Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

aloooof

typhoony wrote: »

I think 2018 we got lucky, a few of those key games we could easily have lost. certainly the win in Australia was an achievement.

Every top team needs a bit of luck. But we won 11 out of 12 tests. The only Tier 1 team we didn't beat was SA (and we didn't play them). You don't do that by luck.

typhoony wrote: »

The issue for me is that even though we've had some very good young players come through except for James Ryan none of them have been world class, by that I mean as good or better than the likes of Sexton, Murray, Sean O'Brien, O'Driscoll. in fact most area good bit below their level.

I think we're going to struggle for the next few years until we get 3 or 4 top class players coming through.

Surely that makes Schmidt's achievements all the more impressive then? 2018 was our most successful year ever and we did it without genuine all-time greats like Drico and O'Connell.

D14Rugby

99problems1 wrote: »

1 grand slam in 6 years is hardly a winning culture.

As I have said already, winning a championship where losing 1 game out of 5 (really 1 game out of 3) is not impressive when several other teams finish on the same points...

And EVERYTHING in Ireland is set up for success for the national team. The international players are wrapped in cotton woll, they're barely club players at all except for the big european games.

James Ryan has 17 caps for Ireland yet he only has 31 caps for Leinster.

Whatever about Italy Scotland are a damn good side these days, beating them isn't a given, they're holders of the Calcutta Cup for a reason.

Podge_irl

D14Rugby wrote: »

Whatever about Italy Scotland are a damn good side these days, beating them isn't a given, they're holders of the Calcutta Cup for a reason.

They beat Italy and drew with England and came 5th in the table. They are, at best, intermittently good and capable of a surprise.

It's not a given, but there is also a reason they have won once in the last 7 matches against Ireland.

is_that_so

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A Grand Slam is lucky? :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

You could say the same with Wales this year, they got beaten out the door by France who then helped Wales win in second half. Any decent Scotland team would have won. England should have won only they crumbled......was that lucky?

A potential Grand Slam is down to the vagaries of the draw. Any team lucky enough to have 3 home games, Italy excepted, is in with a shout.

ionadnapokot

D14Rugby wrote: »

Whatever about Italy Scotland are a damn good side these days, beating them isn't a given, they're holders of the Calcutta Cup for a reason.

Scotland are a damn inconsistent side!!
What I’m most worried about is that they have a good start against Ireland. I’ve lost almost all confidence in this Ireland’s side ability to come back after conceding an early try.
It looks like they have also lost confidence in themselves. And who knows what state (mentally, physically and form wise) Sexton is going to be in come the Scottish game.

Shefwedfan

is_that_so wrote: »

A potential Grand Slam is down to the vagaries of the draw. Any team lucky enough to have 3 home games, Italy excepted, is in with a shout.

Yeah that's why we have loads of them....oh wait.....


What an idiotic statement

is_that_so

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Yeah that's why we have loads of them....oh wait.....

They don't come often and they don't always happen to the best team. We've won 4 6N since 2009 but only 2 Grand Slams. I'll take 4 over 2 any time.

D14Rugby

Podge_irl wrote: »

They beat Italy and drew with England and came 5th in the table. They are, at best, intermittently good and capable of a surprise.

It's not a given, but there is also a reason they have won once in the last 7 matches against Ireland.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be beating them, just that it's far from a give and was suggested in the post I quoted.

The reason for that is that we have been very good, not that they have been bad, this Scottish team are no mugs.

LuckyLloyd

Boot going in across the media this morning. Hard truths. This group is staring into the abyss. A group exit or quarter final hammering will invalidate a lot of the achievements of the past few years and put us back to ground zero. They have a few weeks to sort themselves out, hopefully they can.

Podge_irl

D14Rugby wrote: »

I'm not saying we shouldn't be beating them, just that it's far from a give and was suggested in the post I quoted.

The reason for that is that we have been very good, not that they have been bad, this Scottish team are no mugs.

No, but we are still strong favourites to beat them even after recent performances. Much like we did in Murrayfield while playing poorly in the 6N. They may not be mugs, but they're not particularly good either and have nothing like the power game of Wales and England.

Tigerandahalf

aloooof wrote: »

Whatever about Beirne being given a shot at 6, I really don't see him as a 7. Don't think he has the pace.

I really rate VdF, he typically has a phenomenal workrate, but I think if Leavy hadn't gotten injured, he'd be our starting 7. He brings a huge level of physicality.

VdF has a poor injury record though and for me has performed best for Ireland off the bench when the game opens up. Beirne is a machine. He has bags of pace, will gain metres, win turnover ball and has a brilliant ability to link play. But we don't play to his strengths as we don't offload the ball.

I think Joe favours certain type of players and there is no doubt Leinster players have an advantage. How Luke McGrath gets in ahead of Cooney given Cooney also gives you a goalkicking option is puzzling.

He hasn't helped himself by bringing on back up players like Marmion with 2 minutes to go in a game. Token gestures that give no chance for those players to make an impression and gives Murray and others the impression they are undroppable.

Anyway what is done is done. I just hope we can turn things around. Joe is in a tricky spot. If he tries too many new players the next day against Wales we could take another bad beating denting confidence further.

ionadnapokot

D14Rugby wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

They beat Italy and drew with England and came 5th in the table. They are, at best, intermittently good and capable of a surprise.

It's not a given, but there is also a reason they have won once in the last 7 matches against Ireland.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be beating them, just that it's far from a give and was suggested in the post I quoted.

The reason for that is that we have been very good, not that they have been bad, this Scottish team are no mugs.

A stat to give us hope:
Scotland conceded first try in 6 consecutive matches, within 2 minutes in the last 3 matches

Bus needs to be on time...

A stat to despair:
Ireland have only comeback to win 8 Tests when down by more than 5 points at HT, last time was v Wales, 2009

schmoo2k

Shefwedfan wrote: »

A Grand Slam is lucky? :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Remember the French game, I think there was an element of luck in that win...

Shefwedfan

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

VdF has a poor injury record though and for me has performed best for Ireland off the bench when the game opens up. Beirne is a machine. He has bags of pace, will gain metres, win turnover ball and has a brilliant ability to link play. But we don't play to his strengths as we don't offload the ball.

I think Joe favours certain type of players and there is no doubt Leinster players have an advantage. How Luke McGrath gets in ahead of Cooney given Cooney also gives you a goalkicking option is puzzling.

He hasn't helped himself by bringing on back up players like Marmion with 2 minutes to go in a game. Token gestures that give no chance for those players to make an impression and gives Murray and others the impression they are undroppable.

Anyway what is done is done. I just hope we can turn things around. Joe is in a tricky spot. If he tries too many new players the next day against Wales we could take another bad beating denting confidence further.

I don't understand why McGrah seems to be so underrated

Cooney was in Leinster, couldn't get a game. Went to Connacht, couldn't get a game. Went to Ulster and grabbed the chance and had a good season. But it is one season.....


McGrath has been performing at the top level for Leinster since 2017 as the main starter. Winning a bucket load of trophies during that time....if anyone should feel aggrieved at not getting a shot at Murray I would think McGrath has a better case to Cooney

D14Rugby

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, but we are still strong favourites to beat them even after recent performances. Much like we did in Murrayfield while playing poorly in the 6N. They may not be mugs, but they're not particularly good either and have nothing like the power game of Wales and England.

I know, we should beat them at the world cup. All I'm saying is saying stuff like

"losing 1 game out of 5 (really 1 game out of 3)"

Is stupid because Scotland are far from a walk over

Podge_irl

ionadnapokot wrote: »

A stat to despair:
Ireland have only comeback to win 8 Tests when down by more than 5 points at HT, last time was v Wales, 2009

Man, I knew we didn't look good in this stat line but that's pretty bonkers.

I suppose the counterpoint is that when we are at our best we just don't really tend to fall behind by much given the nature of our game.

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A group exit or quarter final hammering will invalidate a lot of the achievements of the past few years and put us back to ground zero.

For some maybe, but I'd have no idea why.

This team have achieved a lot. They may or may not be on the wane, we have an insufficient sample size to say one way or another and the poor results have plenty of context.

Many have written of Gatland's Wales over the years and yet here they are with a panel of players I wouldn't overly rate.

Speaking of Wales, to hell with the world cup - Ireland need to go at these games like they are world cup finals. Forget about injury risks, we need to see the machine that bulldozed through 2018.

That should mean two wins, at the least a home win and narrow away loss.

Podge_irl

D14Rugby wrote: »

I know, we should beat them at the world cup. All I'm saying is saying stuff like

"losing 1 game out of 5 (really 1 game out of 3)"

Is stupid because Scotland are far from a walk over

Ah, in that sense yes, I'd agree.

Italy, alas, is still far too easy a game generally but beating Wales, England, Scotland and France is not easy.

schmoo2k

schmoo2k wrote: »

Remember the French game, I think there was an element of luck in that win...

Having the discipline, coordination and composure to march through 40+ phases with the clock going into the red and pinching a drop goal has nothing to do with luck and everything to do with endless drills on the training pitch and a talented and committed group of players.

BoardsMember

Predictably enough with a 37 year old hooker, this is our biggest problem position. It stops us picking a balanced & in-form back row because POM is needed in the lineout. It means we have to have Toner in 2nd row, rather than maybe looking at Henderson & Ryan, which would look a formidable pair.

I hope to starts Marmion against Wales, with McGrath on the bench. He needs to get other scrum halves ready to play, and seriously consider the fact that Murray may not be playing well enough.

Shefwedfan

Up till this season everyone was raving about the "Rugby Championship" and NZ winning it each year.....SA, Aus and Argies shouldnt have even bothered turning up for the last 3 championships, they where all woeful. This was the first year it was any sort of challenge to NZ. SA put up a bit of a fight last year but nothing major.

The 6 nations is the most competitive yearly international tournament, the SH would love to have something similar.

99problems1

D14Rugby wrote: »

I know, we should beat them at the world cup. All I'm saying is saying stuff like

"losing 1 game out of 5 (really 1 game out of 3)"

Is stupid because Scotland are far from a walk over

I actually miscalculated, it's really 1 game out of 2. Wales and England.

France, Scotland and Italy should be victories every year. I mean, Kidney winning a grand slam could be seen as a bigger achievement when France were an actual good team. France won a grand slam in 2010.

As for the punching above the weight - we're one of a select few countries who play rugby at a high level. Sure if being as good as we are is such an achievement then NZ winning a world cup must be one of the greatest achievements in sporting history?

Podge_irl

Sticking with Best was a risk that quite possibly is not paying off but it was a calculated one in the sense that Schmidt simply doesn't rate any of the other options anyway.

Shefwedfan

schmoo2k wrote: »

Remember the French game, I think there was an element of luck in that win...

Might call it luck or some might call it excellent play


The catch from Earls, the ability of the forwards to keep the ball, no knock on.....the pass from Murray etc.....


All require skill

BoardsMember

BoardsMember wrote: »

Predictably enough with a 37 year old hooker, this is our biggest problem position. It stops us picking a balanced & in-form back row because POM is needed in the lineout. It means we have to have Toner in 2nd row, rather than maybe looking at Henderson & Ryan, which would look a formidable pair.

I hope to starts Marmion against Wales, with McGrath on the bench. He needs to get other scrum halves ready to play, and seriously consider the fact that Murray may not be playing well enough.

I don't think POM's selection is a derivative of Best's selection.

Losing Leavy, SOB, Ferris, Heaslip has a much bigger impact on who is in or out of our backrow.

As a unit they feel light weight. We got bullied on Saturday and our backrow went completely within themselves. Only Healy, Henderson and Furlong attempted to give as good as they got from the forwards and Healy picked up a knock for his efforts.

Actually thought Porter was solid enough when he came on.

Hooker. Backrow. Our problems on Saturday stemmed from those 4 positions.

Henderson to 6 could be an answer, but playing second rows in the backrow has back-fired on a fair few coaches the last couple of seasons.

sydthebeat

one thing about our line outs on saturday... them seemed completely needlessly complicated.
England knew they had the numbers to match up and simply lifted at 2 and 6 and disrupted over half of our line outs.

BoardsMember

Podge_irl wrote: »

Sticking with Best was a risk that quite possibly is not paying off but it was a calculated one in the sense that Schmidt simply doesn't rate any of the other options anyway.

100% agree. I think it was the right call too. He had to either back him like he has, or look for him to retire 2 years ago to force his own hand at giving alternatives enough game time to unearth the successor.

ionadnapokot

Podge_irl wrote: »

Man, I knew we didn't look good in this stat line but that's pretty bonkers.

I suppose the counterpoint is that when we are at our best we just don't really tend to fall behind by much given the nature of our game.

Zactly. When Ireland can impose their game early, it generally ends well.

I think ive given the stat below before-
Of Ireland’s 9 losses under Joe in 6N & RWC matches:
7 of those games the opposition got the first try
5 of those games the opposition scored a try in the first 20 mins.

D14Rugby

sydthebeat wrote: »

one thing about our line outs on saturday... them seemed completely needlessly complicated.
England knew they had the numbers to match up and simply lifted at 2 and 6 and disrupted over half of our line outs.

They weren't over complicated just done too slow for how complicated they were

Portsalon

dh1985 wrote: »

This is the winning culture that Joe has bred into Irish rugby. And expectations are of a grand slam every year. And then when it doesn't happen gob****es look for his head on a block. He is a victim of his own success unfortunately. I hope he can prove these guys wrong

What would "proving these guys wrong" involve?

Winning the warm-ups against Wales?

Arriving safely in Japan without getting abducted by aliens en-route?

Not winning the RWC but managing to qualify for the last 8?

Not winning the RWC but managing to qualify for the last 4?

Not winning the RWC but managing to qualify for the last 2?

Winning the RWC?

Shefwedfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

one thing about our line outs on saturday... them seemed completely needlessly complicated.
England knew they had the numbers to match up and simply lifted at 2 and 6 and disrupted over half of our line outs.

The only people who didnt seem confused was the English players, they always seemed to have their jumper at the right position

Well maybe not always, but majority

aloooof

Portsalon wrote: »

What would "proving these guys wrong" involve?

Winning the warm-ups against Wales?

Arriving safely in Japan without getting abducted by aliens en-route?

Not winning the RWC but managing to qualify for the last 8?

Not winning the RWC but managing to qualify for the last 4?

Not winning the RWC but managing to qualify for the last 2?

Winning the RWC?

The reality is if Ireland get to a RWC SF, very few will remember the results from the warm-up games.

lawrencesummers

The only thing we can all agree on is that Joe needs to make changes to his ‘best’ starting 15 for the Scotland game.

Some think it involves changes to at least one or a combination of 2,6,8,9,10,15, but there is universal agreement that some change is needed.

The problems are
1.will those changes be made? Is joe willing to make the hard calls and drop players that have performed for him before but are not now cutting the mustard.

2. Is it too late to make those changes ? Will the people who come in have the necessary experience and exposure to be effective?

Zzippy

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't understand why McGrah seems to be so underrated

Cooney was in Leinster, couldn't get a game. Went to Connacht, couldn't get a game. Went to Ulster and grabbed the chance and had a good season. But it is one season.....

Two seasons. He signed in 2017 and has played 45 times for Ulster.

He couldn't get a game in Leinster because of Reddan and Boss, two experienced international 9s ahead of him. He was behind Marmion at Connacht but got plenty of game time. Both Connacht and Ulster fans very much rate him. McGrath is a decent player but generally gets quality ball from his pack. We'll see how highly he is rated this season, when JGP is Irish qualified and we see who starts the big games for Leinster.

Mr Tickle

Portsalon wrote: »

What would "proving these guys wrong" involve?

Winning the warm-ups against Wales?

Arriving safely in Japan without getting abducted by aliens en-route?

Not winning the RWC but managing to qualify for the last 8?

Not winning the RWC but managing to qualify for the last 4?

Not winning the RWC but managing to qualify for the last 2?

Winning the RWC?

Given the way the draw has fallen and how good SA and NZ look, losing in a QF while playing well wouldn't upset me a huge amount.
What hurt about the losses to Wales and Argentina was the manner in which we went out. And to (seemingly) inferior teams.

ionadnapokot

BoardsMember wrote: »

100% agree. I think it was the right call too. He had to either back him like he has, or look for him to retire 2 years ago to force his own hand at giving alternatives enough game time to unearth the successor.

From the song Shallow

Tell me something, Joe
Aren't you tired tryin' to fill that void?
Or do you need more?
Ain't it hard keeping it so hardcore?

I'm falling
In all the good times I find myself
Longing for change
And in the bad times I fear myself

I'm off the deep end, watch as I dive in
I'll never meet the ground
Crash through the surface, where they can't hurt us
We're far from the Grand Slam now

lawrencesummers

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I don't understand why McGrah seems to be so underrated

Cooney was in Leinster, couldn't get a game. Went to Connacht, couldn't get a game. Went to Ulster and grabbed the chance and had a good season. But it is one season.....


McGrath has been performing at the top level for Leinster since 2017 as the main starter. Winning a bucket load of trophies during that time....if anyone should feel aggrieved at not getting a shot at Murray I would think McGrath has a better case to Cooney

McGrath’s passing is slow and not accurate enough, his kicking game isn’t good enough and he hasn’t the fitness for 60+ minutes and nowhere near the physicality that Murray brings.

Exclamation Marc

99problems1 wrote: »

Sexton - 34 and past his peak. Nothing special and I'd have Carbery ahead of him. Carbery is injured which is another problem.

The current world player of the year is "nothing special". You gave me a laugh, I'll give you that

Out of form on the international stage maybe, but who isn't. But "nothing special", you're gas.

CowboyTed

Tikki Wang Wang wrote: »

Carbery is looking more likely to travel even if he misses Scotland game as Byrne has played himself off the plane.

Sits too far back in the pocket for too much of the game...

We said it before the game that Aki is going to get milled with Farrell teeing him up from way out.. By the time the ball gets into the midfield they look like a crowd trying to get into a nightclub...

schmoo2k

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Might call it luck or some might call it excellent play


The catch from Earls, the ability of the forwards to keep the ball, no knock on.....the pass from Murray etc.....


All require skill

What about the previous 80 minutes that got us into that situation (losing)? IMO there was at least an element of Good Fortune during that final play!

Faugheen

lawrencesummers wrote: »

McGrath’s passing is slow and not accurate enough, his kicking game isn’t good enough and he hasn’t the fitness for 60+ minutes and nowhere near the physicality that Murray brings.

This is just a load of nonsense really.

His passing I will give you, especially recently.

If you think his kicking game isn’t good enough then you don’t watch much of him. He has a great kicking game.

He’s also a very physical 9 and perhaps one of the best cover-tackling 9s out there.

I don’t think his form this season has been good enough, but I’ve seen nothing to suggest that Cooney is actually a better scrum half than him.

If I were to start a 9 tomorrow, it would be Marmion. Especially if Murray doesn’t find form very quickly.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if we didn’t see the Marmion/Carty tandem starting against Wales.

Henry Ford III

I'm hearing rumbles that Sexton's injury might take a good while to heal.

AbusesToilets

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I'm hearing rumbles that Sexton's injury might take a good while to heal.

What value Madigan or Jackson getting a call?. Would Joe back Byrne or Carty to play a 1/4 at this stage?

Faugheen

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I'm hearing rumbles that Sexton's injury might take a good while to heal.

Same. The fact the IRFU kept it quiet altogether leads me to believe it’s not a run-of-the-mill knock.

Byrne and Carty for the Scotland game so.

damianmcr

IRFU will rue the day they ditched Paddy Jackson.

I dont see why they are so secretive about this Sexton injury. Does Joe think it wont get out?

Henry Ford III

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What value Madigan or Jackson getting a call?. Would Joe back Byrne or Carty to play a 1/4 at this stage?

Anything is possible at this stage.

lawrencesummers

Faugheen wrote: »

This is just a load of nonsense really.

His passing I will give you, especially recently.

If you think his kicking game isn’t good enough then you don’t watch much of him. He has a great kicking game.

He’s also a very physical 9 and perhaps one of the best cover-tackling 9s out there.

I don’t think his form this season has been good enough, but I’ve seen nothing to suggest that Cooney is actually a better scrum half than him.

If I were to start a 9 tomorrow, it would be Marmion. Especially if Murray doesn’t find form very quickly.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if we didn’t see the Marmion/Carty tandem starting against Wales.

It’s all a load of nonsense but you agree with me. Go figure.

molloyjh

schmoo2k wrote: »

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Might call it luck or some might call it excellent play


The catch from Earls, the ability of the forwards to keep the ball, no knock on.....the pass from Murray etc.....


All require skill

What about the previous 80 minutes that got us into that situation (losing)? IMO there was at least an element of Good Fortune during that final play!

You could say that about pretty much every single sporting acheivement ever though. Because there is always an element of luck involved. That doesn't negate the level of skill involved either though.

lawrencesummers

Faugheen wrote: »

Same. The fact the IRFU kept it quiet altogether leads me to believe it’s not a run-of-the-mill knock.

Byrne and Carty for the Scotland game so.

If Sexton doesn’t play this weekend then you can be sure there is something wrong. There is no team in the world that won’t give their strongest OH 2 warm up games at a very minimum.

bennyl10

Hearing Johnny is ‘touch and go’ to make the plane...
Joey is a further 4 weeks out at best
Usually reliable source too.