Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Buer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

That is completely disregarding that when our hand was forced against Argentina and we had to play Madigan, we also had lost, POC, POM, SOB and Payne then lost Bowe after 10 minutes.

That's 5 players who would have been part of the leadership group with over 200 caps between them. Not sure we'd have won that game even with Sexton on the field.

I do think that Carbery should be getting better exposure.

But using Madigan as an example is just not applicable here.

It's not disregarding that. It's just not part of the point.

Madigan did not have sufficient exposure to be comfortable as Irish starting outhalf with anything approaching consistency in the event of Sexton being injured. I don't think anyone is really going to argue against that too much. He had never started a game against top tier oppostion prior to the RWC. That was putting him at a significant disadvantage regardless of there being zero or a dozen injuries.

Carbery currently has a very similar level of exposure as we approach the next RWC having only started one game (against Australia). It's all well and good getting 55 minutes off the bench but the level of pressure, expectation and preparation is very different if you're being named to start in such a game and Carbery needs to get comfortable with that.

thomond2006

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What good will playing against a SA team that the Leinster kids will put 50 on by half time?

He needs time with Murray as well, they haven't had much game time together at all......especially as Murray is out of form

Time with Murray for what though? The 6N is gone.

Buer

aloooof wrote: »

Is it absolutely definitive that Sexton needs game time tho? I think I remember pre-Lions 2015 he was in pretty poor form, but was able to turn that around pretty quickly. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

To be honest, I don't really think so. He was pretty good in his 20 minutes against Scotland aside from one very poor up and under. He looked sharp in his general play, making a good covering tackle, reading an intercept and distributing well.

Richie Murphy spoke about how he doesn't need game time to get up to speed in yesterday's press conference so I can only imagine it's about trying to get things to click more with Murray (or taking pressure off Murray right now). There's also the possibility of yet another midfield change so perhaps they want more continuity there.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Anyone who is talking about throwing a 6 nations which Ireland could still win is an.....an't get another yellow card so I wont say

Also from IRFU point of view, they get more money the further up the table they get, I doubt they are telling Joe to throw the next couple of games.....

Who has said anything like this?? Starting Carbery doesn't equate to throwing a game.

jonok28

Buer wrote: »

To be honest, I don't really think so. He was pretty good in his 20 minutes against Scotland aside from one very poor up and under. He looked sharp in his general play, making a good covering tackle, reading an intercept and distributing well.

Richie Murphy spoke about how he doesn't need game time to get up to speed in yesterday's press conference so I can only imagine it's about trying to get things to click more with Murray (or taking pressure off Murray right now). There's also the possibility of yet another midfield change so perhaps they want more continuity there.

I'd play Sexton against Italy and have Carbery play vs France, no point in putting Sexton out against France when the 6 nations title is out of our grasp, they target him every time and look to take him out so put in Carbery who needs the experience against teams better than Italy, Sexton just needs the reps and Italy would be the perfect chance for him and Murray to get game time under their belts.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

. If we want to be real about this, it’s hardly reasonable to suggest a 23 year old out half with just a single season as first choice for a province, is ever going to be in position to do much more for us than Mads did 4 years ago who at the time had 3 years on where Carbery is now.
.

2014, Handre Pollard, 20 years of age, starts 5 of the 6 rugby championship games for South Africa and 3 further internationals that year... in his debut season where he had only 4 starts for the Bulls at 10.

the following season he has 7 appearance in the RWC15.

i think its very reasonable to suggest that a 23 year old Joe Carbery can do more after a full season at 10 than Madigan did for us 4 years ago..... and i think its wrong not to be giving him as much exposure pre RWC 19 as possible.

Are Ireland giving sexton and murray game time in order to get them up to speed for the business end of the HC ?? because i dont see any other reason, we will learn nothing by playing sexton in this italy game, and probaly french game to.

the way sexton and murray are currently playing we could easily get beaten by wales on the final day....... so who really cares whether we finish 3rd or 4th at this stage?

Shefwedfan

It seems to be back to the bad old days.....doesn't matter what is good or bad for Ireland as long as the 10 playing is from the province I support.

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It seems to be back to the bad old days.....doesn't matter what is good or bad for Ireland as long as the 10 playing is from the province I support.

i honestly dont think ANYONE is claiming that....... quite the opposite actually

Shefwedfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

Time with Murray for what though? The 6N is gone.

After two games the 6 nations is gone?????



The more points and better position the more money for the IRFU....

Shefwedfan

aloooof wrote: »

Who has said anything like this?? Starting Carbery doesn't equate to throwing a game.

As per my post, which you forgot to quote the rest of it, if you play Carberry against Italy then you play him for rest of tournament.


I did not say playing Carberry was throwing the tournament. But if you have the best 9/10 in the World why would you not play them against Italy/Frace/Wales?



Plenty of people have posted on this forum about throwing the 6 natiosn because the WC is all it is about..... I said before the start or tournament and I am saying it now the 6 nations is massive, the World Cup will look after itself.....

Mr Tickle

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As per my post, which you forgot to quote the rest of it, if you play Carberry against Italy then you play him for rest of tournament.

I'm struggling to get my head around this. Can you please explain it and try not to be wrong?

Shefwedfan

Mr Tickle wrote: »

I'm struggling to get my head around this. Can you please explain it and try not to be wrong?

Sexton has no game time, he played against Munster at Christmas and then against England and 20 mins against Scotland.....someone else posted the amount of minutes but low



If he doesn't play against Italy and get a good run out you expect him to start against France with how many minutes in the last 2-3 months?


Carberry has been playing regular all that time including a good run out against England and majority of Scotland match.


If Carberry starts the Italy match he will get 60-70 minutes so Sexton will get a max of 20 mins.


No matter how awful France are they always turn up and perform against Ireland. If you have Sexton with less than 200 mins or Carberry coming into game with good game time it doesn't make sense to start Sexton who will be ring rusty. If he starts against France then he starts against Wales.....


This was even pointed out before the tournament started that Joe would have to play Sexton for the Italy match because leaving him sitting on sidelines for a month is not great prep for a big game

thomond2006

Shefwedfan wrote: »

After two games the 6 nations is gone?????



The more points and better position the more money for the IRFU....

Yes, it's gone. The 0-5 loss to England ended our chance or more correctly England picking up ten points in the first two games. England might lose to Wales but they won't lose to Scotland or Italy who they play in Twickenham.

Mr Tickle

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Sexton has no game time, he played against Munster at Christmas and then against England and 20 mins against Scotland.....someone else posted the amount of minutes but low



If he doesn't play against Italy and get a good run out you expect him to start against France with how many minutes in the last 2-3 months?


Carberry has been playing regular all that time including a good run out against England and majority of Scotland match.


If Carberry starts the Italy match he will get 60-70 minutes so Sexton will get a max of 20 mins.


No matter how awful France are they always turn up and perform against Ireland. If you have Sexton with less than 200 mins or Carberry coming into game with good game time it doesn't make sense to start Sexton who will be ring rusty. If he starts against France then he starts against Wales.....


This was even pointed out before the tournament started that Joe would have to play Sexton for the Italy match because leaving him sitting on sidelines for a month is not great prep for a big game

Sexton has come straight back from injury plenty of times though. regularly with little to no game time.

This game is where younger guys can prove themselves. Not a whole team of subs but maybe 7 across the 23.

Buer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This stuff about Joey needs time at 10, he is playing week in week out with Munster at 10 with the Irish 9, he is getting loads of experience. The issue going into the last WC was Madigan was not playing 10 at international or club level. He was playing 13 or 15 or bench.

Actually, in the 2 seasons approaching the RWC, Madigan had 17 starts for Leinster at outhalf. Carbery currently has 13 between last season and this season. He'll probably finish the season with around 18 so similar enough numbers.

There's a gulf between starting for a province and starting a test match though. Provincial starts are just a stepping stone.

To be honest, the ship has probably sailed on Carbery being properly prepared for the RWC at this point if called upon in a knockout game and it was always going to be an uphill task with the Jackson situation screwing everything up.

He's still capable of delivering some big moments though and will hopefully manage things if and when the time comes.

aloooof

Shefwedfan wrote: »

As per my post, which you forgot to quote the rest of it, if you play Carberry against Italy then you play him for rest of tournament.

You're stating this as if it's fact when we don't know if it is.

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Sexton needs game time prior to France, he can play for Leinster next weekend.

I really hope we won't be having the same conversations to 4 years ago later this year. Sexton is almost certain to be unavailable at some stage during the RWC.

The reason we have this problem is that Sexton is very rarely unavailable to Ireland.

thomond2006

stephen_n wrote: »

The reason we have this problem is that Sexton is very rarely unavailable to Ireland.

I'm not talking about being injured for weeks. I'm talking about going off injured during games. I think it's reasonable to expect a scenario where we'll need the backup 10 to play in a crunch situation.

Wegians89

Think there’s a slight chance carbery could drop out of the 23 altogether. Sexton needs to start to get back to his best, and a chance to put carty on the bench. Best game to give carty some minutes.

While it’s a good idea to give carbery as many minutes before the World Cup, you don’t want to be left in a situation where Sexton and carbery are injured and carty/ Byrne have flip all minutes between them

Eod100

Is Ireland team out today? Or tomorrow cause match isn't til Sunday?

Wegians89

A running theme post rwc 2015 was to have three layers of depth in each position,so developing a third choice at 10 wouldn’t be a bad idea in my opinion. Carberys 60 minutes against Scotland will stand to him way more than if he played 80 against Italy. Id rather he got game time against France/ wales.

stephen_n

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm not talking about being injured for weeks. I'm talking about going off injured during games. I think it's reasonable to expect a scenario where we'll need the backup 10 to play in a crunch situation.

We already know Carberry is capeable of closing out games. He’s nowhere near Sexton in his ability to control games but can certainly do a job at international level. What failed us against Argentina was missing both Sexton and Payne at the same time. I think the Scotland game showed that those disconnects can still happen, but that we also seem far better prepared. Even when missing our first choice 10 & 13 at the same time. The overall depth is much stronger now.

Mr Tickle

Wegians89 wrote: »

Think there’s a slight chance carbery could drop out of the 23 altogether. Sexton needs to start to get back to his best, and a chance to put carty on the bench. Best game to give carty some minutes.

While it’s a good idea to give carbery as many minutes before the World Cup, you don’t want to be left in a situation where Sexton and carbery are injured and carty/ Byrne have flip all minutes between them

I tend to agree. Ideally i'd like to see Carbery and Carty show that they can take care of Italy.
But failing that Sexton could start with Carty on the bench. Then give Carbery a start against France.

Buer

Wegians89 wrote: »

Think there’s a slight chance carbery could drop out of the 23 altogether. Sexton needs to start to get back to his best, and a chance to put carty on the bench. Best game to give carty some minutes.

I've a sneaking suspicion that you're right. I'd expect Connacht to be without him this weekend whether he's in the 23 or as cover. I think his playing of the conditions and pragmatism against the Cheetahs will have made Schmidt sit up.

We'll know very shortly anyway given Connacht will name their 23 in the next hour.

Shefwedfan

Buer wrote: »

Actually, in the 2 seasons approaching the RWC, Madigan had 17 starts for Leinster at outhalf. Carbery currently has 13 between last season and this season. He'll probably finish the season with around 18 so similar enough numbers.

There's a gulf between starting for a province and starting a test match though. Provincial starts are just a stepping stone.

To be honest, the ship has probably sailed on Carbery being properly prepared for the RWC at this point if called upon in a knockout game and it was always going to be an uphill task with the Jackson situation screwing everything up.

He's still capable of delivering some big moments though and will hopefully manage things if and when the time comes.

Madigan was not starting in the big games at 10, once it got to Europe and the big game he was in centre or 15


So far Carberry has started at 10 in home and away match's against French and English opposition. Started at 10 against Leinster twice



Without injury will have a Qtr and a semi probably in heneiken at least starting at 10, will also have a semi in Pro14 at 10 and maybe a final


All while hopefully standing beside the Ireland starting 9



Could Madigan say the same before the WC?

whatawaster

Starting Carbery against France might be the plan, and Sexton is starting here because we don't want him to go 4/5 weeks without a game.

Personally, i would go:

---

Kilcoyne

---

Cronin

---

Porter

---

---

Ryan

---

Roux

---

----O'Mahony----Conan

---

O'Brien

---

---

Murray

---

Carbery

---

---

Aki

---

Henshaw

---

--Stockdale

---

Larmour

---

Earls

---

Rest the front row and give Carbery and Larmour starts

Former Former

I don't see any logic in giving Carty minutes tbh, (unless Joe thinks he could actually overtake Carbery).

Richie_Rich89

Former Former wrote: »

I don't see any logic in giving Carty minutes tbh, (unless Joe thinks he could actually overtake Carbery).

The logic is that if no. 1 or no. 2 pick up an injury, no. 3 isn't coming in cold in a big World Cup match. It's not that difficult to work out.

Buer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Madigan was not starting in the big games at 10, once it got to Europe and the big game he was in centre or 15

So far Carberry has started at 10 in home and away match's against French and English opposition. Started at 10 against Leinster twice

Without injury will have a Qtr and a semi probably in heneiken at least starting at 10, will also have a semi in Pro14 at 10 and maybe a final

All while hopefully standing beside the Ireland starting 9

Could Madigan say the same before the WC?

Grand. That doesn't change my point at all though.

d-gal

Marmion starts for connacht with Blade on the bench

No Roux, dillane, carty, farrell or Aki involved.

Farrell and Carty both deserve minutes against Italy. They’ve been outstanding this year, especially Farrell

Buer

d-gal wrote: »

Marmion starts for connacht with Blade on the bench

No Roux, dillane, carty, farrell or Aki involved.

Farrell and Carty both deserve minutes against Italy. They’ve been outstanding this year, especially Farrell

From what I can see, Blade is the only person to be named in a provincial team from the three sides named thus far so I don't think we can read too much into who hasn't been named in a provincial side at this point.

There are potentially 10 guys not playing provincial rugby or test rugby this weekend.

d-gal

Buer wrote: »

From what I can see, Blade is the only person to be named in a provincial team from the three sides named thus far so I don't think we can read too much into who hasn't been named in a provincial side at this point.

There are potentially 10 guys not playing provincial rugby or test rugby this weekend.

True but still hoping Carty and Farrell to get game time. Carty needs it 100% since he now looks like 3rd choice for Ireland. Farrell less likely but on form this season (and last) he deserves a cap

Former Former

d-gal wrote: »

True but still hoping Carty and Farrell to get game time. Carty needs it 100% since he now looks like 3rd choice for Ireland. Farrell less likely but on form this season (and last) he deserves a cap

Deserving a cap is an odd one because it's a zero sum game. T Farrell playing means two from C Farrell, Henshaw and Aki do not. I'm not sure he's earned that. Likewise Carty has been playing well but every minute he plays is a minute Carbery does not.

Shefwedfan

d-gal wrote: »

True but still hoping Carty and Farrell to get game time. Carty needs it 100% since he now looks like 3rd choice for Ireland. Farrell less likely but on form this season (and last) he deserves a cap

The 6 nations is too important for preparation for WC. Carberry needs more time than Carty.



Farrell in reality if not going to replace any of the 4 current centre's in the WC squad


If Joe wants a look at them then a warm up in WC will suffice.

Wegians89

Former Former wrote: »

Deserving a cap is an odd one because it's a zero sum game. T Farrell playing means two from C Farrell, Henshaw and Aki do not. I'm not sure he's earned that. Likewise Carty has been playing well but every minute he plays is a minute Carbery does not.

Both henshaw and c Farrell were injury doubts last week, both/ one might still be carrying knocks. Personally don’t think Tom Farrell will be capped but as said before the Italian game is the game to throw people in for their debutes. The idea of dropping henshaw to 15 might also cross Schmidt’s mind leaving 13 a straight shoot out between Farrell’s ( Chris most likely).

20 odd minutes against Italy would be worth so much more to carty than to carbery. Carbery has moved past the likes of Italy, he needs the next level of challenge. Ideally if Sexton had been fit since Christmas or if the Italian game was at a different round in the six nations, you’d have carbery start and carty bench against Italy.

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The 6 nations is too important for preparation for WC..

The 6 nations is gone at this stage........ finishing anywhere between 2nd and 5th is going to make little difference to us.

if anything, continuing without giving minutes to back ups, AND still playing poorly, will do the opposite of preparation for the RWC.

Mr Tickle

Former Former wrote: »

Deserving a cap is an odd one because it's a zero sum game. T Farrell playing means two from C Farrell, Henshaw and Aki do not. I'm not sure he's earned that. Likewise Carty has been playing well but every minute he plays is a minute Carbery does not.

It might be worth giving Aki a week off. He's played a lot of minutes for both club and country. Also Henshaw might get some time at full back.

Theoretically you could start Henshaw and Chris in the centre and bench Tom.

Though unless we start Larmour or Conway at 15 we'd be light on wing cover.

Shefwedfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

The 6 nations is gone at this stage........ finishing anywhere between 2nd and 5th is going to make little difference to us.

if anything, continuing without giving minutes to back ups, AND still playing poorly, will do the opposite of preparation for the RWC.

The 6 nations is the money generator for the IRFU. They pay for a lot of players and also the provinces.


Their is a huge difference in revenue to the IRFU.


They are giving lots of minutes to players....Carberry/Roux etc have all got good time on pitch.



Throwing in random players who won't even make the WC squad is pointless



P.S they had 1 bad game.....

Shefwedfan

Mr Tickle wrote: »

It might be worth giving Aki a week off. He's played a lot of minutes for both club and country. Also Henshaw might get some time at full back.

Theoretically you could start Henshaw and Chris in the centre and bench Tom.

Though unless we start Larmour or Conway at 15 we'd be light on wing cover.

T Farrell is not going to be in the WC squad. Why would they bench him?


They have loads of players who will be in WC squad and need time on pitch.

case885

Shefwedfan wrote:

Their is a huge difference in revenue to the IRFU.

What's the difference out of interest?

Wegians89

Shefwedfan wrote: »

T Farrell is not going to be in the WC squad. Why would they bench him?


They have loads of players who will be in WC squad and need time on pitch.

While there’s for obvious clear front running centers, 3 of them have already been hit with injuries in the six nations alone. The World Cup squad might be 31 players but you will need more than that. Few injuries in key positions could mean the likes of roux, carty, Tom Farrell, Ross Byrne, Adam Byrne, sweetnam etc could be included in a quarter final match day 23.

Some of them have already got capped and all of them have spent time with squads and are probably working with Schmidt but I’d rather a player got his first cap against a pretty poor Italian side than in a World Cup game with a huge amount riding on it.

Mr Tickle

Shefwedfan wrote: »

T Farrell is not going to be in the WC squad. Why would they bench him?


They have loads of players who will be in WC squad and need time on pitch.

Isn't he? all of our centres bar himself and Aki either are currently or have in the last month been injured.
even if we put him as the 6th choice (Aki, Chris, Henshaw, Addison, Ringrose in no particular order) and we travel with three then he's very much in the mix.

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The 6 nations is the money generator for the IRFU..

whats the revenue difference between finishing 2nd and 5th?

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They are giving lots of minutes to players....Carberry/Roux etc have all got good time on pitch.

nah, there literally hasnt been ONE selection yet that wasnt injury enforced.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Throwing in random players who won't even make the WC squad is pointless

but selecting reserves players who absolutely WILL be in the RWC squad and WILL be required at significant periods is absolutely not pointless.... which is what i at least am calling for.

Shefwedfan

case885 wrote: »

What's the difference out of interest?

This is from a few years ago, the pot is now 15 million but I think 1 million is kept in resere for a Grand slam and if no Grand Slam the 1 mil gets spilt up between all the unions





Grand Slam: £5.5m
1st: £4.5m
2nd: £3.3m
3rd: £2.3m
4th: £1.8m
5th: £1.3m
6th: £800,000


2 million is a few quid

thegreycity

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is from a few years ago, the pot is now 15 million but I think 1 million is kept in resere for a Grand slam and if no Grand Slam the 1 mil gets spilt up between all the unions

I didn't realise there was a financial incentive to teams stopping a GS.

troyzer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is from a few years ago, the pot is now 15 million but I think 1 million is kept in resere for a Grand slam and if no Grand Slam the 1 mil gets spilt up between all the unions





Grand Slam: £5.5m
1st: £4.5m
2nd: £3.3m
3rd: £2.3m
4th: £1.8m
5th: £1.3m
6th: £800,000


2 million is a few quid

2 million is enough to pay for several of Munster's 487 South African imports.

RugbyLover123

Former Former wrote: »

Deserving a cap is an odd one because it's a zero sum game. T Farrell playing means two from C Farrell, Henshaw and Aki do not. I'm not sure he's earned that. Likewise Carty has been playing well but every minute he plays is a minute Carbery does not.

I honestly don’t see what C Farrell brings to the game that T Farrell can’t. Bar the cap V Wales last year TF has completely outperformed CF for a season and a half. So to say he hasn’t earned it is ridiculous.

Former Former

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

I honestly don’t see what C Farrell brings to the game that T Farrell can’t. Bar the cap V Wales last year TF has completely outperformed CF for a season and a half. So to say he hasn’t earned it is ridiculous.

Considering C Farrell got injured against Wales and missed nine months, I'd be concerned if T Farrell hadn't outperformed him.

I'm not saying TF is a bad player but that's what some people seem to be reading. It would be great if all good performers could be rewarded with caps but that's not how it works. You play well for your province, you get called up to the squad. That's what TF deserves and it's what he got. Some players move up to the next level, some don't. We'll have to see what happens with TF.

If he deserves to actually break into the team ahead of CF and Aki/Henshaw, then he'll get that too.

Shefwedfan

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

I honestly don’t see what C Farrell brings to the game that T Farrell can’t. Bar the cap V Wales last year TF has completely outperformed CF for a season and a half. So to say he hasn’t earned it is ridiculous.

The problem all the Connacht players have is the quality of opposition isn’t great to be compared to what the other 3 are playing against

Leinster have played the kids the majority of the Pro14 and are miles ahead of everyone else

It will great if they can get into heneiken cup next year and show what they can do

bilston

Any journos tweeting rumoured teams yet?

Usually at this stage in the tournament the team is more or less written in stone, but this selection could go anyway.