Ireland Team Talk X: The Long Hard Road to a Semi. MOD WARNING POSTS #1, #1474, #5707

Captain_Crash

S.M.B. wrote: »

I wouldn't be too happy with Scotland going into their Japan game knowing that if they win by X points they top the group even if X is a significantly high number.

Scotland V Japan is a shootout tho. In Murryfield its a Scotland win everyday of the week!



But its not in Murryfield, it's in Japan and SCO have a terrible record away from home, Japan are the host nation playing to a massive partisan crowd with a chance to beat another Tier 1 nation and a World Cup, and this time qualify from the group!



That type of incentive doesn't even need a teamtalk! I still have Scotland winning, but it'll be a closer game than we'd expect and Japan will throw everything at them!

D.Q

World Rugby have come out and said no games are in jeopardy this weekend

ClanofLams

Shefwedfan wrote: »

If you look hard and want to find a problem....you will find a problem.....


Anythign I seen or heard was about Aki as a player. He could be called John O'Reilly but people thought Ireland had better options in Henshaw/Ringrose. At the moment that has changed and now Aki is the form player



Over the course of all that conversation I havent heard anything that would suggestion racism or that he is getting overly critised as he is resident rule player.....

The debate about who should start is irrelevant - no idea why you are mentioning that.

You said Aki received no more attention than anyone else in regards to being a project player - I have given numerous examples above that he did.

Peter O’Mahony isn’t the sort to make comments rashly and he was correct in his comments that Aki received more attention than anyone else and that it wasn’t a good look.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DbW2WRErq_g

antietam1

sydthebeat wrote: »

absolutely, but thats not what Thornley was referring to.... there was a marked difference in reaction to Aki qualifying over stander and even Roux...... even if it was in the sewer of FB

Some lady journo was annoyed because we were so happy and impressed that Ian McKinley got capped by Italy and not so much for Bundi.
Which makes us racists, I have been expecting great things of Ian for 12 years now, only heard of Bundi a few years ago.

bilston

Riskymove wrote: »

5mm of rain on Saturday could lead to flooding - hopefully they are protecting the pitch

5mm or 50mm?

Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

lines.

Neil Francis and Luke Fitzgerald were banging on about it. There was off the ball segments dedicated to it. This was over the course of a few weeks. Peter O’Mahony commented that it wasn’t a good look for so much to be made of Akis inclusion in comparison to those who had gone down the same path before him. I think he has a fair grasp on how much media attention these players attract.

You've absolutely proved my point.

Fitzgerald has been incredibly consistent on this issue. He had a meltdown on live TV last season about Roux. He was going ballistic about Joe Tomane (not a project) being picked ahead of academy guys.

Francis has been banging the same drum even louder and for much longer. I still cringe when I think about his Michael Bent articles.

The difference is in YOUR perception of the same criticism being levelled at Aki. You don't like hearing him being knocked so it hits home much harder for you than it would some other player. Which is fair enough, human nature.

However, it's not fair to call these guys racist when they're absolutely consistent in how they treat everyone regardless of skin colour.

It's you that's treating Aki differently, not them, which again is fine, but calling these guys racist is incredibly unfair and untrue.

ClanofLams

Former Former wrote: »

You've absolutely proved my point.

Fitzgerald has been incredibly consistent on this issue. He had a meltdown on live TV last season about Roux. He was going ballistic about Joe Tomane (not a project) being picked ahead of academy guys.

Francis has been banging the same drum even louder and for much longer. I still cringe when I think about his Michael Bent articles.

The difference is in YOUR perception of the same criticism being levelled at Aki. You don't like hearing him being knocked so it hits home much harder for you than it would some other player. Which is fair enough, human nature.

However, it's not fair to call these guys racist when they're absolutely consistent in how they treat everyone regardless of skin colour.

It's you that's treating Aki differently, not them

I was including them as examples of the volume of criticism. I am aware that both are consistent on the matter. I was making the point that they were mainly the critics of Kleyn and Aki had similar in addition to much greater coverage than Kleyn in other quarters.

There were many others making points who have not been heard of since in relation to project players.

As I said already Peter O’Mahony said he had received more attention than anyone before him and that it wasn’t a good look. I think he likely has a better understanding of the levels of attention Ireland players are receiving than anyone posting on here.

Edit - You cut out my paragraph at he end of the post saying race was a factor in SOME of the criticism - I clearly wasn’t accusing Fitzgerald or Francis of being racist

Wegians89

Really looking forward to the amount of rugby that’s going to be on over the next few weeks. Expecting big things from Ireland. Sick of the project players debate though. Bundee snd stander wear the jersey with as much pride as any other player and put in as much effort. Doesn’t matter what anyone says or thinks about them.

Will the team announcement be Thursday or Friday?

ClanofLams

Former Former wrote: »

You've absolutely proved my point.

Fitzgerald has been incredibly consistent on this issue. He had a meltdown on live TV last season about Roux. He was going ballistic about Joe Tomane (not a project) being picked ahead of academy guys.

Francis has been banging the same drum even louder and for much longer. I still cringe when I think about his Michael Bent articles.

The difference is in YOUR perception of the same criticism being levelled at Aki. You don't like hearing him being knocked so it hits home much harder for you than it would some other player. Which is fair enough, human nature.

However, it's not fair to call these guys racist when they're absolutely consistent in how they treat everyone regardless of skin colour.

It's you that's treating Aki differently, not them, which again is fine, but calling these guys racist is incredibly unfair and untrue.

Suggesting I am calling them racist is complete bullsh*t. You didn’t even have the decency to quote me fully where I said some was race related and specifically mentioned Ultimate Rugby and social media. Did you see who I didn’t mention in that paragraph?

That’s either very disingenuous or completely moronic.

irishbucsfan

Hang on are we denying the existence of racism around the country now? I'd say hop in for a trip with a few Dublin taxi drivers there and see how you get on

Fantastisch

Lads wtf is going on in training for these injuries

FFS henshaw then rob k every day it's someone else

Shefwedfan

ClanofLams wrote: »

The debate about who should start is irrelevant - no idea why you are mentioning that.

You said Aki received no more attention than anyone else in regards to being a project player - I have given numerous examples above that he did.

Peter O’Mahony isn’t the sort to make comments rashly and he was correct in his comments that Aki received more attention than anyone else and that it wasn’t a good look.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DbW2WRErq_g

Did he say he received more? As vague goes that interview is vague....he was put a specific question which he answers

If you want to read more into it off you go, from my point of view any player getting qualified has come under the same scrutiny and the same topic comes up....every single time

It wasn’t any difference with Payne, Stander etc....I think Kleyn has got it worse as it was 2 days after and then Toner got dropped...

ClanofLams

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Did he say he received more? As vague goes that interview is vague....he was put a specific question which he answers

If you want to read more into it off you go, from my point of view any player getting qualified has come under the same scrutiny and the same topic comes up....every single time

It wasn’t any difference with Payne, Stander etc....I think Kleyn has got it worse as it was 2 days after and then Toner got dropped...

‘I didn’t understand why there was such a focus on him personally. I didn’t think it was very impressive from a media point of view’.

That’s about as damning as O’Mahony can be without causing a massive controversy. If he didn’t think it was an issue he would just say Bundee is working hard and a big addition etc.

He received much more attention than anyone else. I’m not a massive Thornley fan but he didn’t just make that up out of nowhere ffs.

accensi0n

They're all green lads. Come on!

sydthebeat

accensi0n wrote: »

They're all green lads. Come on!

No one is arguing they aren't... Actually the complete opposite is being argued.

We're praising the Thornley article which makes this exact point.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Any good daily podcasts?

Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

Suggesting I am calling them racist is complete bullsh*t. You didn’t even have the decency to quote me fully where I said some was race related and specifically mentioned Ultimate Rugby and social media. Did you see who I didn’t mention in that paragraph?

That’s either very disingenuous or completely moronic.

See, this is my issue.

Ok, you're not calling Fitzgerald and Francis racist. Agreed

You also mentioned Donal Lenihan who dislikes Aki but loves Zebo. So he's ok with Afro-Caribbean-Irish but Samoan-NZ is out? That's either some incredibly specific racism or maybe he's not racist either.

But if you take him out too, we're just back to vague accusations against the "media" and we've come around in a circle.

So we still don't have a real example of someone singling out Aki because of race

The Rape of Lucretia

shootermacg wrote: »

From memory, I think Aki got more stick because of the non committal interview he gave prior to donning the green.

This was the source of much of it. It was just rubbing peoples faces in the fact that he was just a pro rugby player, chasing the highest paycheck, who not making the grade for the team he would have liked to play for, chose Ireland as an expedient next best that at least pays well. Some people do still like the old fashioned idea of people representing their own country, and find that type of mercenary attitude repulsive.
To be fair to him though, he is probably little different to others who just watch their words more closely and peddle a different line about loving Ireland, Leinster, Limerick, the Irish craic, or maidens dancing at the crossroads.
Kleyn would have raised displeasure at his fast track displacement of a proper Irish man whatever the rugby form might say.

Shefwedfan

Former Former wrote: »

See, this is my issue.

Ok, you're not calling Fitzgerald and Francis racist. Agreed

You also mentioned Donal Lenihan who dislikes Aki but loves Zebo. So he's ok with Afro-Caribbean-Irish but Samoan-NZ is out? That's either some incredibly specific racism or maybe he's not racist either.

But if you take him out too, we're just back to vague accusations against the "media" and we've come around in a circle.

So we still don't have a real example of someone singling out Aki because of race

We don’t take into consideration that Lenihan might like players from a certain province....

I 100% agree with you but some people like to read more into everything and if you want to find a problem then you will

It seems in this case some people want to read more into this, let them off

sydthebeat

Again, some people are only focusing on media... Whereas others are referring to a much wider experience

ClanofLams

Former Former wrote: »

See, this is my issue.

Ok, you're not calling Fitzgerald and Francis racist. Agreed

You also mentioned Donal Lenihan who dislikes Aki but loves Zebo. So he's ok with Afro-Caribbean-Irish but Samoan-NZ is out? That's either some incredibly specific racism or maybe he's not racist either.

But if you take him out too, we're just back to vague accusations against the "media" and we've come around in a circle.

So we still don't have a real example of someone singling out Aki because of race

Thanks for agreeing to that. Kind of you after making a baseless accusation to retract with such grace.

In relation to Donal Lenihan i was making the point there were a variety of factors why aki received such scrutiny including Munster supporters being annoyed about Zebo’s exclusion.

You’re the only one here who seems to be focused on just the media, that wasn’t what Thornley was on about. The ultimate rugby post certainly had racial undertones at a minimum, them blaming it on some NZ young ‘employee’ who is only referred to by his first name and claiming no one else on staff saw this post that was on their social media platforms for a day doesn’t detract from that.

There were outright racist posts on social media about Aki. He is singled out frequently even on Twitter when Ireland won the grand slam there were posts about aki being Irish and nothing about stander. Race is a factor in all of these.

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

Again, some people are only focusing on media... Whereas others are referring to a much wider experience

Exactly this. Thornley didn’t say this, no one on here said it. It’s idiotic.

LowOdour

Maybe slightly off topic, but does anyone know any Irish newspaper doing a world cup supplement this week, or were they all in the Sundays last weekend?

Also, anywhere to watch all the games online...and by that I mean paying a fee to watch and possibly cast to TV.

Kevski

Stuff.nz have written a bit of a pointless article detailing the number of overseas born players each team has. They’ve counted 5 Irish players...

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/114302412/rugby-world-cup-scotland-and-australia-top-the-charts-for-most-overseas-born-players

sydthebeat

Counting English born Welsh players just makes a mockery of whatever point they are trying to make..

ionadnapokot

LowOdour wrote: »

Maybe slightly off topic, but does anyone know any Irish newspaper doing a world cup supplement this week, or were they all in the Sundays last weekend?

Also, anywhere to watch all the games online...and by that I mean paying a fee to watch and possibly cast to TV.

Irish Times will have one this week I think.
I’m sure GT will do a nice "racist" piece. Yawn

Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

Thanks for agreeing to that. Kind of you after making a baseless accusation to retract with such grace.

In relation to Donal Lenihan i was making the point there were a variety of factors why aki received such scrutiny including Munster supporters being annoyed about Zebo’s exclusion.

You’re the only one here who seems to be focused on just the media, that wasn’t what Thornley was on about. The ultimate rugby post certainly had racial undertones at a minimum, them blaming it on some NZ young ‘employee’ who is only referred to by his first name and claiming no one else on staff saw this post that was on their social media platforms for a day doesn’t detract from that.

There were outright racist posts on social media about Aki. He is singled out frequently even on Twitter when Ireland won the grand slam there were posts about aki being Irish and nothing about stander. Race is a factor in all of these.

In fairness, you were the one who brought up Lenihan, Francis and Fitzgerald as evidence of Aki being treated differently, so I'm not the only one bringing up the media.

I just pointed out you were wrong on lumping them in with whatever you've seen on social media which I don't doubt has plenty of racists on it.

ionadnapokot

ClanofLams

Former Former wrote: »

In fairness, you were the one who brought up Lenihan, Francis and Fitzgerald as evidence of Aki being treated differently, so I'm not the only one bringing up the media.

I just pointed out you were wrong on lumping them in with whatever you've seen on social media which I don't doubt has plenty of racists on it.

I brought it up on a point about a volume of criticism levelled at Aki and acknowledged Zebo was left out causing Lenihans outburst.

I had an entire separate paragraph that referred to criticism in which race was a factor which made no mention to any of those and specifically referred to other examples. How anyone could infer I was suggesting lenihan or Fitzgerald or Francis were racist is beyond my understanding.

salmocab

Any more on Addisons dog?

Squidgy Black

salmocab wrote: »

Any more on Addisons dog?

irishbucsfan

That's not a dog, its a small horse

Auldloon

I hope that’s an Irish born dog.

Squidgy Black

Auldloon wrote: »

I hope that’s an Irish born dog.

It's granny was an Irish Red Setter.

Downlinz

Former Former wrote: »

You've absolutely proved my point.

Fitzgerald has been incredibly consistent on this issue. He had a meltdown on live TV last season about Roux. He was going ballistic about Joe Tomane (not a project) being picked ahead of academy guys.

Francis has been banging the same drum even louder and for much longer. I still cringe when I think about his Michael Bent articles.

The difference is in YOUR perception of the same criticism being levelled at Aki. You don't like hearing him being knocked so it hits home much harder for you than it would some other player. Which is fair enough, human nature.

However, it's not fair to call these guys racist when they're absolutely consistent in how they treat everyone regardless of skin colour.

It's you that's treating Aki differently, not them, which again is fine, but calling these guys racist is incredibly unfair and untrue.

Luke Fitzgerald has always claimed his issue was with players outside the system coming in and taking the place of those who have done their time and worked their way up the system.
If that was true then why does he never raise an issue with Will Addison or Mike Haley? They've spent less time in Ireland than Kleyn has so why has he never accused them of being English when he did to Kleyn as South African?

It's hard to believe his motivation is anything other than racial when you look at who he targets and it's a constant among those who oppose the project player rule but support the granny rule.

Shefwedfan

Downlinz wrote: »

Luke Fitzgerald has always claimed his issue was with players outside the system coming in and taking the place of those who have done their time and worked their way up the system.
If that was true then why does he never raise an issue with Will Addison or Mike Haley? They've spent less time in Ireland than Kleyn has so why has he never accused them of being English when he did to Kleyn as South African?

It's hard to believe his motivation is anything other than racial when you look at who he targets and it's a constant among those who oppose the project player rule but support the granny rule.

Luke does this at strategic times to promote his podcast, WC coming up and fire this up. Neither Haley or Addison are in squad so irrelevant

He will drive a few extra listeners and it will die down

Then in a few months, year he will need to get the numbers up again and he will fire it out....same outrage etc

The first time he mentioned this was......guesses on post card......at the launch of his fancy new podcast.....

Luke is not a dope and knows this gets people talking so he will use for his own good....in reality his mates are BOD etc who are either retired or nearly retired so they don’t give a s**t....

damianmcr

Good to see the thread hasnt forgotten about Wills dog.

Lovely looking isnt it.

Zzippy

Mod: I think we've had enough of the project player malarkey. Whatever your feelings on it, be you racist or the most multicultural liberal, the RWC is starting this week and there are more important things to discuss. Like, actual rugby. Proceed.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? The England romp is a perfect example of a match fit team vs a non-match fit team.

The England romp was a better team beating up a lesser team by totally out muscling them in forwards and backs. Nothing to do with 'form' which is an ether-like creation assigned retrospectively to explain performance. Ireland simply cannot cope with a full force England these days, with a first string, let alone when we have a bunch of second stringers blended in.
The prime drminer of our chances against the real teams is whether our best 15 are fit to field. It's far more critical than any mythical 'match fitness'. 'Fitness' outranks it by a factor of a hundred.
Henshaw, for example, needs no match time in the group games if that's what it takes to have him face the Abs. Fielding him fit, is what is vital to our chances. Ditto Bobster.

Sanjuro

Earls and Kearney not ruled out for Scotland. Henshaw should be back in contention for Japan. According to Andy Farrell.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The England romp was a better team beating up a lesser team by totally out muscling them in forwards and backs. Nothing to do with 'form' which is an ether-like creation assigned retrospectively to explain performance. Ireland simply cannot cope with a full force England these days, with a first string, let alone when we have a bunch of second stringers blended in.
The prime drminer of our chances against the real teams is whether our best 15 are fit to field. It's far more critical than any mythical 'match fitness'. 'Fitness' outranks it by a factor of a hundred.
Henshaw, for example, needs no match time in the group games if that's what it takes to have him face the Abs. Fielding him fit, is what is vital to our chances. Ditto Bobster.

Not sure what to say to this. Match fitness is not mythical.

molloyjh

Good news on the injury front. Carbery back too. Looking forward to this one now. We'll probably field something like:

Healy Best Furlong
Ryan Kleyn
POM Stander VDF

Murray Sexton
Aki Ringrose
Stockdale Kearney Earls

Cronin, Kilcoyne, Porter, Henderson, Ruddock, McGrath, Carbery, Larmour

Not a bad bench at all that, especially up front.

aloooof

Kearney and Earls passed fit but Henshaw out.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2019/0918/1076638-kearney-earls-ireland-scotland/

aloooof

Just realised the Katie Taylor fight is on the same day as the RWC final, reminiscent of the 09 Grand Slam and Bernard Dunne winning a world title. The stars are aligning, lads!

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

Just realised the Katie Taylor fight is on the same day as the RWC final, reminiscent of the 09 Grand Slam and Bernard Dunne winning a world title. The stars are aligning, lads!

I got a call at half time during that match to say that there was a spare ticket for the fight.

I've almost zero interest in boxing but went along. Couple of the GrandSlam squad were in attendance believe it or not.

Great day of sport, I have moral issues with boxing but I enjoyed the experience. Interesting crowd!

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

Kearney and Earls passed fit but Henshaw out.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2019/0918/1076638-kearney-earls-ireland-scotland/

Irish Times going with Larmour and Conway to start.

Kailyn Jolly Mascot

Kailyn Jolly Mascot wrote: »

Irish Times going with Larmour and Conway to start.

That's some reward for Conway getting ahead of Stockdale

UnknownSpecies

Deleted User wrote: »

That's some reward for Conway getting ahead of Stockdale

IT reporting Conway at full back with Larmour and Stockdale on the wings.

arsebiscuits1

Even though the worry is over about the game being cancelled, it did get me thinking... would a 0-0 draw suit us?

Obviously I want to see rugby being played and I don't think we will lose to Scotland.

But if we were given 2 points each it would make for a fascinating next few weeks of trying to obliterate every team to try get that points difference which would make for some interesting rugby.

I think Japan will beat Scotland too

Shefwedfan

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Even though the worry is over about the game being cancelled, it did get me thinking... would a 0-0 draw suit us?

Obviously I want to see rugby being played and I don't think we will lose to Scotland.

But if we were given 2 points each it would make for a fascinating next few weeks of trying to obliterate every team to try get that points difference which would make for some interesting rugby.

I think Japan will beat Scotland too

No a 0-0 draw would suit Scotland more than us