Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

sydthebeat

Former Former wrote: »

Apart from the lazy and complete bollocks assertion that Aki gets more stick because he's not white. That p*sses me off.

the FB reaction to him over stander shows that actually, all things being equal, his colour was the reason he got more stick.

Shefwedfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

the FB reaction to him over stander shows that actually, all things being equal, his colour was the reason he got more stick.

Facebook? :P


Some closed rugby groups on facebook are good.Apart from that it is just a s**t storms of idiots with no idea what rugby is.....most are just on it because they can spew out c**p



No real rugby site or rugby fans had any issue with Aki....after that nobody can do anything about the gobs**t in this world

sydthebeat

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Facebook? :P


Some closed rugby groups on facebook are good.Apart from that it is just a s**t storms of idiots with no idea what rugby is.....most are just on it because they can spew out c**p



No real rugby site or rugby fans had any issue with Aki....after that nobody can do anything about the gobs**t in this world

absolutely, but thats not what Thornley was referring to.... there was a marked difference in reaction to Aki qualifying over stander and even Roux...... even if it was in the sewer of FB

errlloyd

I thought it would be worse than it was.

I think with things like racism and sexism people deny it's existence unless it explicit (like the ABs assistant coach statement). If a person says "I don't think Aki should play for Ireland" - when they did not have those issues with Stander or Payne it doesn't definitely mean they're racist. But if lots of people do it you can infer there is an element of race contributing.

ClanofLams

Former Former wrote: »

Apart from the lazy and complete bollocks assertion that Aki gets more stick because he's not white. That p*sses me off.

He definitely got more stick when first selected and got it from all sides. Peter O’Mahony said it here at the time

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DbW2WRErq_g

ionadnapokot

ClanofLams wrote: »

He definitely got more stick when first selected and got it from all sides. Peter O’Mahony said it here at the time

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DbW2WRErq_g

Yes. Of course he did. Foster comments were a disgrace.
Its a well written article with allot of sensible and positive points. Nothing to get upset about or drag this forum down that horrible road.
I reiterate...Come on Ireland!!

Former Former

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? There was definitely more furore when he started playing for Ireland compared to Stander. The comments from Foster are surely alluding to his race.

The fact that the only example of this is a nobody from the far side of the world just about sums it up.

A lot of people objected to Aki qualifying, but what happened was people on the other side decided that this was on basis of his race. Classic social media debating technique, but absolute nonsense.

errlloyd

Former Former wrote: »

The fact that the only example of this is a nobody from the far side of the world just about sums it up.

A lot of people objected to Aki qualifying, but what happened was people on the other side decided that this was on basis of his race. Classic social media debating technique, but absolute nonsense.

There was the Ultimate Rugby post too.

Former Former

errlloyd wrote: »

There was the Ultimate Rugby post too.

Again, blown up to be way more than it was and again, some idiot (in New Zealand again) posting a meme on an Insta feed isn't proving that there was a 'furore' of racial hatred, certainly not in Ireland or the Irish media.

Absolute strawman.

ClanofLams

Former Former wrote: »

Again, blown up to be way more than it was and again, some idiot (in New Zealand again) posting a meme on an Insta feed isn't proving that there was a 'furore' of racial hatred, certainly not in Ireland or the Irish media.

Absolute strawman.

Convenient it was some young NZ guy for the Irish website. There’s apparently no editors or anything on that site and some young employee can just post what he wants on their social media platforms.

Have a look at social media on Irish match days, there’s still racist comments being made by Irish people and there was a lot more being made when he first qualified.

How can one quantify levels of outrage? I'm purely going on my own observations

Former Former

Former Former wrote: »

Apart from the lazy and complete bollocks assertion that Aki gets more stick because he's not white. That p*sses me off.

I actually think this is remarkably naive from you.

I doubt the rugby community cared, but plenty outside of the rugby community added their voice to the cacophony of complaints, and no doubt some of this was racially driven.

A minority for sure, but a minority that probably had little to say about CJ.

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

I actually think this is remarkably naive from you.

I doubt the rugby community cared, but plenty outside of the rugby community added their voice to the cacophony of complaints, and no doubt some of this was racially driven.

A minority for sure, but a minority that probably had little to say about CJ.

agreed.... its naive not to think (know) theres a racial undercurrent in a lot of social media commentary on subjects like this, which exposes the inherent racism in a lot of people on this island.

Former Former

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I actually think this is remarkably naive from you.

I doubt the rugby community cared, but plenty outside of the rugby community added their voice to the cacophony of complaints, and no doubt some of this was racially driven.

A minority for sure, but a minority that probably had little to say about CJ.

Give me an example. I honestly don't think this is true.

You look at the most vocal critics in the media of project players (eg Francis, Fitzgerald) and they're 100% consistent on it, regardless of whether the guy is SA or NZ, white or otherwise.

I'm not aware of anyone who singled out Aki because he's not white.

sydthebeat

Former Former wrote: »

Give me an example. I honestly don't think this is true.

You look at the most vocal critics in the media of project players (eg Francis, Fitzgerald) and they're 100% consistent on it, regardless of whether the guy is SA or NZ, white or otherwise.

I'm not aware of anyone who singled out Aki

youre focusing solely on the media.... the people arguing with you are not.... we are speaking of the general commentary out there

Riskymove

sydthebeat wrote: »

youre focusing solely on the media.... the people arguing with you are not.... we are speaking of the general commentary out there

Racists exist

including here in Ireland, inevitably more vocal in anonymous online platforms

Their issue is not rugby or the residency rule, they are simply racists

I am not sure we should be aligning the two issues

sydthebeat

Riskymove wrote: »

Racists exist

including here in Ireland, inevitably more vocal in anonymous online platforms

Their issue is not rugby or the residency rule, they are simply racists

I am not sure we should be aligning the two issues

aligning the two issues??
are you saying racists cant be rugby fans? or racists cannot speak about rugby? that would be an incredibly naive view to take.

this whole argument is coming from an article in which gerry thornley make sthe point that

for some reason Bundee Aki’s presence in the Irish team seems to cop more flak than other past and present Irish players who qualified via the residency route.

now, its completely acceptable to say that part of this "for some reason" is down to aki's obvious different appearance to others who qualified before him, coupled with the pervasive neo-nationalist agenda made popular again in trumps american, brexit england etc.... and the access to anonymous social media of these people who have inherent racist tendencies.

AdamD

Kleyn's got more attention than both. Its more nuanced than skin colour, even if its a minor factor.

Bundee coming after Stander might have made it worse too, the more project players qualifying for Ireland the more people are getting annoyed about it.

ClanofLams

AdamD wrote: »

Kleyn's got more attention than both. Its more nuanced than skin colour, even if its a minor factor.

Bundee coming after Stander might have made it worse too, the more project players qualifying for Ireland the more people are getting annoyed about it.

He didn’t. He got a couple of days of it which was to do to the unusual circumstances (just qualified player picked for World Cup ahead of stalwart).

Aki got weeks of it leading up to a November series and still frequently has racist remarks made about him on social media on match days.

Riskymove

sydthebeat wrote: »

are you saying racists cant be rugby fans? or racists cannot speak about rugby? that would be an incredibly naive view to take.

of course there are racist rugby fans

My point is that the reality is that they are likely to have an issue with someone who looks like Aki playing for Ireland rather than anything to do with the nationality

I assume a racist would be making similar comments about an Irish born person who was non-white

If they have issues with Aki but not white people who have qualified then their "commentary" is not really about NIQ and residency rules but the colour of players skin and should be viewed with the contempt that deserves and not be viewed as in the mix of commentary about the residency rule or project players etc.

ClanofLams

Riskymove wrote: »

of course there are racist rugby fans

My point is that the reality is that they are likely to have an issue with someone who looks like Aki playing for Ireland rather than anything to do with the nationality

I assume a racist would be making similar comments about an Irish born person who was non-white

If they have issues with Aki but not white people who have qualified then their "commentary" is not really about NIQ and residency rules but the colour of players skin and should be viewed with the contempt that deserves and not be viewed as in the mix of commentary about the residency rule or project players etc.

The debate is around Thornleys statement though that Aki cops more flak than other similar cases. That statement is correct.

Of course your point that they don’t care about residency rules is also correct.

ionadnapokot

Rugby! World Cup! Almost upon us...Oh Yes!!
Will it be CJ or Conan at 8?

shootermacg

Riskymove wrote: »

Racists exist

including here in Ireland, inevitably more vocal in anonymous online platforms

Their issue is not rugby or the residency rule, they are simply racists

I am not sure we should be aligning the two issues

From memory, I think Aki got more stick because of the non committal interview he gave prior to donning the green. I think at that stage a lot of Irish pundits said, well fine, the guy doesn't even care about playing for the country.

Can't really find much on the subject, but I do remember it raised my eyebrows a touch.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/bundee-aki-has-no-idea-if-he-will-declare-for-ireland-35342777.html

Clareman

I really hope the weather doesn't kick in and we get left with a 0-0 draw.

Riskymove

ClanofLams wrote: »

The debate is around Thornleys statement though that Aki cops more flak than other similar cases. That statement is correct.

yes it is because as I said racists exist

but is important not to give that some sort of legitimacy in the discussion around the issue of players becoming Irish qualified

I think they would be giving Aki flak and making comments about him even if he was irish born

I think the same happens to any high profile person who is not white

schmoo2k

In my case I disagree with the rule as it stands - but do appreciate its out of the IRFUs hands and they would be foolish to not avail of it...

But at some point an immigrant does transition to being a citizen (unless your a Dub in Cork), you only have to look at Joes comment about staying on in Ireland after he stands down.

I suspect no matter what the "rule" is, there will be an element of gaming the system and it is probably that angle I don't like (esp. in ref to the south pacific islands).

Side note - I was moved when I watched Aki get his first cap and how much is meant to him, Kleyn not so much - built in bias, I dunno...

Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

The debate is around Thornleys statement though that Aki cops more flak than other similar cases. That statement is correct.

Of course your point that they don’t care about residency rules is also correct.

I think some people got more upset at the criticism of Aki but the actual criticism itself was much the same.

shootermacg

Riskymove wrote: »

I think they would be giving Aki flak and making comments about him even if he was irish born

I think the same happens to any high profile person who is not white

Really? I don't remember Zebo getting any flack, lets not lose the run of ourselves.

ionadnapokot

Former Former wrote: »

I think some people got more upset at the criticism of Aki but the actual criticism itself was much the same.

come on! give over! we all know the reasons. but what are you really pissed about? the fact that GT wrote a good article?
Its WC week! Lets get excited about the good stuff!

Shefwedfan

I think people are trying to find a problem where in reality it doesn't exist.....

Ok so some plonkers on facebook lose the run of themselves but you will also see the same guys arguing with someone the colour is black or white. That is just facebook.

Kleyn for one had a bigger reaction from everyone to getting capped compared to Aki. The last time this was brought up in any big deal was Luke Fitz after the 2015 WC and that had nothing to do with Aki.....that was Jared Payne.....

sydthebeat

Riskymove wrote: »

yes it is because as I said racists exist

but is important not to give that some sort of legitimacy in the discussion around the issue of players becoming Irish qualified

I think they would be giving Aki flak and making comments about him even if he was irish born

I think the same happens to any high profile person who is not white

no one is trying to legitimate racism in the discussion.... all im doing is noting that both in what i read online and in what i heard in pubs etc, that his appearance was a factor in the discussion ... and just offering that to FF who seems to think it doesnt exist.

Riskymove

sydthebeat wrote: »

all im doing is noting that both in what i read online and in what i heard in pubs etc, that his appearance was a factor in the discussion ... .

of course it is and I doubt FF is of the view that racists don't exist

but because they exist there will be more reaction and comments to anything to do with Aki or others who look like him by such people in pubs and trolling on social media

but all I'm saying is that it shouldn't be given any credence in discussions about residency and qualification and on the flip side that we should be careful in suggesting that people against the idea of Aki qualifying are doing so simply because they are racist

and like others have said perhaps we should all just move on back to the rugby

ionadnapokot

Clareman wrote: »

I really hope the weather doesn't kick in and we get left with a 0-0 draw.

it'll be grand. warm rain is all!

https://www.yr.no/place/Japan/Kanagawa/Yokohama/long.html

arsebiscuits1

shootermacg wrote: »

Really? I don't remember Zebo getting any flack, lets not lose the run of ourselves.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/ulster-hand-lifetime-ban-to-spectator-over-simon-zebo-abuse-1.3766890

Riskymove

ionadnapokot wrote: »

it'll be grand. warm rain is all!

https://www.yr.no/place/Japan/Kanagawa/Yokohama/long.html

5mm of rain on Saturday could lead to flooding - hopefully they are protecting the pitch

Former Former

sydthebeat wrote: »

no one is trying to legitimate racism in the discussion.... all im doing is noting that both in what i read online and in what i heard in pubs etc, that his appearance was a factor in the discussion ... and just offering that to FF who seems to think it doesnt exist.

See, that's not what I'm saying at all.

But it's very easy to throw that at me.

Which is sort of my point about the criticism of Aki.

sydthebeat

Former Former wrote: »

See, that's not what I'm saying at all.

But it's very easy to throw that at me.

Which is sort of my point about the criticism of Aki.

not a factor in the discussion????

you literally said it here....

Apart from the lazy and complete bollocks assertion that Aki gets more stick because he's not white. That p*sses me off.

stephen_n

shootermacg wrote: »

Really? I don't remember Zebo getting any flack, lets not lose the run of ourselves.

He did in Ulster.

ionadnapokot

Riskymove wrote: »

5mm of rain on Saturday could lead to flooding - hopefully they are protecting the pitch

5mm in 6 hours isnt allot.
Even 11 mm in 12hr wouldnt flood it

ClanofLams

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think people are trying to find a problem where in reality it doesn't exist.....

Ok so some plonkers on facebook lose the run of themselves but you will also see the same guys arguing with someone the colour is black or white. That is just facebook.

Kleyn for one had a bigger reaction from everyone to getting capped compared to Aki. The last time this was brought up in any big deal was Luke Fitz after the 2015 WC and that had nothing to do with Aki.....that was Jared Payne.....

Aki got a much greater volume of criticism over a longer time period. There was more time to build up to it. Zero was left out so all of Munster was pissed and many decided to use Aki for some reason in their argument.

For example Donal Lenihan said Akis inclusion when Zebo was not highlighted the ‘warped nature of international rugby’. He made no comment on Standers inclusion then or previously. In the independent Ruaidhri o Connor wrote an article along the same lines.

Neil Francis and Luke Fitzgerald were banging on about it. There was off the ball segments dedicated to it. This was over the course of a few weeks. Peter O’Mahony commented that it wasn’t a good look for so much to be made of Akis inclusion in comparison to those who had gone down the same path before him. I think he has a fair grasp on how much media attention these players attract.

Kleyn got two days of it last week from Fitzgerald and Francis mainly. Not comparable at all.

Race was certainly a factor in some of the criticism eg ultimate rugby image and social media posts. Ultimate rugby then blamed it on some young kiwi journalist known only by his first name and claimed no one else in staff had seen it despite it being on their social media platforms for a day.

shootermacg

ClanofLams wrote: »

Aki got a much greater volume of criticism over a longer time period. There was more time to build up to it. Zero was left out so all of Munster was pissed and many decided to use Aki for some reason in their argument.

For example Donal Lenihan said Akis inclusion when Zebo was not highlighted the ‘warped nature of international rugby’. He made no comment on Standers inclusion then or previously. In the independent Ruaidhri o Connor wrote an article along the same lines.

Neil Francis and Luke Fitzgerald were banging on about it. There was off the hall segments dedicated to it. This was over the course of a few weeks. Peter o Mahoney commented that it wasn’t a good look for so much to be made of Akis inclusion in comparison to those who had gone down the same path before him. I think he has a fair grasp on how much media attention these players attract.

Kleyn got two days of it last week from Fitzgerald and Francis mainly. Not comparable at all.

Race was certainly a factor in some of the criticism eg ultimate rugby image and social media posts. Ultimate rugby then blamed it on some young kiwi journalist known only by his first name and claimed no one else in staff had seen it despite it being on their social media platforms for a day.

I think plenty of guys on here don't like the 3 year rule and would prefer their players to be 100% home grown.
Given the parochial nature of sport in Ireland, this is perfectly understandable and given that all sport boils down to "We are better than you", it's even more understandable.

Sure there are racists in every country, but I'm not sure racism made up enough of a percentage to justify all the posts on the topic.

I myself am happy to accept any player that bleeds for my country.

Captain_Crash

Am I the only one thinking a postponement wouldn't be the worst thing on Sun? If any game is to be postponed I'd pick the Scotland one.... We'll still be odds on to win the group and have SA in the QF so if anything one less game in a mudbath could be a bonus for us recovery wise!

shootermacg

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Am I the only one thinking a postponement wouldn't be the worst thing on Sun? If any game is to be postponed I'd pick the Scotland one.... We'll still be odds on to win the group and have SA in the QF so if anything one less game in a mudbath could be a bonus for us recovery wise!

Don't think that's how it works though is it? Isn't it just marked as a draw?

salmocab

Is this normal weather for Japan at this time of year or is this freak stuff?

ClanofLams

shootermacg wrote: »

I think plenty of guys on here don't like the 3 year rule and would prefer their players to be 100% home grown.
Given the parochial nature of sport in Ireland, this is perfectly understandable and given that all sport boils down to "We are better than you", it's even more understandable.

Sure there are racists in every country, but I'm not sure racism made up enough of a percentage to justify all the posts on the topic.

I myself am happy to accept any player that bleeds for my country.

I’m certainly not saying race was a factor in the majority of criticism. Thornley is right however and Peter O’Mahony was right at the time - Aki gets more flak generally and he certainly received more attention that any player before or since.

Podge_irl

shootermacg wrote: »

Don't think that's how it works though is it? Isn't it just marked as a draw?

Yes. Which, assuming Scotland beat Japan, means that it would be a points difference race which I wouldn't be too thrilled about I gotta say.

Captain_Crash

shootermacg wrote: »

Don't think that's how it works though is it? Isn't it just marked as a draw?

Exactly it goes down as a draw, so we'd get two points. Lets call a spade a spade were likely gonna outscore Scotland in the other games and win the pool on pts diff anyway so one less game wouldn't hurt! (I have to stress, I'm not saying I want a postponement, I'm just saying that its not the worst thing that could happen)

S.M.B.

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Exactly it goes down as a draw, so we'd get two points. Lets call a spade a spade were likely gonna outscore Scotland in the other games and win the pool on pts diff anyway so one less game wouldn't hurt! (I have to stress, I'm not saying I want a postponement, I'm just saying that its not the worst thing that could happen)

I wouldn't be too happy with Scotland going into their Japan game knowing that if they win by X points they top the group even if X is a significantly high number.

salmocab

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Exactly it goes down as a draw, so we'd get two points. Lets call a spade a spade were likely gonna outscore Scotland in the other games and win the pool on pts diff anyway so one less game wouldn't hurt! (I have to stress, I'm not saying I want a postponement, I'm just saying that its not the worst thing that could happen)

I suppose it’s the best game for it to happen in.

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

I’m certainly not saying race was a factor in the majority of criticism. Thornley is right however and Peter O’Mahony was right at the time - Aki gets more flak generally and he certainly received more attention that any player before or since.

If you look hard and want to find a problem....you will find a problem.....


Anythign I seen or heard was about Aki as a player. He could be called John O'Reilly but people thought Ireland had better options in Henshaw/Ringrose. At the moment that has changed and now Aki is the form player



Over the course of all that conversation I havent heard anything that would suggestion racism or that he is getting overly critised as he is resident rule player.....