Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Portsalon

salmocab wrote: »

Jack Mc Grath?

Good call!

99problems1

Jack McGrath isn't the same as just not being picked considering his off field issues.

99problems1

Still can't believe Cronin has been outcast like he has.

Cronin was around Joe long enough to be either in his WC reckoning or out of it before February of this year.

Absolutely crazy decision if you look back. Managed him at club and country for years and 7 months before a world cup he's dropped from the squad where our no.1 hooker is 37.

Either drop him 2 years ago and develop someone else or stick with it at that stage.

mfceiling

PTH2009 wrote: »

fear for this new era for some reason, i dont think Farrell will be strong enough on his own but ya never knw

I've a feeling Farrell will be fine and he's a hard Northerner. There'll be little sentiment with his decision making.

mfceiling

PTH2009 wrote: »

fear for this new era for some reason, i dont think Farrell will be strong enough on his own but ya never knw

I've a feeling Farrell will be fine and he's a hard Northerner. There'll be little sentiment with his decision making.

LuckyLloyd

A Sexton injury ruling him out of the WC would bail the squad and coach out mentally. There would be zero expectations in that scenario. That's quite the hidden silver lining, but it's all I've got.

is_that_so

Deleted User wrote: »

Such bizarre logic

Kudos for seeing a bright side, though!:D

is_that_so

salmocab wrote: »

The centrally contracted players are most of the ones that no new coach will be ‘dumping’.

If there is someone with better form I think they will. Dumping them is just releasing them back to their province. Recover form and they may be considered once again.

salmocab

is_that_so wrote: »

If there is someone with better form I think they will. Dumping them is just releasing them back to their province. Recover form and they may be considered once again.

Oh some may lose their starting spot but none will be dumped, dropped perhaps.

Beechwoodspark

Sorry to say but I suspect another QF exit for us. Would be delighted to be proven wrong

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Sorry to say but I suspect another QF exit for us. Would be delighted to be proven wrong

In fairness it's looked like that since the draw

salmocab

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In fairness it's looked like that since the draw

Or at least since SA started getting their shot together

flyton5

99problems1 wrote: »

Jack McGrath isn't the same as just not being picked considering his off field issues.

What off field issues do you speak of?

Tigerandahalf

salmocab wrote: »

Or at least since SA started getting their shot together

SA are no great shakes. They are very reliant on Handre Pollard staying fit at 10. He kicks his goals and is solid. Jantjies is a poor backup.

Their pack is limited and short on depth.

England look like the side that are still improving. If we are to meet them again at the latter stages the warm up game might be a great lesson on how to play them. They are much improved under the high ball and are a threat at the breakdown. However I still don't think they can look after the ball well enough, not as effective at clearing out rucks as Ireland.

It will be interesting to see who Jones opts for at 10/12/13. Will he stick with Ford/Farrell at 10/12 and Tuilagi at 13 or go with Tuilagi at 12 and Slade at 13. He has a few options there.

The one good thing about Ireland is their discipline is good. England have a few hot heads in Marler, Sinckler, Farrell and Tuilagi. Turn the pressure up and those boys will start to give up penalties and more.

We will have to wait and see what way Sexton and Murray are injury wise but no doubt they will be heavily targeted if they start games.

thomond2006

PTH2009 wrote: »

fear for this new era for some reason, i dont think Farrell will be strong enough on his own but ya never knw

in the 2020-2023 cycle we have 4 six nations, prob a tour to New Zealand or South Africa or Austrailia/ Argentina maybe USA (July 2020/21/22) and AI against the big SH teams

the 2016-2019 was quite amazing, 2 wins over the All Blacks, 1 Grand Slam, Series win Down under and a win in South Aftica. Among AI wins against Austrailia, South Africa, Argentina. The 2019 WC will hopefully add a to this amazing cycle but ATM very likely too

This gimmick is really stale PTH. I think you should consider a heel turn.

damianmcr

Their pack is limited and short on depth.

How on earth do you come to that conclusion about South Africa?

Shefwedfan

flyton5 wrote: »

What off field issues do you speak of?

He married a Munster woman :-)

Before Zzippy loses the plot it’s a joke...

He married Michael Corcoran’s daughter

Dubinusa

Centrally contracted players, if not performing must be jettisoned. If not, we will wallow in deep shyte.
Just because someone is centrally contracted, does not mean they're the best fit for the team.
POM will not survive much longer. Imo. There's too many younger players coming along.Paul Boyle may be an option soon. Caelan Doris is another. Ruddock has been better than him this past year.
Murray also is worthy of being dropped. Regardless of contract status. If the lad is dogshyte, he will be dropped. Farrell is not the type to stick with poor performers, imo
I thought Murray was the poorest international player we had all year.
RK, will be gone! Someone else will get a chance to develop.
Earl's has a year or so left, he also will fall out of favour.
Sexton is 34! His body is not the best and the next in line should get an opportunity soon.
There's 6 or 7 lads who I think will be kicking the door down fairly soon.
Boyle
Blade
Marty Moore
Baird
Rhys Marshall
EOS
Heffernan
I think they'll all see some time post rwc. Rea in Ulster also, if he stays healthy.
The wider squad will most likely see guys like T.O.D and DK also cast aside.
I think in hindsight that Ruddock could make this rwc. I would think that Schmidt would realize that a ball carrying 6 could level the packs a little. POM offers nothing . England and the Boks have massive packs and we need to counter that.
If we stick with the status quo and players who are out of form, we're doomed.

Clegg

According to Gerry Thornley the Irish side hasn't done much actual rugby training over the last few months. It's mostly been heavy duty gym work. Of course, it makes sense to get yourself in the best possible condition for the World Cup, but right now we're a mile behind the curve when it comes to skills.

bennyl10

Spingboks pack limited and short on depth?
We’ve reached peak delusion!

One of the best packs going into the WC

99problems1

Clegg wrote: »

According to Gerry Thornley the Irish side hasn't done much actual rugby training over the last few months. It's mostly been heavy duty gym work. Of course, it makes sense to get yourself in the best possible condition for the World Cup, but right now we're a mile behind the curve when it comes to skills.

Joe is hardly the type of coach to require much skill though. He's the Jose Mourinho of rugby.

He's turned Robbie Henshaw and Bundee Aki, two players who were wicked exciting runners at Connacht and turned them into battering rams.

Bundee has got a good career out of it, better than I thought for Ireland but Henshaw was seen as BODs heir and now he's just Jamie Roberts MKII.

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

According to Gerry Thornley the Irish side hasn't done much actual rugby training over the last few months. It's mostly been heavy duty gym work. Of course, it makes sense to get yourself in the best possible condition for the World Cup, but right now we're a mile behind the curve when it comes to skills.

Strange. That is exactly what went wrong in 2007.

Burkie1203

Clegg wrote: »

According to Gerry Thornley the Irish side hasn't done much actual rugby training over the last few months. It's mostly been heavy duty gym work. Of course, it makes sense to get yourself in the best possible condition for the World Cup, but right now we're a mile behind the curve when it comes to skills.

Well they got completely over powered on saturday so that gym work has been a waste of time

irishbucsfan

99problems1 wrote: »

Joe is hardly the type of coach to require much skill though. He's the Jose Mourinho of rugby.

Did you start watching rugby after 2013?

Podge_irl

Also, since when is being Jamie Roberts such a bad thing? Last I checked he was part of some pretty effective Welsh teams.

Shefwedfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Also, since when is being Jamie Roberts such a bad thing? Last I checked he was part of some pretty effective Welsh teams.

Fairly intelligent lad as well, qualified doctor

Didn’t he play for the lions? I should ask BOD

Shefwedfan

99problems1 wrote: »

Joe is hardly the type of coach to require much skill though. He's the Jose Mourinho of rugby.

He's turned Robbie Henshaw and Bundee Aki, two players who were wicked exciting runners at Connacht and turned them into battering rams.

Bundee has got a good career out of it, better than I thought for Ireland but Henshaw was seen as BODs heir and now he's just Jamie Roberts MKII.

So who do you think Eddie Jones is?

Mourinho wanted bigger and bigger and bigger players, got rid of the small guys....went nuts at press one day and was best friends with them next day

Doesn’t really sound like Joe to be honest

larchielads

Wonder if Simon Zebo and Donnacha Ryan are busy for next couple of months??

touts

larchielads wrote: »

Wonder if Simon Zebo and Donnacha Ryan are busy for next couple of months??

David Nucifora would rather see Ireland play 17 year olds and go out in the group stages than let Joe pick two world class players who rejected his rules.

thomond2006

David Nucifora would rather the IRFU use the leverage at its disposal to retain its players.

Burkie1203

touts wrote: »

David Nucifora would rather see Ireland play 17 year olds and go out in the group stages than let Joe pick two world class players who rejected his rules.

Ryan and Zebo are not world class players

larchielads

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Ryan and Zebo are not world class players

Well they aint much worse than the 15 that take the field

Christy42

Are we still on the "we lost badly so let's tilt entirely and demand random changes" stage?

Anything to be said for Gilroy?

Certainly things need to improve but random changes based on who played well in the last two weeks alone will never breed success. No other team makes mad changes when things start going wrong. England lost badly for most of last year. They still were not batty enough to drop Farrell.

99problems1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Did you start watching rugby after 2013?

Out of all the top teams, our game is the most structured, least requiring skills.

Who's more skillful, Sonny Bill or Robbie Henshaw for Ireland?

stephen_n

touts wrote: »

David Nucifora would rather see Ireland play 17 year olds and go out in the group stages than let Joe pick two world class players who rejected his rules.

Neither player is, was or ever would be world class. If Zebo was in Ireland he’d be squad player at best. Not sure Ryan would make the squad due to his age. So it would make no real difference if they were still here. Also what 17 year old is anywhere near the squad?

Kevski

Christy42 wrote: »

Anything to be said for Gilroy?

O’Halloran at FB too?

99problems1

Podge_irl wrote: »

Also, since when is being Jamie Roberts such a bad thing? Last I checked he was part of some pretty effective Welsh teams.

You've said it perfectly, effective.

Roberts role was to take first phase off set plays and run as hard as he could straight in front of him.

What's the difference between Gordon D'arcy and Jamie roberts? What do you think of when you think of both?

For me, D'arcy, I think of always breaking the gain line even on poor ball, dodging players with agility. Roberts? First phase off set piece being battered up the middle. I'd fear for Roberts and Henshaw with brain injuries considering the roles they are used in.

Faugheen

I kind of want Zebo to be called up now.

Moreso because the people who whine for the inclusion of an over-rated bang average player will be the same people who bitch and moan when the provinces start losing all their players to France and England.

You want to play for Ireland, you play in Ireland. Zebo knew the law of the land and decided to leave.

Jesus it really is an international window when his name pops up.

Podge_irl

99problems1 wrote: »

What's the difference between Gordon D'arcy and Jamie roberts? What do you think of when you think of both?

Honestly? Roberts was better at the role he ultimately ended up in. D'Arcy was a lot more fleet of foot initially but that disappeared and he became a pretty boshy centre. At his best in the latter half of his career he would step well to off-put the tackler so to take contact on his own terms, but he was generally taking contact. He was very good at it with pretty phenomenal leg drive but Roberts would bust a gain line better.

You are essentially advocating the opposite of the teams that are beating Ireland as the way to fix Ireland. Which is not, in and of itself, a bad idea but Wales and England have overpowered us in the forwards and used some effective strike running to power through us in the backs. The closest to a team that play a more traditional expansive game we've played is Scotland and we beat them in Murrayfield and they weren't that successful overall.

Former Former

Christy42 wrote: »

Are we still on the "we lost badly so let's tilt entirely and demand random changes" stage?

Anything to be said for Gilroy?

Certainly things need to improve but random changes based on who played well in the last two weeks alone will never breed success. No other team makes mad changes when things start going wrong. England lost badly for most of last year. They still were not batty enough to drop Farrell.

The stupid thing is, everyone played badly on Saturday.

Conservative Joe's pets who are only there on reputation and because they have central contracts, they played badly. Boards.ie favourites, they played badly. Guys who've never really featured before, they played badly. Starters, subs, forwards, backs. Munster LIGINDS, Leinster tossers, Ulster, Connacht. Irish born and bred, project players desecrating the jersey, granny rulers. All rubbish.

So I'm absolutely baffled by the idea that changing a few lads here and there would have made any difference. Whoever else you picked, I doubt the result would have been any different. Whatever is going wrong, it is not simply a personnel issue.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

According to Gerry Thornley the Irish side hasn't done much actual rugby training over the last few months. It's mostly been heavy duty gym work. Of course, it makes sense to get yourself in the best possible condition for the World Cup, but right now we're a mile behind the curve when it comes to skills.

Is this not exactly what happened in 2007?

Surely we aren't stupid enough to make the same mistakes again?

bilston

99problems1 wrote: »

Joe is hardly the type of coach to require much skill though. He's the Jose Mourinho of rugby.

He's turned Robbie Henshaw and Bundee Aki, two players who were wicked exciting runners at Connacht and turned them into battering rams.

Bundee has got a good career out of it, better than I thought for Ireland but Henshaw was seen as BODs heir and now he's just Jamie Roberts MKII.

Henshaw is still young and will hopefully get better, but I'd take a peak Jamie Roberts over him every day of the week.

Former Former

bilston wrote: »

Is this not exactly what happened in 2007?

Surely we aren't stupid enough to make the same mistakes again?

No-one really noticed it, but last week, Gordon D'Arcy gave the first real insight into 2007 that I've seen, and it wasn't over-training:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-glass-quarter-full-or-three-quarters-empty-either-way-i-m-worried-1.3992288

AbusesToilets

Former Former wrote: »

The stupid thing is, everyone played badly on Saturday.

Conservative Joe's pets who are only there on reputation and because they have central contracts, they played badly. Boards.ie favourites, they played badly. Guys who've never really featured before, they played badly. Starters, subs, forwards, backs. Munster LIGINDS, Leinster tossers, Ulster, Connacht. Irish born and bred, project players desecrating the jersey, granny rulers. All rubbish.

So I'm absolutely baffled by the idea that changing a few lads here and there would have made any difference. Whoever else you picked, I doubt the result would have been any different. Whatever is going wrong, it is not simply a personnel issue.

Well, as I see it there are two things going on. A seemingly outdated style of play from Joe; along with players who aren't that good and out of form being picked.

Perfect storm

Dog Botherer

Former Former wrote: »

No-one really noticed it, but last week, Gordon D'Arcy gave the first real insight into 2007 that I've seen, and it wasn't over-training:

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-glass-quarter-full-or-three-quarters-empty-either-way-i-m-worried-1.3992288

ROG and BOD discussed it a bit on Off The Ball a couple of weeks ago too, ROG spoke at length about the mentality of the squad in 07. It’s available as a podcast still, I’m sure.

EDIT: Jerry Flannery touches on it towards the end of this week’s House Of Rugby too.

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

The stupid thing is, everyone played badly on Saturday.

Conservative Joe's pets who are only there on reputation and because they have central contracts, they played badly. Boards.ie favourites, they played badly. Guys who've never really featured before, they played badly. Starters, subs, forwards, backs. Munster LIGINDS, Leinster tossers, Ulster, Connacht. Irish born and bred, project players desecrating the jersey, granny rulers. All rubbish.

So I'm absolutely baffled by the idea that changing a few lads here and there would have made any difference. Whoever else you picked, I doubt the result would have been any different. Whatever is going wrong, it is not simply a personnel issue.

It was a preseason game!!!!!!!!

99problems1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It was a preseason game!!!!!!!!

It was a test, just like the game v New Zealand.

salmocab

99problems1 wrote: »

It was a test, just like the game v New Zealand.

Now nobody believes that at all, they aren’t comparable at all

Faugheen

salmocab wrote: »

Now nobody believes that at all, they aren’t comparable at all

Losing this game by 12-15 points you can make the arguments for match practice etc.

Losing by over 40 there’s a problem. They’ve played one game more than us.

Sorry lads, but the excuses being made are baffling. Yes they get some leeway in terms of where they are in the schedule of games compared to England, but not 40 points worth.

99problems1

salmocab wrote: »

Now nobody believes that at all, they aren’t comparable at all

Of course they are!

1. There's ranking points at play.
2. There's world cup squad places up for grabs.
3. We have 2 more games left before we play a world cup, once every 4 years and the biggest tournament in a players lives.