouldn't.

.

Wait, you're saying that there are times where consent can be assumed? You're obviously right like in the example you gave, but I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to say that.

eagle eye

yourdeadwright wrote:

Why would you even think you can assume his intention form the statement " show me your clit"

If there is any doubt it's not guilty. If you can't make your mind up it's not guilty.

inforfun

Who was living in that house and in whose bedroom did it happen?

If the guy is living there with his fiance and that friend had crawled into "his" bedroom i can kind of see how this went completely wrong when completely pissed.

Maybe drink a bit less next time.

yourdeadwright

Boggles wrote: »

I doubt he will work as a taxi driver again.

I could be wrong but currently the only offences that can stop becoming a taxi driver are e drug-trafficking, money laundering and firearms offences, ,

Seems crazy that rape is not one of them but I think above are the current ones I could be wrong ,

Patrick2010

Meanwhile this guy walks naked into the company secretarys hotel room (funny he picked that room), gets no jail but does get 10 million euro. Difference being a high powered legal team.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kenmare-resources-appeals-10m-defamation-award-to-deputy-chairman-after-naked-sleep-walk-891672.html

Taxi driver was obviously drunk and had no memory of what he did, obviously people saying he deserved jail have never got so similarly drunk.

yourdeadwright

eagle eye wrote: »

If there is any doubt it's not guilty. If you can't make your mind up it's not guilty.

The thing that made him guilty was touching her vagina not the statement,

I'm simply saying we have no idea if he would only say that to his wife, or to someone else ,

bcklschaps

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Of course he will work again ,
I know plenty of people who have been in prison who are working right now
Obviously not as a Bank CEO or mayor of Dublin but of course he can work again

If you are asked in an interview or application form about any previous Criminal convictions ...and you say yes. Do you honestly think you will be getting the job ?

If you lie and they find out about it ... Sacked !!!

The only person that will concievably give you a job knowing your history is a family relation or a close friend and even they won't want you if its a sexual type offence.

A life of crime or social welfare is all thats there for you if you have a criminal conviction. That or the Aeroplane.

amcalester

eagle eye wrote: »

If there is any doubt it's not guilty. If you can't make your mind up it's not guilty.

This is a question about intent, he admitted the action but thought that it was a different person.

So, in regards to the intention, does the person that the act is committed on matter in terms of the intent?

Boggles

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I could be wrong but currently the only offences that can stop becoming a taxi driver are e drug-trafficking, money laundering and firearms offences, ,

Seems crazy that rape is not one of them but I think above are the current ones I could be wrong ,

Everything and anything can preclude you from becoming a taxi driver, it's down to the discretion of the Super.

yourdeadwright

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Meanwhile this guy walks naked into the company secretarys hotel room (funny he picked that room), gets no jail but does get 10 million euro. Difference being a high powered legal team.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kenmare-resources-appeals-10m-defamation-award-to-deputy-chairman-after-naked-sleep-walk-891672.html

Taxi driver was obviously drunk and had no memory of what he did, obviously people saying he deserved jail have never got so similarly drunk.

Wow how are your missing the main point here,

The taxi driver sexually assaulted her the other chap didn't touch anyone ,

GreeBo

meeeeh wrote: »

There are different levels of sexual assault. Not everything is on par with rape but yeah touching you partners genitals in sexual way while they are asleep is assault.

I know you will find another silly example to dismiss any type of assault. If you are the type of a person who excuses every assault with but my wife kisses the back of my head you'll probably never get why touching someone's genitals when they are asleep is wrong.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree.
You are implying that almost every interaction is on the sexual assault spectrum, from the kissing your partner without consent, all the way up to rape.

If everything is sexual assault then arguably nothing is, which is clearly not true.

Sexual assault used to mean something to most people, now you have no idea if someone was raped or someone tried to pick them up in a club.

It demeans the term and is totally counterproductive.

"another silly example"?
I was replying to the poster who said touching your wife in their sleep is a sexual assault.

I'm not dismissing any type of assault, on the contrary I'm trying to highlight sexual assault, by removing all the other nonsense that is clearly not an assault.
I dont know why you are trying to paint me as someone who excuses sexual assaults, I'd like it if you could argue against the post and not get personal, thanks so much.

bcklschaps

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Meanwhile this guy walks naked into the company secretarys hotel room (funny he picked that room), gets no jail but does get 10 million euro. Difference being a high powered legal team.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/kenmare-resources-appeals-10m-defamation-award-to-deputy-chairman-after-naked-sleep-walk-891672.html

Taxi driver was obviously drunk and had no memory of what he did, obviously people saying he deserved jail have never got so similarly drunk.

Soo true. I doubt there is one person on this thread today who hasn't done something a little dodgey (ie. Illegal) when they were under the influence?? The only difference being you didn't get hauled up in front of a judge.

Ruraldweller56

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The home-grown talent and class available to the average Irishwoman never fails to impress.

Seriously? You're trying to turn this into some propaganda for your wierd open borders fetish? Grow up.

yourdeadwright

Boggles wrote: »

Everything and anything can preclude you from becoming a taxi driver, it's down to the discretion of the Super.

True but the ones I mention automatically disqualify you ,
Plenty of taxi drives with convictions , like thousand of jobs,

People who think he won't work again are wrong

eagle eye

yourdeadwright wrote:

The thing that made him guilty was touching her vagina not the statement,

He admitted what happened in a statement to a Garda.
If he was a thug, a liar or had no remorse he wouldn't have admitted to it, went to court all you have is a she said vs he said and it's very hard for a jury to convict.
It appears he is an honest man with no criminal past of any kind who made a mistake thinking it was his own bed. He obviously believes there was no intent.
Seems very harsh to me.

yourdeadwright wrote:

I'm simply saying we have no idea if he would only say that to his wife, or to someone else ,

Yeah that's true but in fairness it'd be a very odd thing to say to anybody in any circumstance. Gotta think he felt it was his partner, everything I've read and heard suggests that to me.

yourdeadwright

bcklschaps wrote: »

If you are asked in an interview or application form about any previous Criminal convictions ...and you say yes. Do you honestly think you will be getting the job ?

If you lie and they find out about it ... Sacked !!!

The only person that will concievably give you a job knowing your history is a family relation or a close friend and even they won't want you if its a sexual type offence.

A life of crime or social welfare is all thats there for you if you have a criminal conviction. That or the Aeroplane.

Again depends on the jobs,

I know a few in the building game who have done fine

Madly enough I know one was convicted of manslaughter and he is doing incredible well and you wouldn't have the foggiest of his previous conviction if you ever meet him,

Boggles

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Plenty of taxi drives with convictions

Sexual assault convictions? I hope not.

yourdeadwright

eagle eye wrote: »

He admitted what happened in a statement to a Garda.
If he was a thug, a liar or had no remorse he wouldn't have admitted to it, went to court all you have is a she said vs he said and it's very hard for a jury to convict.
It appears he is an honest man with no criminal past of any kind who made a mistake thinking it was his own bed. He obviously believes there was no intent.
Seems very harsh to me.


Yeah that's true but in fairness it'd be a very odd thing to say to anybody in any circumstance. Gotta think he felt it was his partner, everything I've read and heard suggests that to me.

Honestly I don't think there is enough in the report for any of us to make a fair judgement,

The fact he has no criminal past means very little to me, I know its nothing case at all but look at Graham Dwyer on paper the perfect citizen in reality not so much ,

eagle eye

yourdeadwright wrote:

The fact he has no criminal past means very little to me, I know its nothing case at all but look at Graham Dwyer on paper the perfect citizen in reality not so much ,

He admitted what happened in a statement to a Garda.
He is not a murderer.
There are two reasons that make it a hell of a lot different.

yourdeadwright

Boggles wrote: »

Sexual assault convictions? I hope not.

It's possible , as you said depends on the case as far as im aware its not something that automatically rules you at this point in the regulations

Again I could be wrong there so don't take that as gospel

yourdeadwright

eagle eye wrote: »

He admitted what happened in a statement to a Garda.
He is not a murderer.
There are two reasons that make it a hell of a lot different.

To be fair I did say it was a hell of a lot different
My point is lots of people have zero criminal history before they commit a crime ,

Grayson

blue note wrote: »

Wait, you're saying that there are times where consent can be assumed? You're obviously right like in the example you gave, but I'm pretty sure you're not allowed to say that.

yes you are allowed.No-one is saying that a person in a long term committed relationship has to ask permission every time before they kiss their partner. Literally no-one in the world is saying that.

There are situations where consent can be assumed. And anyone in a long term relationship will know about these times and how they vary between person to person.

For example someone may like holding hands at home but not in public. In that case, because you know what they're like you can assume that they would not want you to hold their hand in public.
And even in that situation If you were to forcefully grab their hand and not let it go, despite them protesting, that could be considered assault.

As you grow to know someone you will learn what they like/don't like and you will learn to respect each others boundaries. Sometimes stepping over those boundaries will be assault. Sometimes it will be legal but the person doing it is still a dick.

GreeBo

retro:electro wrote: »

And now we have numpties on the internet making themselves judge and jury of what constitutes sexual assault. Maybe leave that up to the person who was violated and the DPP and the jury who have more to go on than a few lines in an article

So you think any alleged victim should decide if they were assaulted or not?

You dont think there might be a bit of bias issue there? How about the numerous false accusations we have seen?

Finally, ironically, I'm not the one arguing on whats assault, I'm being told that X is assault by definition (no consent), even when I'm the "victim" and dont consider it assault.

Go figure.

bcklschaps

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Again depends on the jobs,

I know a few in the building game who have done fine

Madly enough I know one was convicted of manslaughter and he is doing incredible well and you wouldn't have the foggiest of his previous conviction if you ever meet him,

Are you for real ?? you actually made me laugh out loud

Maybe if I'm recruiting an enforcer for my brothel or something .....to keep them bitches in check


The fact that you call it the "building game" tells me you don't work in construction and don't know anything about it....soo you might want to stop right there with that line of codology

retro:electro

GreeBo wrote: »

So you think any alleged victim should decide if they were assaulted or not?

You dont think there might be a bit of bias issue there? How about the numerous false accusations we have seen?

Finally, ironically, I'm not the one arguing on whats assault, I'm being told that X is assault by definition (no consent), even when I'm the "victim" and dont consider it assault.

Go figure.

No the alleged victim doesn’t decide, the victim reports the alleged crime and the DPP decide, which is what happened here and what happens in every other case in the country.
Sorry to tell you but if you barge in on someone and help yourself to their genitals when they’re in no fit state to consent then yes they have the right to report you for assault. If you don’t feel violated and don’t report that’s your prerogative. The fact they are your girlfriend/boyfriend is moot.

Sweet.Science

Around 10 years ago one my mates was having a house shin dig when his folks were away.

I fell alseep in the boxroom. The next day 2 girls who were friends of mine said they had a look at my manhood when i was alseep because they heard stories that i was well endowed

All good craic . However if i was offended thats sexual assault i assume ?

GreeBo

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Around 10 years ago one my mates was having a house shin dig when his folks were away.

I fell alseep in the boxroom. The next day 2 girls who were friends of mine said they had a look at my manhood when i was alseep because they heard stories that i was well endowed

All good craic . However if i was offended thats sexual assault i assume ?

Nope thats assault either way as there was no consent.

Also, if your johnson was so small as to offend them then you could also be done. :P

GreeBo

retro:electro wrote: »

No the alleged victim doesn’t decide, the victim reports the alleged crime and the DPP decide, which is what happened here and what happens in every other case in the country.
Sorry to tell you but if you barge in on someone and help yourself to their genitals when they’re in no fit state to consent then yes they have the right to report you for assault. If you don’t feel violated and don’t report that’s your prerogative. The fact they are your girlfriend/boyfriend is moot.

So its only "numpties on the internet" that you agree with? Gotcha.

Over and out.

sbsquarepants

Sweet.Science wrote: »

All good craic . However if i was offended thats sexual assault i assume ?

Say you snook upstairs and had a quick perv at a sleeping womans fanny?
All good clean family fun do you reckon??

As for this case - id say seeing as this man and woman knew each other well, if it was a genuine mistake, himself and his mate, her boyfriend surely could have talked to her and calmed her down.

I've made a twat of myself when drunk a couple of times, no one ever felt the need to press charges!

Something tells me this judge got it right.

Gbear

yourdeadwright wrote: »

"Judge Elma Sheahan said that Doran's failure to acknowledge his wrongdoing raised a question as to the level of insight he has into his offending"

That's a red flag surely ? or if he said I don't remember is that a failure to acknowledge his wrong doing ?

Either way the victim did nothing to deserve what happened, so drunk or sober it was still him wo committed the act, unfortunate or not he most be held responsible for his actions ,

If I was walking down the street, tripped, flew headfirst into someone and knocked out all their teeth, they would certainly be a victim of something horrific, but I would not necessarily be guilty of something criminal.

In reality, I probably would feel contrition, but I wouldn't have any moral imperative to do so, and I certainly wouldn't acknowledge criminal liability.

As seamus said, you'd have to take the reporting with a pinch of salt (are there other takes on this case in the media?), but if it was a genuine case of mistaken identity then there is absolutely no reason for him to face any penalty of any sort, never mind a custodial sentence.

retro:electro

GreeBo wrote: »

So its only "numpties on the internet" that you agree with? Gotcha.

Over and out.

Okay Columbo whatever that is supposed to mean.

You seem to agree that the case above (posted by sweet science) constitutes assault as there was no consent, so what’s so different in this case? Maybe have a word with yourself there you seem to be a bit confused.

retro:electro

Gbear wrote: »

If I was walking down the street, tripped, flew headfirst into someone and knocked out all their teeth, they would certainly be a victim of something horrific, but I would not necessarily be guilty of something criminal.

Yeah but he didn’t trip and fall into fondling her vagina. His only defence was he forced himself on the wrong person, plus he showed no remorse.

jimgoose

retro:electro wrote: »

No the alleged victim doesn’t decide, the victim reports the alleged crime and the DPP decide, which is what happened here and what happens in every other case in the country.
Sorry to tell you but if you barge in on someone and help yourself to their genitals when they’re in no fit state to consent then yes they have the right to report you for assault. If you don’t feel violated and don’t report that’s your prerogative. The fact they are your girlfriend/boyfriend is moot.

No, I'm sorry but if Woman felt like she had been assaulted if, while in bed half-pissed and half-asleep, I came in in the same sort of condition and gave her an oul' rub in a, shall we say, intimate location, I would have to seriously re-evaluate our "relationship".

retro:electro

jimgoose wrote: »

No, I'm sorry but if Woman felt like she had been assaulted if, while in bed half-pissed and half-asleep, I came in in the same sort of condition and gave her an oul' rub in a, shall we say, intimate location, I would have to seriously re-evaluate our "relationship".

Okay? Good for you..

sbsquarepants

jimgoose wrote: »

No, I'm sorry but if Woman felt like she had been assaulted if, while in bed half-pissed and half-asleep, I came in in the same sort of condition and gave her an oul' rub in a, shall we say, intimate location, I would have to seriously re-evaluate our "relationship".

True. Particularly if that relationship was "a mates girlfriend";)

Feisar

bcklschaps wrote: »

Are you for real ?? you actually made me laugh out loud

Maybe if I'm recruiting an enforcer for my brothel or something .....to keep them bitches in check


The fact that you call it the "building game" tells me you don't work in construction and don't know anything about it....soo you might want to stop right there with that line of codology

I work in construction and have heard the term "game" a few times. It doesn't signify anything either way.

jimgoose

retro:electro wrote: »

Okay? Good for you..

Er, yes, I expect so...

sbsquarepants wrote: »

True. Particularly if that relationship was "a mates girlfriend";)

I was replying to the context of "The fact they are your girlfriend/boyfriend is moot.". I have no real opinion one way or the other on the sentence in the OP.

yourdeadwright

bcklschaps wrote: »

Are you for real ?? you actually made me laugh out loud

Maybe if I'm recruiting an enforcer for my brothel or something .....to keep them bitches in check


The fact that you call it the "building game" tells me you don't work in construction and don't know anything about it....soo you might want to stop right there with that line of codology

I'm hardly going to tell you exactly what he does for a living , as im sure there are plenty of people he comes into contact that have no idea about his past,

Again there are plenty of ex offenders working jobs in Ireland as we speak its a fact ,

Again depending on the crime and of course the type of job ,

yourdeadwright

Feisar wrote: »

I work in construction and have heard the term "game" a few times. It doesn't signify anything either way.

I agree it's a common phrase and I used as I didn't want to say his exact job

Grayson

Sweet.Science wrote: »

Around 10 years ago one my mates was having a house shin dig when his folks were away.

I fell alseep in the boxroom. The next day 2 girls who were friends of mine said they had a look at my manhood when i was alseep because they heard stories that i was well endowed

All good craic . However if i was offended thats sexual assault i assume ?

So you think that it should be legal to find someone who's drunk and passed out, and undress them so you can have a look at their genitals?