Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

irishbucsfan

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Go back to the 6n. He persisted with Murray to "try and let him play his way into form". We got walloped by England and Cooney got 3 (?) Minutes. The next 2 weeks v Scotland and v Italy he got 9 and 3

Marmion got 9 min v Wales. It's a repeatable pattern.



Backrow and half back has been an issue this year and so has half back but there has been a reluctance to drop senior players.

Cronin has a poor game v Italy and he is off after 46 minutes.

There's a reluctance to drop senior players when their replacements aren't anywhere near their standard. There's no issue dropping players when their replacements are at a closer standard.

irishbucsfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I don't know if flat out pace is that vital for an open side. I think a ridiculously high level of fitness and a quick mind is more important. The ability to keep going and covering the whole pitch while reading the game to know where he needs to be is vital. I look at McCaw and now Cane for the ABs. Neither have or had to end speed but they tend to always be where they're needed to tackle, poach, secure the ball, take a pass etc.

In saying all that, I don't know if POM has that in him.

You need to be quick over the first 10 meters, particularly off the back of the scrum and lineout.

Former Former

thebaz wrote: »

Back in '07 when we nearly lost to Georgia , many said it didnt matter, and we know what happened after

No, they didn't. That wasn't a warm up game, and it absolutely did matter.

History being rewritten at an incredible pace here.

Burkie1203

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There's a reluctance to drop senior players when their replacements aren't anywhere near their standard. There's no issue dropping players when their replacements are at a closer standard.

Well I would much rather Marmion or Cooney played more in the 6n then Murray because Murray was awful.

What if Murray gets injured next week and misses the RWC. What then?

The place for Murray to try and regain form in Feb and March was the pro14. Not the 6n.

Mr Tickle

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You need to be quick over the first 10 meters, particularly off the back of the scrum and lineout.

To be fair, Pete did say in an interview recently that if he plays 7 they won't be changing his role in the lineout. I'd imagine the order of preference goes 2 x locks, POM, Beirne, Conan in terms of the jumpers as the lineout shortens.

irishbucsfan

Mr Tickle wrote: »

To be fair, Pete did say in an interview recently that if he plays 7 they won't be changing his role in the lineout. I'd imagine the order of preference goes 2 x locks, POM, Beirne, Conan in terms of the jumpers as the lineout shortens.

I'm talking about defensive lineouts, where you need someone with a decent amount of pace off the back of it

irishbucsfan

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Well I would much rather Marmion or Cooney played more in the 6n then Murray because Murray was awful.

What if Murray gets injured next week and misses the RWC. What then?

The place for Murray to try and regain form in Feb and March was the pro14. Not the 6n.

Well we completely disagree there so

molloyjh

Just to add a but of context here, although it's been said a few times already....

England lost 36-0 to SA in the pools in 2007 and made the final. France lost to Tonga, yes Tonga, in the pools in 2011 and made the final. Teams can turn form around relatively quickly and a single result in itself isn't always indicative of anything. We lost a warm-up game a month out from the RWC. Yes it was bad but we've more time to turn things around than either England or France did in those RWCs. It would be good if we could all keep that in mind.

Mr Tickle

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm talking about defensive lineouts, where you need someone with a decent amount of pace off the back of it

He's still likely to be jumping at the front. So someone else (Conan or Beirne) will be covering that role.

Burkie1203

molloyjh wrote: »

Just to add a but of context here, although it's been said a few times already....

England lost 36-0 to SA in the pools in 2007 and made the final. France lost to Tonga, yes Tonga, in the pools in 2011 and made the final. Teams can turn form around relatively quickly and a single result in itself isn't always indicative of anything. We lost a warm-up game a month out from the RWC. Yes it was bad but we've more time to turn things around than either England or France did in those RWCs. It would be good if we could all keep that in mind.

Wasn't there murmurs of a players revolt in both cases too

Former Former

Burkie1203 wrote: »

What if Murray gets injured next week and misses the RWC. What then?
.

If that happens, we pick Marmion and McGrath.

So giving John Cooney a couple of starts in the 6N would have made no difference either way.

aloooof

thebaz wrote: »

Everyone was saying he was going back home to NZ , and I remeber saying we should break the bank to keep him , or whatever it took to take over Ireland.

Everyone? Is this true, or are you just making this up?

thebaz wrote: »

Back in '07 when we nearly lost to Georgia , many said it didnt matter, and we know what happened after

You're definitely making this up. The Georgia game was a RWC group game.

irishbucsfan

Mr Tickle wrote: »

He's still likely to be jumping at the front. So someone else (Conan or Beirne) will be covering that role.

Yes, I’m not talking about POM specifically. I’m saying you need someone else to cover that role. Picking him at 7 makes that more difficult to fit together. I doubt it’ll ever happen in an important game barring a crisis

Burkie1203

Former Former wrote: »

If that happens, we pick Marmion and McGrath.

So giving John Cooney a couple of starts in the 6N would have made no difference either way.

Ah come on. Giving lads more then 3 or 7 minutes when the first choice players form is in the toilet is terrible management. The team suffers as a result.

AdamD

Whilst POM can be great at the breakdown and line out, he doesn't fulfill the core duties of either a 6 or a 7 and that's an issue. His form isn't worth building a back row around to make up for his deficiencies either.

Former Former

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Ah come on. Giving lads more then 3 or 7 minutes when the first choice players form is in the toilet is terrible management. The team suffers as a result.

I agree, just not in this specific case. Cooney isn't good enough, so hoping Murray would regain form was the right call.

Burkie1203

Former Former wrote: »

I agree, just not in this specific case. Cooney isn't good enough, so hoping Murray would regain form was the right call.

But maybe the team wouldn't suffer as much if after 50 or 55 minutes a functioning scrum half came off the bench

What if Murray is still struggling for form 60 minutes into a RWC QF were Ireland are getting minced by SA and the team suffers as a result.

aloooof

Burkie1203 wrote: »

But maybe the team wouldn't suffer as much if after 50 or 55 minutes a functioning scrum half came off the bench

What if Murray is still struggling for form 60 minutes into a RWC QF were Ireland are getting minced by SA and the team suffers as a result.

I think Joe may be more likely to bring on Marmion than bring on Cooney tho.

thebaz

aloooof wrote: »

Everyone? Is this true, or are you just making this up?



You're definitely making this up. The Georgia game was a RWC group game.

yeah - I just come here to lie - I'm fully aware it was a group game , and also that some people believed it was just a blimp , and everything would right against France and Argentina -

RobbieRuns

I think he will go with a Connacht half back partnership and Bundee and Henshaw to complete the line, if Henshaw not fit then Chris Farrell. Get a bit physical in the centres. I would also go with Addison at full back. Need a better last line of defence.

Ryan hopefully back in second row. I would also put Tadhg Beirne or Henderson at 6. Conan at 8 for certain, he needs his chance. Scannel at hooker as he also needs that chance. Furlong and McGrath propping.

Hopefully Earls can play if fit if not then Stockdale and Conway

Should be a real interesting selection for this game. Away games are always so difficult but we need a performance.

aloooof

thebaz wrote: »

yeah - I just come here to lie - I'm fully aware it was a group game , and also that some people believed it was just a blimp , and everything would right against France and Argentina -

Look, it was meant tongue-in-cheeck, but back to the Schmidt thing, I really don't remember it being the case that everyone was saying Schmidt was returning to NZ.

Kidney leaving was announced early April. A quick google shows an Irish Times article on 15th April saying "Schmidt gives strong hint his is keen on Ireland job". He was appointed by the end of April.

reg114

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Wasn't there murmurs of a players revolt in both cases too

In England's case I believe the senior players took control and ignored management directions and imposed their own style of play

Shefwedfan

The conversation about Murray

Everyone forget that Marmion was injured for majority of 6 nations and only close to fitness for wales game and he came on

The France match was good for sexton and Murray so no reason to drop fro Marmion

Not sure why everyone is so hung up on Cooney....Murray and Marmion are clearly number 1 & 2 for a number of years

It’s always been the plan or looks to be the plan to bring two 9’s

Zzippy

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why do you want a first team now?

We’ve a month until our first “competitive” game and then weeks until our actual first competitive game.

It would be a massive missed opportunity to get a ludicrously lucky draw like the one we’ve gotten and not use it to target peaking much later and fresher than all the other competitive sides. Our own history is the perfect example of just how huge that side of things can be.

We have Scotland first up. You don't think that will be an actual competitive game?

reg114

Zzippy wrote: »

We have Scotland first up. You don't think that will be an actual competitive game?

Scotland beat France at the weekend so they are no dummies

sydthebeat

reg114 wrote: »

Scotland beat France at the weekend so they are no dummies

and lost by 29 points the week before to the same opposition. Scotland are very much a homer team.

even as we are at the moment, i think out first choice 23 would beat Scotlands by about 7 points.

We have their number in the tight five, and our structured game squeezes the life out of theirs. They do not have the power across the field to do to us what england did, which makes it easier for us to defend outwards rather than inwards which caused us all kinds of trouble last weekend.

we have a gift of a group so we need to be on top form going into the competition for our first 2 games... steady hassle free for the last 2 allowing for R+R of our important guys.... and then give it all mid October.

Shefwedfan

reg114 wrote: »

Scotland beat France at the weekend so they are no dummies

The bits I seen Scotland didn’t look great, France away from home can be dodgy

In the first half France looked great, Scotland won second half but as far as I could see France emptied the bench....

They are more dependant on Russell than we are on Sexton

Shefwedfan

Zzippy wrote: »

We have Scotland first up. You don't think that will be an actual competitive game?

the Scotland game is nearly a month away and I think that’s what poster meant

Zzippy

Shefwedfan wrote: »

the Scotland game is nearly a month away and I think that’s what poster meant

He clearly referred to the Scotland game as "competitive" and clarified that he didn't mean competitive by referring to a game weeks later (presumably the QF) as the actual first competitive game. That's what I was querying.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We’ve a month until our first “competitive” game and then weeks until our actual first competitive game.

swiwi_

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nah I don’t see it having any effect whatsoever. Neither would I think winning every game by 50 points. There’s a small window to get the entire thing right and it exists entirely in mid-late October. That’s not to say I’m confident they’ll do that, but there’s only one game between now and the knockouts that is any real challenge. If they get past that hurdle (which of course they should) then it’s all about putting together a full performance in the knockouts. That’s miles off yet, and I don’t think a nothing game in August against an equally weakened and distracted team has any bearing on that whatsoever.

Except you also got thrashed in the 6N.

I agree that the only thing that matters is qualifying from your group and defeating either SA or NZ in a quarter final but a string of wallopings in the lead up would be an unusual manner of going about it.

Webbs

Wales:
Hallam Amos; Owen Lane, Scott Williams, Owen Watkin, Steff Evans; Jarrod Evans, Aled Davies;
Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Samson Lee, Adam Beard, Bradley Davies, Aaron Shingler, James Davies, Josh Navidi.

Replacements: Elliot Dee, Rob Evans, Leon Brown, Jake Ball, Ross Moriarty, Tomos Williams, Rhys Patchell, Jonah Holmes.

All change for Wales and a couple of uncapped players given a run. Wales dont usually perform when they put out teams like this, thinking especially of Autumn Internationals in past. Be interesting to see what cohesion this team has considering they have been in camp for a while now.

thebaz

Webbs wrote: »

All change for Wales and a couple of uncapped players given a run. Wales dont usually perform when they put out teams like this, thinking especially of Autumn Internationals in past. Be interesting to see what cohesion this team has considering they have been in camp for a while now.

Not sure what the game will really tell us - hopefully builds up confidence and planning for our weaker group games

molloyjh

If POM is starting this week it will be interesting to see who starts at 6 next week. Will it be CJ with Conan at 8 or Rhys with one of CJ or Conan at 8. I cant see POM starting 3 in a row.

wittycynic

Webbs wrote: »

Wales:
Hallam Amos; Owen Lane, Scott Williams, Owen Watkin, Steff Evans; Jarrod Evans, Aled Davies;
Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Samson Lee, Adam Beard, Bradley Davies, Aaron Shingler, James Davies, Josh Navidi.

Replacements: Elliot Dee, Rob Evans, Leon Brown, Jake Ball, Ross Moriarty, Tomos Williams, Rhys Patchell, Jonah Holmes.

All change for Wales and a couple of uncapped players given a run. Wales dont usually perform when they put out teams like this, thinking especially of Autumn Internationals in past. Be interesting to see what cohesion this team has considering they have been in camp for a while now.

Hard to think we'll learn much from Wales B v Ireland B either way. The return leg in Dublin will probably be our only chance to see if some of the issues have been somewhat righted ahead of the World Cup.

reg114

sydthebeat wrote: »

and lost by 29 points the week before to the same opposition. Scotland are very much a homer team.

even as we are at the moment, i think out first choice 23 would beat Scotlands by about 7 points.

We have their number in the tight five, and our structured game squeezes the life out of theirs. They do not have the power across the field to do to us what england did, which makes it easier for us to defend outwards rather than inwards which caused us all kinds of trouble last weekend.

we have a gift of a group so we need to be on top form going into the competition for our first 2 games... steady hassle free for the last 2 allowing for R+R of our important guys.... and then give it all mid October.

But you're making the assumption that we will play better than we have played all year in a world cup match where historically we have been found wanting except against the Australia game were Stephen Ferris had a field day choke tackling the life out of them. Given the poor 6 nations we had coupled with an average performance against italy and a devastating scoreline against England , it was be very foolish to expect us to beat the Scots. Factor in the fact we always start tournaments slowly too. Id love to be proven wrong but we've had a shocking year by Joe's standards, just because we should be better than we are doesnt mean we will be.

Former Former

The misery is being unbearable.

Three things I believe;
1. We are in a real spot of bother.
2. We do not have the quality and depth of players to make wholesale changes.
3. There is no one better or more qualified to fix this than Joe.

sydthebeat

reg114 wrote: »

But you're making the assumption that we will play better than we have played all year in a world cup match where historically we have been found wanting except against the Australia game were Stephen Ferris had a field day choke tackling the life out of them. Given the poor 6 nations we had coupled with an average performance against italy and a devastating scoreline against England , it was be very foolish to expect us to beat the Scots. Factor in the fact we always start tournaments slowly too. Id love to be proven wrong but we've had a shocking year by Joe's standards, just because we should be better than we are doesnt mean we will be.

i dont give two sh!ts about historically, that has no impact on this competition.

Its a given that we played poorly during this years 6N...yet we still beat Scotland by 9 points in Murrayfield !!! almost ironically with POM as MOTM....
and this during "joes shocking year"

so as of today, i still expect to beat Scotland on the first day in japan. Ive seen nothing from Scotland in any game against us over the last few years to think they have a style that can cause us anything like the same pressure that England and wales can on their day.

Like i said, i expect us to win, and by about 7 points... i dont expect it to be overly comfortable, but i also dont expect us to get a hiding from them

reg114

Irish fans are dismissing Scotland as a threat which is amusing, I notice nobody is mentioning Japan here. remember the Japanese beat the Boks last time round in one of the biggest shocks in the game. The Japanese will be up for this bigtime given they are the hosts. They play a very fast running rugby style game and offload at will. Its very feasible that Ireland could end up third in their group.

ClanofLams

reg114 wrote: »

Irish fans are dismissing Scotland as a threat which is amusing, I notice nobody is mentioning Japan here. remember the Japanese beat the Boks last time round in one of the biggest shocks in the game. The Japanese will be up for this bigtime given they are the hosts. They play a very fast running rugby style game and offload at will. Its very feasible that Ireland could end up third in their group.

Ireland are 100-1 on to reach the quarter finals with the bookmakers. Shocks happen naturally but it’s simply not ‘very feasible’ Ireland don’t make quarter finals, it’s extremely unlikely.

sydthebeat

reg114 wrote: »

Its very feasible that Ireland could end up third in their group.

youll get 18/1 in the bookies for ireland not to get out of the group....

so if you think thats a "very feasible" situation to happen... off you go and make hay.

also, no one is "dismissing" the scotland threat.
Expecting an Ireland win is not dismissing their threat, its weight up all evidence and coming to a conclusion.

thomond2006

ClanofLams wrote: »

Ireland are 100-1 on to reach the quarter finals with the bookmakers. Shocks happen naturally but it’s simply not ‘very feasible’ Ireland don’t make quarter finals, it’s extremely unlikely.

Tell me which bookie is offering this! :pac:

reg114

sydthebeat wrote: »

i dont give two sh!ts about historically, that has no impact on this competition.

Its a given that we played poorly during this years 6N...yet we still beat Scotland by 9 points in Murrayfield !!! almost ironically with POM as MOTM....
and this during "joes shocking year"

so as of today, i still expect to beat Scotland on the first day in japan. Ive seen nothing from Scotland in any game against us over the last few years to think they have a style that can cause us anything like the same pressure that England and wales can on their day.

Like i said, i expect us to win, and by about 7 points... i dont expect it to be overly comfortable, but i also dont expect us to get a hiding from them

The world cup has been a graveyard for ireland teams' ambitions to reach beyond the quarters which we have never managed. So i would absolutely hold the view that Ireland's state of mind entering this world cup will have a huge impact on the competition.

Given our form I would expect us to lose against Wales in Cardiff for Gatland's final game at home in charge. So then you have two losses on the bounce. We will face Wales in the final warm up game at home, how will we air with our confidence on the floor ? This is a perfect storm. As I said I hope im way off but the signs are poor.

Shefwedfan

reg114 wrote: »

Irish fans are dismissing Scotland as a threat which is amusing, I notice nobody is mentioning Japan here. remember the Japanese beat the Boks last time round in one of the biggest shocks in the game. The Japanese will be up for this bigtime given they are the hosts. They play a very fast running rugby style game and offload at will. Its very feasible that Ireland could end up third in their group.

I didn't see any fan dismissing Scotland

reg114

sydthebeat wrote: »

youll get 18/1 in the bookies for ireland not to get out of the group....

so if you think thats a "very feasible" situation to happen... off you go and make hay.

also, no one is "dismissing" the scotland threat.
Expecting an Ireland win is not dismissing their threat, its weight up all evidence and coming to a conclusion.

and Japan ?

sydthebeat

thomond2006 wrote: »

Tell me which bookie is offering this! :pac:

paddy power

100/1 on

reg114

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I didn't see any fan dismissing Scotland

Predicting an irish victory by X number of points over Scotland is dismissing our Celtic cousins. Scotland arent world beaters but neither are we. I think at the moment that game could arguably go either way , but we would need to turn up.

sydthebeat

reg114 wrote: »

and Japan ?

and japan what?

reg114

sydthebeat wrote: »

paddy power

100/1 on

Watch those odds shorten after Saturday

sydthebeat

reg114 wrote: »

Predicting an irish victory by X number of points over Scotland is dismissing our Celtic cousins. .

no its not.


if you predict a 1 point victory to scotland, are you dismissing ireland?

reg114

reg114 wrote: »

Irish fans are dismissing Scotland as a threat which is amusing, I notice nobody is mentioning Japan here. remember the Japanese beat the Boks last time round in one of the biggest shocks in the game. The Japanese will be up for this bigtime given they are the hosts. They play a very fast running rugby style game and offload at will. Its very feasible that Ireland could end up third in their group.

You'll make a bit of money selling that on betfair